Greece steal Paeonia's name

[Epirot]

If one say that modern 'Ellinas' inherit only the bad habits of their ancestors, then he is not far from the truth. The Albanian insurgents who rose up against Ottoman yoke were called pejoratively as 'Klephts'. Hence, their name derive from the basic root κλέπτειν (kleptein), which means "to steal' (See furthermore: kleptomania and kleptocracy are related terms).

Now let us see how modern 'Ellinas' celebrate this ancestral "virtue"?

Greek official and non-official circles often accuse Macedonians that 'stole' a name that is supposed to be associated with 'Greek' culture, identity, etc, etc. But I'd like to see the reverse side of coin: From 1990's onwards, Greek policies aim to 'purify' the foreign names found in Aegean Macedonia by reviving ancient toponymes.

They rename a region in Kilikis unit as Paionia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paionia_(municipality)

Paionia (Greek: Παιονία) is a municipality in the Kilkis peripheral unit, Central Macedonia, Greece. The seat of the municipality is the town Polykastro.[2] The municipality is named after the ancient region of Paeonia.

Indeed it's historically ascertained that neither Macedonia, nor Paeonia were related to Hellenes. More exactly, most of Paeonia territorially was situated in north of today's Greece. What's the right of 'Ellinas' to revive such a name that has no link with them?

[Voltron]

We dont claim to be Paonians Epirot. Its used as a geographical reference.
I thought thats pretty obvious.

[Epirot]

We dont claim to be Paonians Epirot. Its used as a geographical reference.
I thought thats pretty obvious.

But this doesn't change anything because my point was that Greece revive ancient non-Greek names and put forth absurd claims either for lineal continuity or for hellenic being of peoples who bore these names.

As far as I know, in Greek historical books, Paeonians are being portrayed as 'Greeks' or heavily influenced by Hellenism. Can you say that they are used only as 'geographical reference'?

Take a look how your historians claim them:

Undoubtedly the names Paion and Paionia have Greek roots like 7taT?, 7raiav. Probably they come from an Achaian tribe...

The Hellenism of the ancient MacedoniansApostolos Vasileiou Daskalakēs
Institute for Balkan Studies, 1965

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

But this doesn't change anything because my point was that Greece revive ancient non-Greek names and put forth absurd claims either for lineal continuity or for hellenic being of peoples who bore these names.

what is wrong with reviving names Epirot ? I think your overexaggerating on this.

As far as I know, in Greek historical books, Paeonians are being portrayed as 'Greeks' or heavily influenced by Hellenism. Can you say that they are used only as 'geographical reference'?

I dont think anybody here claims to be Paeonian Epirot. As a matter of fact if Macedonians today would identify as such, it would be welcomed with open arms.

[George S.]

Votron you are totally wrong. The greeks beleive that paeonia belongs to them they think
that long time ago the paeonians were greeks.THe greeks were not satisfied with the land grab in 1913 if anything they want their supposedly greek paeonia.

[Risto the Great]

Par for the course with Greeks unfortunately.
Geographic reference vs cultural reference vs political reference etc.
Voltron, why was this name chosen?
Can you please definitively let us know how/why the choice was made?

[Soldier of Macedon]

As a matter of fact if Macedonians today would identify as such, it would be welcomed with open arms.

On the flip side, if certain Greeks weren't trying to impose their distorted ideology on their neighbours by trying to force a name change, there would be no problem at all.

[ennea]

Par for the course with Greeks unfortunately.
Geographic reference vs cultural reference vs political reference etc.
Voltron, why was this name chosen?
Can you please definitively let us know how/why the choice was made?

The new Demos (municipalities) under Kallikratis Project are wide ones, with populations more than 10,000 people. Since, each one of them usually includes 2 or 3 towns, big and small villages, compromises are often needed to find an acceptable name. So, new names that describe this new "area" are found using older historical names of ancient cities/areas, e.g. Mygdonia or Anthemous, or even of historical figures, e.g. Aristotelis, George Karaiskakis, Emmanouil Papas.
You can find all the names here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_Greece

In this case this area includes the towns of Polykastro, Axioupoli and Goumenissa and is hosting the ruins of ancient Paeonian cities Amydon, Chaetae, Amphaxitis and the Brygian city of Baerus.

[ennea]

For anyone interested, this is an extended Greek text on the Greekness of Paeonians, including Greek inscriptions of post-Alexander period concerning King Dropion (son of Leon), who reigned around 280 BC.

http://hellenikathemata.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post_530.html

These inscriptions were found in Delphi (where Dropion had gifted a statue), Kentrikon (close to Kilkis, the one in photo) and Tikves (in Republic of Macedonia).

[Soldier of Macedon]

What do you mean the 'Greekness of Paeonians'?

[Epirot]

For anyone interested, this is an extended Greek text on the Greekness of Paeonians, including Greek inscriptions of post-Alexander period concerning King Dropion (son of Leon), who reigned around 280 BC.

http://hellenikathemata.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post_530.html

These inscriptions were found in Delphi (where Dropion had gifted a statue), Kentrikon (close to Kilkis, the one in photo) and Tikves (in Republic of Macedonia).

It says nothing about Greek being of them. If you persist with such logic, then you will make also Daorsians a Hellenic tribe in the midst of Illyrians:

Nine of the recovered coins had a Greek inscription with an image of a boat.[5] Money was of immense importance to the Daorsi, allowing the tribe to remain independent while securing their business, cultural and trade links with other groups.[5][7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorson

Most commonly, Paeonians are related with Thracians, Illyrians and particularly with the Phrygians. One thing is certain: Paeonians were one of the most ancient Balkans tribe.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What do you mean the 'Greekness of Paeonians'?

Ennea, can you please respond to the above question? You weren't suggesting 'Greekness' merely on the account that Paeonians produced an item with a Greek inscription on it, were you?

[ennea]

The link provides the familiar arguments:
-Greek inscriptions (a total of three)
-Greek names (about 10 king names)
-Participation in the Olympic Games
-Cult of the same Gods (Dionysus Paeonicus)

Overall not much is known about Paeonians. Probably the sum of information is less than 2 or 3 pages. References are given on mostly 2 periods:
-the mythical past (Paeon from Elis of Peloponnese, Pyraechmes fought on the Trojans side in Iliad, Thersilochos, Mydonas, Thrasios, Astypylos, Aenios, Mnesos, Ophelestes, Apisaon, Ippasides)
-4th-early 3rd century BC (Agis, Lykkeios, Patraos, Aydoleon, Ariston, Dropion)

Epirot,
It's PAeonia/Paionia, not Peonia. Peonia would in Greek mean Land of Penis.

[Volk]

Didn't the Paeonians fight fight agaisnt the Hellenes during the Trojan wars?? That's right they did...

Modern greek interpretation of history is actually funny to someone with some knowledge...

A greek guy asked me if I had seen the movie Thor about a greek god...

[Epirot]

The link provides the familiar arguments:
-Greek inscriptions (a total of three)
-Greek names (about 10 king names)
-Participation in the Olympic Games
-Cult of the same Gods (Dionysus Paeonicus)
.

In fact, the presence of Greek names among Paeonians does not indicate their Hellenic being, because most of Paeonian names aren't Greek but Pre-Greek.

Inscriptions in Greek are well-attested in the regions of Paeonia. That's true. But we have to make an anology with the Illyrian tribe of Daorsi, who are esteemed to have Greek names, Greek inscriptions, same cults and gods as Greeks, etc. But no one has claim ever that Daorsi were Hellenes. They were Hellenized partially but definetely their Illyrian substance remained.

I shall present a concise review written by a Bosnian archeologist:

Peonians

Another illyrian community that in its political development reached a higher degree of political organization, were the Peonians. They inhabited the region of today's southern (In addition: Rep.)Macedonia (upper 'Vardar', Stobi and 'Crna Rijeka'), but its borders were changing through a longer period of time. On the east towards the Thracians the border went with the river 'Mesta' from its mouth to its source 'Arda', and from there towards 'Krdjolsko' lake and further towards north. Accoring to sources from some writers (Strabon, VI, 331, 11; 'Plinije'(=Plinius?), IV, 35; 'Livije'(=Livius?), XL, 33, 14), it can be concluded that in its earlier era that their area covered much wider area, including here the parts of northern Greece, on the expense of some of the local communities there. They resided in also Halkidiki.

That the Peonians were belonging to a community of older and more important Balkan peoples that were politically and culturally were much more advanced from other Balkan communities , it can be witnessed by the fact that they are mentioned by Homer as participants of the Trojan war, were they were fighting on the side of Trojans ( ILL. XVII , 350). During Philip II , Peonians recognized Macedonian rule ('Diod.' XVI , 4). After his death they incited rebellion and Alexander had to stop it.

Peonians being direct neighbour of the Greeks maintained close trade religions and as a result fell early under their cultural influence. Thanks to that they were among the first Illyrian communities to have stepped towards civilisational events. Close relations with Greece is confirmed by data that states that certain Peonian rulers were granted honored citizenship rights ('proksenija'='proxenia'?) by some Greek states. That was given in order to thank them for certain services (assistance in wheat, monetarily, military aid and similar). Such relations were especially strong with Athens, which in its own foreign politics and relations with Macedonia was frequently relying on connections with Illyrian and Thracian kings.

Original sources tell us of names of three peonian kings. At the year of 357. B.C. the throne was occupied by 'Agis'. His heir was 'Likpej' (='Likipeas'?) , and at the year of 306. B.C. on the throne was king 'Audoleont' (='Autoleantos'). His son was 'Ariston' , while 'Dropion' was contemporary of Macedonian king 'Demetrije'(='Demetrius'?) II. 4

High economical and cultural development of Peonia is showed through minting of monetary coins. It is known that the Peonian rulers were minting coins as far back as during the era of Greek - Persian wars. This is a witness that the economy of Peonia was based on trade-monetary relations, with all the accompanying institutions. Minting of monetary coins occurred in continuity across long period of time. At the year of 306. B.C. king ' Audoleont' (= 'Autoleontos' ?) minted coins that stated the title 'basileus' (='vasileus'?) , in a likewise manner that Hellenistic monarchs did. The title of 'Basileus' points that the Peonia represented state organization, for if we were talking about tribal organization with tribal leader as a ruler such title ('Basileus') would not be present.

That there was a high level of political organization in Peonia also points advanced urbanisation of the country. Peonian towns were mentioned also by Herodotus ('Doberos' and 'Bymazos' ), and from younger era there were 'Stuberra', 'Astraion', 'Argos', 'Bryanion', 'Bylazora', 'Stobi', 'Idomene' and others. Since for the development of urbanisation precondition is to have strong economic base, in this case there were all the required conjectures. The country had at its disposal large surplus of products, primarily in wheat and metals, which in the trade with Greeks represented strategic goods. Bringing (or coming) of means had increased the wealth of the country, which, and had conditioned peonian society into early class differentiation. This during the course of development has resulted in establishing strong political organization, that in the finishing stage has growned to state organization. 5

Heirs of king 'Audoleont' ruled over Peonia up until middle of II century B.C. From the political standpoint, from those heirs important one was 'Dropion' , contemporary of Macedonian king 'Demetrije' II and 'Dozon' (='Doson'?). During his rule Peonia in the sources is called 'koinon ton Paionon' (state-political community of Peonians). 6 Greeks with the legal expression 'koinon' had marked statehood , characteristic for their own (Greek) communities. Peonian 'koinon' varied from Greek one to a degree that it included villagers, while with Greeks it was based on 'simpoliteja' (='simpoliteria'?) , among whom societal base was a polis, and among Poenians it was a village.

Enver Imamovic
On elements of political organization of illyrian communities
Prilozi', 30, Sarajevo, 2001., pages. 25-41

Epirot,
It's PAeonia/Paionia, not Peonia. Peonia would in Greek mean Land of Penis

My mistaken then because I was in a hurry as I was writing.
As far as I know, "AE" has the same phonetical value with "E" or in some other cases with "I". In modern historical literature, both terms are used: Paionia/Paionians and Paeonia/Paeonians.

P.S: I demand from moderators to correct the title of thread!