Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

[Voltron]

What's the precarious position?

Well, people like Greeks / Macedonians both have connotations to antiquity. So if we are less than 3 percent, where does that put you ?
Dont worry, this thread is about us. I just wanted to point that out.

[TrueMacedonian]

Believe me things like this don't keep me up at night.

[Voltron]

Believe me things like this don't keep me up at night.

Same here, at least we agree on that.

[George S.]

Voltron what it means is that there is a highly probable thing you are not greek you are just pretending to be one.We have a wannabe greek.No wonder the greeks don't even know who they are where they came from & not even a greek to boot.Call it an impostor voltron
masquearading as a greek.Even zorba the (greek) was not greek but macedonian.Your greek flag is not yours.(stolen)your greek macedonia is not yours (stolen) so you got nothing left to go or to live for.

[Droog]

@George.S: Well, he is Greek but not in a "I-am-the-descendant-of-Socrates" way and that's the main problem because in order to "embrace" the so-called "ancient Greek civilization" Greece had to reject a very large part of its culture.

[makedonin]

I can tell you for a fact that in America this is exactly what happens.

Well America is the best example for that what I am talking about. The so called American culture is a mix of everything that stepped in there. Everyone have brought their own mix to it and adopted foreign traits as well. They now call it American, but if you really try to find out what it originally was, you can easily trace the cultural trait to it's originators.

No one in America claims any cultural uninterrupted continuity for fifty centuries or more.

They dont know when their names days are and are probably oblivous to the fact that there is a dispute going on between our countries.

Well I was born in Macedonia and spent thirty years of my life in there and I always had to be reminded when my name day is. That must make me less of a Macedonian, but I wonder to what did I assimilated, according to you!?

I tell you, that is a religious celebration and if you are not religiously inclined, you ain't gonna bother with it, no big deal.

As for the dispute, well it is again political crap, and thanks for mentioning it, now you have given your reason away for being here, that being, that if you don't join the main stream of the Greek lunatics, you must be a traitor and non Greek... What a load of BS is that, your brothers should be able to tell you.

So this type of assimilation that I mentioned is very much real.

You are a funny fellow. You are going to go miles to prove that those Pontians, Karamanlis etc. remained non assimilated over centuries and were recognizably Greek, and than go the opposite direction to prove that all those who set foot and remained on Greek soil, say Slavs, Arvanites, Vlachs etc. were assimilated beyond recognition and are now pure Greeks with out any cultural mixture of their previous cultural heritage.

What your mentioning is more of an identity crisis.

The Zenith of identity crisis is called assimilation beyond recognition, a psychological suicide, exactly your definition.
In reality there is no such thing. You just have to look into Greece... Those people were subjected to severe pressure of assimilation, and yet they retained much of their previous culture heritage. Now we see Macedonians, Vlachs, Turks etc popping out there where they shouldn't have supposed to be, and the whole fight of the Greek government is not to lose the grip, because once this is the case, those people will readily return to their previous cultural heritage.

That is the whole fight and the nightmare of the Greek government and nationalists of today. That is actually the real reason why you are here and we are having this debate.

[George S.]

Droog they come on this forum pretending to be pure as the white driven snow when in fact they are impostors who won't admit to anything.You know that most of the so called greek population is albanian.THe primeministers were albanian.In the army & navy albanian is spoken.On ewould deduce that sometghing is not right.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Well America is the best example for that what I am talking about. The so called American culture is a mix of everything that stepped in there. Everyone have brought their own mix to it and adopted foreign traits as well. They now call it American, but if you really try to find out what it originally was, you can easily trace the cultural trait to it's originators.

Correct. Although to try and compare Byzanine/Ottoman empire to be the same as USA is a little overstretching. Similar yes, but not the same.

Well I was born in Macedonia and spent thirty years of my life in there and I always had to be reminded when my name day is. That must make me less of a Macedonian, but I wonder to what did I assimilated, according to you!?

I must admit, it was a bad example. Ok, they dont know any Greek, just a few words or phrases. They dont think like Greeks either. We grew up in an American house, we spoke English as our native tongue. By 3rd generation, It would be a miracle if they kept those traditions of where they came from intact.

I tell you, that is a religious celebration and if you are not religiously inclined, you ain't gonna bother with it, no big deal.

True

You are a funny fellow. You are going to go miles to prove that those Pontians, Karamanlis etc. remained non assimilated over centuries and were recognizably Greek, and than go the opposite direction to prove that all those who set foot and remained on Greek soil, say Slavs, Arvanites, Vlachs etc. were assimilated beyond recognition and are now pure Greeks with out any cultural mixture of their previous cultural heritage.

Your a nice guy too. Listen, this is a topic that people with professions in that field deal with. I dont think it would be easy for me and you to come to a general conclusion and say either one of us is right. There are ppl that get paid for this. Anyway, Regarding Karmanlides and Cappodocieans, there are two groups not to be confused with. They are unique, thus they do not fall into the completely assimlated Turk.
However, you can use the example of Greeks that today are now Turks. They have lost every ethnical sense of term Greek and self identify as Turks. I would say the whole coast of Asia Minor, Pontus and Cappodciea as you pointed out were Greeks in the past. I dont claim them. Below are wiki links, take it for what its worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greek_language#Characteristics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides

The Zenith of identity crisis is called assimilation beyond recognition, a psychological suicide, exactly your definition.
In reality there is no such thing. You just have to look into Greece... Those people were subjected to severe pressure of assimilation, and yet they retained much of their previous culture heritage. Now we see Macedonians, Vlachs, Turks etc popping out there where they shouldn't have supposed to be, and the whole fight of the Greek government is not to lose the grip, because once this is the case, those people will readily return to their previous cultural heritage.

I dont buy that Makedonin. Again, this type of assimilation is real. If you dont want to use the American example. Look to your friends the Turks that were mostly Greek, Armenian and Slavs.

That is the whole fight and the nightmare of the Greek government and nationalists of today. That is actually the real reason why you are here and we are having this debate.

I am hardly a nationalist, although I used to be. Getting older now.

[makedonin]

this is a topic that people with professions in that field deal with. I dont think it would be easy for me and you to come to a general conclusion and say either one of us is right.

Agreed, no way to reach a general conclusion. The talk until now was like the same old debate about the glass being half full or half empty.

Guess reality is that both are true, and only the thought as abstraction creates the obvious paradox and contradiction which in reality does not exists.

I am hardly a nationalist, although I used to be. Getting older now.

Old trees can not be bend that easily.

You know the proverb, don't you?

[Voltron]

Old trees can not be bend that easily.

You know the proverb, don't you?

I dont recall a proverb like that. But sounds good.

[Onur]

I dont think it would be easy for me and you to come to a general conclusion and say either one of us is right. There are ppl that get paid for this. Anyway, Regarding Karmanlides and Cappodocieans, there are two groups not to be confused with. They are unique, thus they do not fall into the completely assimlated Turk.
However, you can use the example of Greeks that today are now Turks. They have lost every ethnical sense of term Greek and self identify as Turks. I would say the whole coast of Asia Minor, Pontus and Cappodciea as you pointed out were Greeks in the past. I dont claim them. Below are wiki links, take it for what its worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greek_language#Characteristics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides

Your wiki links doesn't mean shit dude but even the information in section of "Cappadocian Greek language" proves that there is no Greek dialect called Cappadocian ever existed. It says that there is no document exist which shows cappadocian Greek. Actually it exists, a lot, but neo-Hellenes ignores that cuz it`s basically same Turkish as i speak. They tend to ignore those cuz they cant detect any trace of Greek language in them. Look at the examples in wiki page;

The Cappadocian sound system includes the Turkish vowels ı, ö, ü, and the Turkish consonants b, d, g, š, ž, tš, dž (although some of these are also found in Greek words as a result of palatalization). Turkish vowel harmony is found in forms such as düšündǘzu "I think", aor. 3sg düšǘntsü < düšǘntsi (Malakopi), from Turkish düşünmek, patišáxıs < patišáxis "king" (Delmeso), from Turkish padişah. Cappadocian noun morphology is characterized by the emergence of a generalized agglutinative declension and the progressive loss of grammatical gender distinctions, e.g. to néka "the (neuter) woman (feminine)", genitive néka-ju, plural nékes, genitive nékez-ju (Ulağaç). Another Turkish feature is the morphological marking of definiteness in the accusative case, e.g. líkos "wolf (nominative / unmarked indefinite accusative)" vs. líko "wolf (marked definite accusative)". Agglutinative forms are also found in the verb system such as the pluperfect írta ton "I had come" (lit. "I came I was") (Delmeso) on the model of Turkish geldi idi (geldiydi). Although Cappadocian word order is essentially governed by discourse considerations such as topic and focus, there is a tendency towards the Turkish Subject Object Verb word order with its typological correlates (suffixation and pre-nominal grammatical modifiers).

Special Turkish vowels, consonants, vowel harmony, full agglutination, Turkish Subject Object Verb word order and sample verbs like düšündǘzu / geldiydi.

If this is Greek than what is my and other 80 million people`s language in Turkey? If this is Greek dialect than we Turks here might be speaking Greek language???


For the Karamanlides, which numbered around ~400.000 of one million Anatolian immigrants in Greece at 1923, they were simply Turkish christians, the Turks from early Seljuk era, baptized by Byzantines. I know that when you were a kid, you learned that Turks are only muslims in your Greek school but i am afraid that was a lie like many things they teach you. Karamanli`s origins are fully documented and attested by Byzantines. They were calling them as Tourkopoloui and using them as their soldiers after they baptized them. Then they were living in despotate of Karamanouglu in central Anatolia at 13th century and then Ottoman Empire annexed it laters. They always spoke Turkish as first attested by Byzantines in 10-11th century. After that, they start to intermarry with local koine Greek speaking people and probably by 15-16th century, they fully absorbed last remaining koine speaking people in central Anatolia cuz their population was higher than Greeks and that how their Turkish dialect includes some Byzantine Greek words but this doesn't make their language Greek at all.

Also i watched several rites of them on youtube. Not surprisingly, their christian rites includes some shamanistic habits from their previous Turkish background like dancing around fire at nighttime, playing some games by wearing various animal skins and personifying them. Thats exactly what our Alevi people does(Turkish invented sect of islam, mixed with shamanistic beliefs). And most surprisingly, Karamanlis in Greece still have shamanistic tradition of "Tree of life". I saw Karamanlides of Greece still performing this habit and attaching small cloth pieces on a great tree after praying and wishing by the tree.

Unfortunately you hellenized them all and raised them as Turkish haters to make sure they will remain as neo-hellenes in the future. And yes, your former PM was half Turk, believe it or not.

Too much hard truth for you today? Sorry but then go cut your wrists

[julie]

Onur , to my knowledge, Cappodocian is Turkish, Greeks are misguided and steal heritage , culture and ethnicity for their denial of their arvanite and albanian roots, it shows their insecurity when they lay claim to Cappodocia, in the heart of Turkey

[George S.]

I would have to agree with that 100% Julie.I would like to add that greeks hardly admit to anything even though there is ample evidence that the greeks stole macedonia & committed genocide on the macedonian people.They don't seem to have a heart or conscience to realise what they did.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Special Turkish vowels, consonants, vowel harmony, full agglutination, Turkish Subject Object Verb word order and sample verbs like düšündǘzu / geldiydi.

This is only normal for being isolated for close to a millenia encircled by Turks. Turkish being Lingua-Franca back then, espescially in that era.

And most surprisingly, Karamanlis in Greece still have shamanistic tradition of "Tree of life". I saw Karamanlides of Greece still performing this habit and attaching small cloth pieces on a great tree after praying and wishing by the tree.

I guess that would make them more Turk than you.

Unfortunately you hellenized them all and raised them as Turkish haters to make sure they will remain as neo-hellenes in the future.

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-241179-turkeys-circassians-we-also-suffered-from-assimilation-policies.html

[Onur]

This is only normal for being isolated for close to a millenia encircled by Turks. Turkish being Lingua-Franca back then, espescially in that era.

While i still retain my opinion that these people never spoke any other language than Turkish `till 1924, because even Byzantine era documents says so, but i wanna ask one question to you;

Lets consider that they were grandchildren of Homeros, just like "you"!, then tell me isn't this absurd that while you consider the formerly Albanian speaking people as Greek today just because they are surrounded by Greek speaking people in Athens for 100-150 years, BUT how come you still consider Cappadocians and Karamanlis people as Greeks even tough they surrounded by Turks for millenia and obviously they also intermarried with them??? So, you consider Albanians and Vlachs as Greek just because they live and speak Greek for a century but you also consider these central Anatolian people as Greek too while it`s a fact that they lived with Turks and spoke Turkish only for nearly a millenia. Arent you contradicting with yourself here?

I guess that would make them more Turk than you.

Ideologically, no, but tradition wise, maybe yes since i grew up with western culture in a big modern city, so maybe, probably i don't exhibit any old Turkish habit unlike Karamanlides in Greece. I wear tuxedos or pair of adidas with levis pants and use ipod for listening western rock music. I`ve just gone to dance academy once to learn how to dance zeybek, just to be able to do at least one similar thing as my ancestors did but your Karamanli people looks more Turkish than me for these terms

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2411...-policies.html

Circassians are living in Turkey since 1860s cuz Russians expelled them here after they invaded Crimea and surrounding places, just because they were muslims. They are living here for a long time and naturally they are getting assimilated in to the Turkish culture and some of them requested from Turkish government to help them learn their caucasus languages. This shows the level of tolerance, acceptance and democracy here because this is not even Turkish government`s duty to help people learn any other language than Turkish since everyone is free to learn and speak any language they want and open language courses in Turkey.

Tell me what would happen in Greece if Aegean Macedonians would walk in the streets and ask from Greek government to teach them Macedonian language? You Greeks don't even name it but call it as Skopiani, let alone helping them to learn it. Or what if Albanians or Vlachs does the same? What would your Golden Down clowns do? Open fire to them in the streets?


These people have been dumped here just like my grandparents who has been expelled by Bulgarians from Pirin in 1912. Ottoman and Turkey`s governments accepted them all since they had no where to go and we gladly accept this fact today. So, Turkey never claimed that we all are pure blood children of central Asian Turks unlike your state. Thats what Greece claims, not Turkey. Turkey is the heir of Ottoman empire and it wasn't a nation state like today.


Ohh btw, thanks for making me remember one more Turkish christian group in Greece. Russians not only expelled all muslims when they invaded Crimea but they also expelled christian Tatar Turks named Urums. Muslim Tatars called them as Urums because of their adherence to Istanbul patriarchy. They were speaking Tatar Turkic dialect and they were totally ignorant to Greek language. Russians expelled them in Anatolia and Macedonia regardless of their christian religion because they were Turks anyway. Most of these people ended up in Greece and Cyprus laters. I have no idea what happened to them, probably they cheer up for their homo ancient Greek ancestors by now just like other neo-hellene Albanians, Vlachs does.

Search on google for Urums of Crimea, Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan and then you can learn something about them since i wouldn't like to bother teaching something to you. I am telling you dude, you better don't click on this thread anymore or you will really end up cutting your wrists in anger and frustration!!!