Political and social divisions among Albanians

[indigen]

Originally Posted by indigen View Post
This IS another typical DELUDED MACEDONIAN assumption! The way I see it, Macedonians generally delude themselves into thinking that they are winning when in fact they are losing! When it comes to their national interests and agendas, IT SHOULD BE CRYSTAL CLEAR that the Shiptars/Ghegs ("Albanians") are ALWAYS UNITED and work towards their attainment.

Quick question Indigen, Would you rather the Albanians to be united or to be divided?

Mastika, the answer is right there in highlighted part of the quote. There is NO DISUNITY on national questions in crunch time amongst the Ghegs.

Whatever you claim, creating new organisations and new branches of ANY group will ultimately dilute and complicate matters, leading to a lesser sense of unity. Having 5 Albanian parties makes them less united than if they were to have only 1 party.

They are smart politically and will not allow that to happen but will use a party such as this to push the more radical agenda items in the early stages until they become the mainstream agenda of the Ghegs and then you will see a solid front form around pushing for those demands to be met.

[Bill77]

If you are talking about Strasho and MAAK-VEP (2001) and his now TMRO-VEP, he has not delivered and I doubt that it is a real party (or organisation) of any worth because it simply has not delivered any results in past activities and most likely is satellite "party" for political needs of DPMNE, at least that is a common assumption. I was also one of those impressed by his rhetoric in 2001 (as many others were here in Sydney and other places in Australia) as he had a few radio interviews broadcast where he seemed to be the "leader" (the man) we were looking for but delivered nothing of substance.

If he had support from day one, mabe he would have delivered by now. Just like i said, they/he is not taken serious and would probably be branded all sorts of negetive things such as a psycho, Nationalist, dangerous man etc. A chief needs indians, and if he didn't have many, what can he do? Again, i believe nie narodo sne krivi.

[Mastika]

Mastika, the answer is right there in highlighted part of the quote. There is NO DISUNITY on national questions in crunch time amongst the Ghegs.

What about the callls of Albanians from Albania who openly attack and ridicule irredentists? They must be Tosks not Ghegs. ?! You are doing a disservice to yourself simply by believing that the "Ghegs" have no disunity. Every group has both some form of unity and disunity. We need to capitalise on their disunity. If the Albanian parties can be played against each other then it will ultimately serve in Macedonia's best insterests.

[indigen]

What about the callls of Albanians from Albania who openly attack and ridicule irredentists?
They must be Tosks not Ghegs. ?!

Quite possibly so because Tosks apparently are not that keen on being overrun by Ghegs. But Berisha's party is a Gheg-based party that is not shy to lend support to such irredentist claims, though sometimes masking them in camouflage rhetoric. When in 1997 Albania was in a state of anarchy, it was Berisha's mob and Ghegs that started the revolt where all army supply stores were sacked and millions of guns (AK47, and etc.) started flowing over the borders to Kosovo and Western parts of Macedonia. Was this a deliberate policy to get supplies into Kosovo and Macedonia or just a symptom of the political anarchy in Albania?

You are doing a disservice to yourself simply by believing that the "Ghegs" have no disunity.

Our "Albanians" are predominantly Ghegs and they are essentially learning a foreign language in utilising the official "Albanian" (Shqip) language of Albania (which is based on Tosk) in the education and state system in Mk. When elections in Mk were based on individual electorates and more than one Gheg party was running in the race, they always gave their preferences to whoever was left in the 2nd round from their side (regardless of party ideology) running against a Macedonian candidate. I also remember one election (maybe 1998) where DPA did not run any candidates in certain electoral seats (or groups) in order not to dilute the Gheg votes and lose a seat for their ethnicity. That was quite commendable ideological discipline displayed by Dzhaferi and his party.

Every group has both some form of unity and disunity. We need to capitalise on their disunity. If the Albanian parties can be played against each other then it will ultimately serve in Macedonia's best insterests.

I wouldn't disagree if it was the case and our "Macedonian" side was capable of engineering such disunity but I don't think that is what is happening. Countries such Israel, USA and UK have been, and will continue to be, engineering such scenarios in various parts of the world with great success but Macedonia is not them. It is more likely that Macedonia and Macedonians are the victims of such schemes emanating from external forces, especially from our near neighbours and other "IC" interests.

Cheers,
I.

[indigen]

If he had support from day one, mabe he would have delivered by now. Just like i said, they/he is not taken serious and would probably be branded all sorts of negetive things such as a psycho, Nationalist, dangerous man etc. A chief needs indians, and if he didn't have many, what can he do?

Yes, mate, people in Macedonia could have turned up at the rally called by MAAK to stop the Ramkoven being implemented in 2001 but only 300 or so showed up. But Strasho also claimed that his party had (tens of) thousands of members but where were they on that day? Or maybe he was just making things up for a long time and people did not take him seriously. It is also true that they do say negative things about him, even in his hometown of Prilep.

Again, i believe nie narodo sne krivi.

There are lot of forces acting against unity and organisation but we, the Macedonian Diaspora of Australia, also need to get our act together here. Jole Karevski (aka Petar) and his disciples are a serious obstacle to that end and we must deal with him and his dirty deeds first and foremost if we are ever to move forward effectively and to our full potential. Also, the extended arm of political forces operating in MK is either trying to keep us in the status quo (divided and unorganised) or attempting to win (sign) us over to their side as appendages.

So pochit,
I.

[Mastika]

Quite possibly so because Tosks apparently are not that keen on being overrun by Ghegs. But Berisha's party is a Gheg-based party that is not shy to lend support to such irredentist claims, though sometimes masking them in camouflage rhetoric. When in 1997 Albania was in a state of anarchy, it was Berisha's mob and Ghegs that started the revolt where all army supply stores were sacked and millions of guns (AK47, and etc.) started flowing over the borders to Kosovo and Western parts of Macedonia. Was this a deliberate policy to get supplies into Kosovo and Macedonia or just a symptom of the political anarchy in Albania?

Being albanian comes before being a "Gheg" or a "tosk" (which is essentially a linguistic designation) (just like being Macedonian comes before being a bitolchanec, ohrigjanec, etc.). I think that you are over-exaggerating this Gheg/Tosk divide. The Albanians in Struga/Ohrid are Tosks, not Ghegs, yet they seem to have no problem working with their 'Gheg cousins' in Tetovo and Skopje. Again it seems that you are over exaggerating this Gheg-Tosk divide, in my honest opinion.

Our "Albanians" are predominantly Ghegs and they are essentially learning a foreign language in utilising the official "Albanian" (Shqip) language of Albania (which is based on Tosk) in the education and state system in Mk.

How is it a foreign language?! It is simply a different dialect group. We also have different dialect groups in Macedonian, we don't go claiming that these dialectial differences amount to different languages. They are simply different dialects of the same language.

When elections in Mk were based on individual electorates and more than one Gheg party was running in the race, they always gave their preferences to whoever was left in the 2nd round from their side (regardless of party ideology) running against a Macedonian candidate. I also remember one election (maybe 1998) where DPA did not run any candidates in certain electoral seats (or groups) in order not to dilute the Gheg votes and lose a seat for their ethnicity. That was quite commendable ideological discipline displayed by Dzhaferi and his party.

Fair enough if it was an Albanian vs. Macedonian contest, but I find it strange to believe that DPA has been conjuring up Gheg vs. Tosk contests in Macedonia.

Had you said 'Albanian/s' from the begginging rather than 'Gheg/s', we would not even be having this discussion ATM. Although you may not like calling them Albanians, it is what they are called and for the sake of internet based discussions makes the conversation flow easier and makes what you are writing more understandable. Call them shiptari if you have too, at least that also is much more understandable than this Gheg/Tosk business you are going on about.

[indigen]

Being albanian comes before being a "Gheg" or a "tosk" (which is essentially a linguistic designation) (just like being Macedonian comes before being a bitolchanec, ohrigjanec, etc.). I think that you are over-exaggerating this Gheg/Tosk divide.

So would claim "Albanian" nationalists but there is more to it than that. Bulgarians and Bugaromani claim similar things about the Macedonian language and as do Russians (nationalists) about Ukrainian and Belorussian languages.

The Albanians in Struga/Ohrid are Tosks, not Ghegs, yet they seem to have no problem working with their 'Gheg cousins' in Tetovo and Skopje.

Why should they, aren't the Gheg idiots in Tetovo and Skopje promoting Tosk language and nationalism?

Again it seems that you are over exaggerating this Gheg-Tosk divide, in my honest opinion.

I don't think that is so since I had looked into it a bit before and have spoken to someone that married a Makedonka from Pustec area and who travelled widely in Albania and he talked of even greater animosity than what I have said so far. There was also much talk of this divide back in 1997 when Albania politically collapsed into violence and chaos.

How is it a foreign language?! It is simply a different dialect group.

In the same way of how Bulgarian and Serbian are foreign language to Macedonians! The "Albanian" nationalists and their IC backers will downplay it but if you do some basic research you might come to realise that the differences are far greater.

I find it strange to believe that DPA has been conjuring up Gheg vs. Tosk contests in Macedonia.

Where did I say that? Ghegs run the parties and are promoting Tosk language and nationalism. Why would Tosks complain? And are you sure there are no Ghegs moving in there as well?

Had you said 'Albanian/s' from the beginning rather than 'Gheg/s', we would not even be having this discussion ATM.

Now I see what ails you! :-))

Do some research and maybe you might change your view!

The following simple and quick Google search might lead you to some further info:

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=ghegs+and+tosk+differences

There are two principal dialects of limited mutual intelligibility: Tosk, spoken
in southern and central Albania and among the Albanian minority of north-western
Greece; and Gheg (or Geg), spoken in northern Albania and by the Albanians of
Serbia and Montenegro (including the province of Kosovo) as well as those of the
Republic of Macedonia.

Georges Drettas explains that the main types of differences one would look for
in a dialectal study of Albanian by saying: "The related structural differences
that exist are: phonological, morphosyntactical and lexigraphical. They are not
negligible but are variations of the root plus a phonographic change." Some of
these differences are phonological, while others are either morphological, or
lexigraphical. I will show with the following data sufficient evidence to show
that a significant proportion of these phonological differences are caused by
the influences of Greek and Macedonian.

These examples show that there is a general pattern for the /į/ to become /ė/.
If we compare the Tosk forms to the Greek forms, we see a significant
correlation between the occurrence of an /ė/ in Greek to a corresponding /ė/ in
Tosk. Meanwhile, in Geg /į/ is correlating /į/ or /a/ is found in Macedonian
except in the fourth and fifth examples when there is not a Macedonian word with
the same Indo-European root. Although every example shows the vowel shifts in
Geg being word initial the vowel that influences Geg is not always in the word
initial position. Also in the case of Tosk along with its corresponding Greek
the case is better established with example being both word initial and syllable
final. found several other examples where the same pattern occurred that out of
length constraints of this paper I won't expound upon. With all of the words
that differ in an /ė/ in Tosk and replaced by an /a/ in Geg either a Greek word
(93% of the time) or a Macedonian word (76% of the time) came from the same
root. Therefore, the higher front Greek vowel helped raise and frontalize the
Tosk vowel whereas the lower back Macedonian vowel forced the Geg vowel back and
lower, and this was shown to be statistically significant in the formation of
Geg and Tosk.

This subsequent data show that there continued to do consistent changes in the
vowels. The Tosk examples show the highest correlation to the Greek when the
vowels are looked upon. The correlation between the Tosk and the Greek is 89%
when the roots are compared, looking at the vowels in corresponding roots under
the same Indo-European root. With these example the tendency for the Albanian to
be fronalized and lifted up in Tosk continues to be shown. In Geg the tendency
still follows to be lowered and brought back due to the Macedonian. Therefore, a
general rule can be made with respect to Geg and Tosk.

This causes an alliteration from Tosk to Geg which given the first example is
possible but with the second example very unlikely so the cause must be
assimilation with the Macedonian roots that are similar in meaning but not form.
By using the fact that Greek has done it with Tosk, one example of Macedonian
will suffice to show that it does occur as well in the analogous relationship or
Macedonian and Geg.

SONORANCY
Next, I will show the role that Greek has played on the Tosk dialect with
respect to the increasing of sonorancy therein. Then, I will show the effect of
Macedonian on the Geg dialect in causing an increase in sonorancy.
http://www.phrasebase.com/archive2/a...g-vs-tosk.html

Banished language

In opposition to Albanian nationalism, and against the wall of silence that keeps its weight on the press, and certainly against the discrimination that encircles Gheg. ‘What nobody knows is that we all speak Gheg in Kosovo, one of the two dialects that makes up the Albanian language,’ explains the passionate, cultivated man who in 2007 received the ‘press freedom award’ from Reporters Without Borders for his Gheg magazine - his pride and joy. ‘But all the newspapers are written in Tosk, the other dialect! Put simply, they do this just because it does better. During its entire communist period, Kosovars tried to imitate Albania, to be identified with something.’
Hear the difference

Gheg: Tung çka po bon, a je mire? (‘Hello, how are you’) http://static.cafebabel.com/mp3/gheg.mp3

Tosk: Hë më, ç’kemi ? Mire je ? (‘Hello, how are you’) http://static.cafebabel.com/mp3/tosk.mp3

When the magazine was launched in 2001, Kelmendi was put under pressure, subjected to intimidation and branded a ‘traitor’ to the Albanian cause. ‘Today, the Gheg language is banished,’ the forty-nine year old says. ‘This rejection is far from being harmless. There’s a desire to show a united Albanian people with a single identity but this isn’t the reality of things! That’s a nationalistic delirium, like believing in a Greater Albania or some Golden Age from the past.’

http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/24227/gheg-or-tosk-dialect-still-divides-kosovo.html

Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Gheg

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Gheg

[Mastika]

So would claim "Albanian" nationalists but there is more to it than that. Bulgarians and Bugaromani claim similar things about the Macedonian language and as do Russians (nationalists) about Ukrainian and Belorussian languages.

Yes, however here you have Albanians all claiming that Gheg and Tosk are simply dialects of one language. If the Albanians themselves claim that they are one nation which speaks ONE language, how can you possibly say that they speak two different languages?! How can a person who knows very little about Albanian, contradict the belief of millions of people who speak the language every day?!, not to mention linguists, etc. etc.

Why should they, aren't the Gheg idiots in Tetovo and Skopje promoting Tosk language and nationalism?

Neither of us knows much about Albanian culture, and we would have no idea whether people were speaking Gheg or Tosk. What I know is that I see Albanian idiots in Tetovo and Skopje promoting Albanian language and Albanian nationalism. You never hear calls for "long live Toskeria!".

I don't think that is so since I had looked into it a bit before and have spoken to someone that married a Makedonka from Pustec area and who travelled widely in Albania and he talked of even greater animosity than what I have said so far. There was also much talk of this divide back in 1997 when Albania politically collapsed into violence and chaos.

As I have said, neither of us knows enough about Albanian linguistic differences to make irrefutable comments, however if this divide was so prevalent then I am sure that it would have surfaced within the country at a public scale, and subsequently be reported on in neighbouring countries. My point is, if it was that important then we would have heard much about it by now.

In the same way of how Bulgarian and Serbian are foreign language to Macedonians! The "Albanian" nationalists and their IC backers will downplay it but if you do some basic research you might come to realise that the differences are far greater.

No, it is the same language, this is recognised by almost everyone (except you apparently, who cannot even speak Albanian).

Where did I say that? Ghegs run the parties and are promoting Tosk language and nationalism. Why would Tosks complain? And are you sure there are no Ghegs moving in there as well?

No, Albanians runs parties that are promoting Albanian language and Albanian nationalism. I am yet to see parties such as DPG (Democratic party of Ghegs), etc.

Now I see what ails you! :-))

Do some research and maybe you might change your view!

The following simple and quick Google search might lead you to some further info:

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=gh...sk+differences

This is a public forum, where public terminology and meanings are used.

[indigen]

Yes, however here you have Albanians all claiming that Gheg and Tosk are simply dialects of one language.

"Albanians" live in Albania - Shqiperia (Shiptarska, where Shiptari is derived from!) and in Macedonia (should) live Macedonians! Ghegs living in Macedonia and wanting, for political reasons, to be referred to as "Albanians" instead of Shiptari (Arnauti) or Ghegs for me will always be that - Ghegs/Balisti/Arnauti/Kachaci!

If the Albanians themselves claim that they are one nation which speaks ONE language, how can you possibly say that they speak two different languages?!

If they say black is white for their own political games and ends it does not mean it is so! I gave you sufficient info to back the claim that there are significant linguistic and cultural differences but you just ignored them.

How can a person who knows very little about Albanian, contradict the belief of millions of people who speak the language every day?!, not to mention linguists, etc. etc.

If a Macedonian travels all over Albania, has good connections to Macedonians in Pustec, Tirana, Korcha and Dures and tells me these things he derived from observations and discussions with people in Albania, who the fark are you to dismiss that claim? My conclusion is certainly not based on those observations alone but it is only an example to show you that there are people who have direct knowledge, including the fact the Macedonians in Albania do know the differences in the languages/dialects.

Neither of us knows much about Albanian culture, and we would have no idea whether people were speaking Gheg or Tosk.

Well, I know people who know more than you (or I) plus I gave you info from people who do know but you simply ignored it for the purpose of being contrary.

What I know is that I see Albanian idiots in Tetovo and Skopje promoting Albanian language and Albanian nationalism. You never hear calls for "long live Toskeria!".

That is where "Albanian" nationalism is right now but Ghegs are the vast majority and if you had followed the links I provided, you would see that there are moves afoot to advance the Gheg literary language (which has a longer history than "Albanian" Tosk!) by Ghegs themselves.

My point is, if it was that important then we would have heard much about it by now.

I heard about it in 1997 in the mainstream media but the events leading up to war and IC occupation of Kosovo has put a lid on it for now. Political interests have suppressed the natural development and progress of Gheg but I think it will bloom sooner or later.

No, it is the same language, this is recognised by almost everyone (except you apparently, who cannot even speak Albanian).

I gave you references by more qualified people but you IGNORED those and make stupid subjective claims such the above.

No, Albanians runs parties that are promoting Albanian language and Albanian nationalism. I am yet to see parties such as DPG (Democratic party of Ghegs), etc.

That is right, Ghegs are at present promoting Tosk ("Albanian") nationalism and I care little about that.

This is a public forum, where public terminology and meanings are used.

Haha...:-) This not Titoslavia where ednoumie rules the day but MTO where we try to seek the truth. It is also a Macedonian forum where we Macedonians do not have to submit to the whims and wishes of what terminology our political and national enemies want to use/utilise in order to gain some advantage over us.

Since YOU IGNORED the references below, I don't wish to waste further time with you by going around in circles over your petty objections to what terminology I use to describe the Shiptari/UCK/Ghegs in Macedonia.

-----------

Gheg or Tosk: dialect still divides Kosovo

The majority of Kosovars speak Gheg, but officially use Tosk for historical reasons. As Kosovo emerges in the form of an independent state, Migjen Kelmendi, former rock star and editor in chief of ‘Java’ magazine, discusses ‘nationalist deliriums’

interview

by jean-sébastien lefebvre Translation: John Smith @

18/03/08

No one defines themselves as being Kosovar in Kosovo. People identify themselves by saying: ‘I’m Albanian’ or ‘I’m Serbian’ or ‘I’m Askhali’. Words which can become disconcerting for western Europeans freshly landed in Pristina. What is Kosovo? Where is its identity?

When we meet Migjen Kelmendi in his office, in a small building in the centre of Pristina, he has his own unconventional ideas on the subject. He’s a real character: a rock star during the communist period with the band ‘The Traces’, he became a journalist during the eighties. He opposed Milosevic’s regime, and fled Kosovo at the time of the NATO bombings in 1999. When he returned home, he was asked to head RTK, Kosovo’s main public television station. Kelmendi lasted a year, leaving it to kick off his own independent magazine Java, today’s leading opposition newspaper.

Banished language

In opposition to Albanian nationalism, and against the wall of silence that keeps its weight on the press, and certainly against the discrimination that encircles Gheg. ‘What nobody knows is that we all speak Gheg in Kosovo, one of the two dialects that makes up the Albanian language,’ explains the passionate, cultivated man who in 2007 received the ‘press freedom award’ from Reporters Without Borders for his Gheg magazine - his pride and joy. ‘But all the newspapers are written in Tosk, the other dialect! Put simply, they do this just because it does better. During its entire communist period, Kosovars tried to imitate Albania, to be identified with something.’


Gheg: Tung çka po bon, a je mire? (‘Hello, how are you’) http://static.cafebabel.com/mp3/gheg.mp3

Tosk: Hë më, ç’kemi ? Mire je ? (‘Hello, how are you’) http://static.cafebabel.com/mp3/tosk.mp3

When the magazine was launched in 2001, Kelmendi was put under pressure, subjected to intimidation and branded a ‘traitor’ to the Albanian cause. ‘Today, the Gheg language is banished,’ the forty-nine year old says. ‘This rejection is far from being harmless. There’s a desire to show a united Albanian people with a single identity but this isn’t the reality of things! That’s a nationalistic delirium, like believing in a Greater Albania or some Golden Age from the past.’

----------------------

There are two principal dialects of limited mutual intelligibility: Tosk, spoken
in southern and central Albania and among the Albanian minority of north-western
Greece; and Gheg (or Geg), spoken in northern Albania and by the Albanians of
Serbia and Montenegro (including the province of Kosovo) as well as those of the
Republic of Macedonia.

Georges Drettas explains that the main types of differences one would look for
in a dialectal study of Albanian by saying: "The related structural differences
that exist are: phonological, morphosyntactical and lexigraphical. They are not
negligible but are variations of the root plus a phonographic change." Some of
these differences are phonological, while others are either morphological, or
lexigraphical. I will show with the following data sufficient evidence to show
that a significant proportion of these phonological differences are caused by
the influences of Greek and Macedonian.

These examples show that there is a general pattern for the /į/ to become /ė/.
If we compare the Tosk forms to the Greek forms, we see a significant
correlation between the occurrence of an /ė/ in Greek to a corresponding /ė/ in
Tosk. Meanwhile, in Geg /į/ is correlating /į/ or /a/ is found in Macedonian
except in the fourth and fifth examples when there is not a Macedonian word with
the same Indo-European root. Although every example shows the vowel shifts in
Geg being word initial the vowel that influences Geg is not always in the word
initial position. Also in the case of Tosk along with its corresponding Greek
the case is better established with example being both word initial and syllable
final. found several other examples where the same pattern occurred that out of
length constraints of this paper I won't expound upon. With all of the words
that differ in an /ė/ in Tosk and replaced by an /a/ in Geg either a Greek word
(93% of the time) or a Macedonian word (76% of the time) came from the same
root. Therefore, the higher front Greek vowel helped raise and frontalize the
Tosk vowel whereas the lower back Macedonian vowel forced the Geg vowel back and
lower, and this was shown to be statistically significant in the formation of
Geg and Tosk.

This subsequent data show that there continued to do consistent changes in the
vowels. The Tosk examples show the highest correlation to the Greek when the
vowels are looked upon. The correlation between the Tosk and the Greek is 89%
when the roots are compared, looking at the vowels in corresponding roots under
the same Indo-European root. With these example the tendency for the Albanian to
be fronalized and lifted up in Tosk continues to be shown. In Geg the tendency
still follows to be lowered and brought back due to the Macedonian. Therefore, a
general rule can be made with respect to Geg and Tosk.

This causes an alliteration from Tosk to Geg which given the first example is
possible but with the second example very unlikely so the cause must be
assimilation with the Macedonian roots that are similar in meaning but not form.
By using the fact that Greek has done it with Tosk, one example of Macedonian
will suffice to show that it does occur as well in the analogous relationship or
Macedonian and Geg.

SONORANCY
Next, I will show the role that Greek has played on the Tosk dialect with
respect to the increasing of sonorancy therein. Then, I will show the effect of
Macedonian on the Geg dialect in causing an increase in sonorancy.

http://www.phrasebase.com/archive2/albanian/gheg-vs-tosk.html

---------------

Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Gheg

Gheg is spoken today by an around 2.8 million people (quoted from Omniglot) in Kosovo, Northern Albania, parts of Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro and in Serbia
Arguments in favour

The Literary Standard Argument Yes, there is a page on Albanian Official Language, but what we should understand is the difference between an Official Standard, used by administration, schools, and national media and the Literary Standard. Gheg literary standard began in 1555 and continues today. There are, probably, 100 authors that publish in gheg today. Nobody in Albania opposes the fact that for the last 200 years albanians have written in two literary standards (Today's Official Language began to be written 200 years ago as Tosk Literary Standard). Since gheg people have written in their literary standard for the last 455 years, I think it is reasonable that they continue to develop their standard. Wikipedia is a good place for that.
The Language Preservation Argument

The Language Preservation Argument The official Language has wiped out a few gheg structures and features, which gheg people continue to use them today. Remember that those who say that gheg is confined to Kosovo, do not know that 70% of Albanian population speaks gheg today. Here are a few things that this page can help preserve

1) five nasal sounds, a, e, i, u, y, that the official language has eliminated 2) the second future tense. In english we say "I am going to go". In gheg we say "Un kam me shkue". The official language refuses to accept this structure, but 70% of albanians use it every day. And we know that 'I'm going to go' is different from 'I will go'. Well, so it is in Gheg. 3) the Infinitive. English language creates its subjunctive mood by using its infinitive, for example 'to be or not to be'. Gheg language uses its infinitive to form its subjunctive mood too, 'me qen a mos me qen'. But the official standard refuses to accept it. However, 70% albanians use it every day. 4) In addition to the subjunctive mood, the infinitive of Gheg is used also in conditional moods.


The Official vs. People Argument

I have always sought wikipedia because it provides with multiple views -- in addition to the standard, official ones. Those who say that there is an albanian language page are saying, 'There is only one Albanian Language -- the one accepted by the government'. But that excludes the language of 70% of Albanians

Finally, if we had a wikipedia before 1945, the debate would be reversed because at that time it was Gheg language that was the Standard and Tosk was the dialect -- today it is the opposite. So the question is then, would those who oppose having a gheg page today be opposing having a tosk page tomorrow -- reversals might happen again.


Two Recent Movies about Gheg Language

Some of the most prominient academics, linguists, writers, poets, and playwrights have spoken in two recent documentaries about the problem that the Official Standard have created by Eliminating Gheg Language in 1972. Gheg language is a hot issue amongst the regular people as well as among the elite thinkers in albania and in Kosovo. Here are the movies, Two Documentaries About Gheg Language in Kosovo


* &Y  Support 5 million people speaking Gheg... We shall definitely have a Gheg Wikipedia.--Dardan Prishtina 16:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
* Native speakers are willing to contribute to the project in the long term. The language code for Gheg exists and is classified as "active". The difference between Gheg and Albanian are substantial enough. Literature in Gheg do exist. --Jose77 22:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
* &Y  Support I support this requested. Gheg is the native language of over 2 million people, including most Kosovars. Literary Albanian is unfairly said to be a unified dialect, but in reality it is based almost entirely on Tosk. --Node ue 23:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
* &Y  Support In line with similar projects in regional languages often considered dialects. It has its own ISO code and the Albanian Wikipedia does not permit articles in Gheg. Should the Albanian Wikipedia start admitting articles in Gheg, I will withdraw my support. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 18:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
* &Y  Support There are quite some differences between gheg and tosk albanian , and gheg is the native language (dialect) for all people living in kosovo , northern albania,montenegro,serbia and macedonia--Cradel
* &Y  Support Per Node ue. Timpul 09:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
* &Y  Support I think we need to make a new alphabet with Gheg letters. After a bit of years the Gheg will be Kosovars official language. Kosovar2
* &Y  Strongly Support Letting people speak and write in gheg will boost also the tosk standard as it has been isolated and petrified, even the dictionary wasn't updated since Bresta
* &Y  Support I support this, too. I am Albanian from Montenegro and I don't understand the Albanians from Albania. Gheg is almost a different language and you write it almost completely different. When there is a Creole encyclopedia, then there must be a Gheg encyclopedia, too. - Malsia E Madhe 13:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
* &Y  Support and this be a great mark in the event of Kosovo's independence. Also, brethren Albans, please SUPPORT MONTENEGRIN BRETHREN. CRNOGORSKI PATRIOTA

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Gheg

[Big Bad Sven]

"Since YOU IGNORED the references below, I don't wish to waste further time with you by going around in circles over your petty objections to what terminology I use to describe the Shiptari/UCK/Ghegs in Macedonia.

You are wasting your time debating with mastlinka/Crvena Zvezda, usually debating with this fellow goes nowhere.......

On the gheg/tosk issue, one has to simply go on a albanian forum and see the in fighting between the two groups, or simply look at both of their national dress (the tosks have a dress similiar to "greeks" and vlach while ghegs are totally different) or do what you did indigen and compare the two dialects and see that there is more then a "slight" difference between a gheg and a tosk.

And in the end of the day, wether its the gheg bastards in kosovo or macedonia, or the tosk government of republic of albania, they all live and support for greater albania. Remember it was not too long ago when we heard of school books in albania showing maps of "albania proper" which contained almost all of macedonia, and the albanian government is tosk run.....

In the end of the day i think we macedonians should take a look at the albanians and admire how they are able to unite for their national causes. There are huge differences between ghegs and tosks as indigen has pointed out, and dont forget that they are three different religions. And if you want to get technical they have even more divisions in the muslims sect, with "normal muslims" and bektashi muslims.

Yet we macedonians have very little seperating us and we cant unite and are masters of stabing each other in the back, wether its christian macedonians treating torbeshi like shit because they are muslims, or macedonians in the republic belittling australian macedonians, or idiots calling people from Strumica "bulgarians" or aegean macedonians as "greeks"......
Even within our churches there is no unity and many divisions...

If only we where as united as the shiptars maybe we wouldnt be seeing new fanatical albanian parties popping up....

[julie]

BBS , nie samite se delime, ne da se soberime, nie se jadime kako kuchina, bez poshtovanie,
Macedonians must unite, irrespective of religion, and I totally agree with you

[Mastika]

Look Indigen, all i was saying is that the term 'Albanian' is a better term to use as it encompasses all of the Albanians living in Macedonia (both Tosks and Ghegs). To use the term 'Gheg' to also encompass Tosks is inaccurate, and misleading, which was why I first brought it up in the first place, as I found it strange why you were labelling non-Ghegs as Ghegs, rather than just using the word 'Albanian' which covers the lot of them (which for some reason you do not enjoy using).

This is the last i'll be posting on this issue, pravi shto sakash, ich nema da mi smeta pojke.

[The LION will ROAR]

Could a civil war start in Albania?

Google Translator

Could a civil war start in Albania?

http://kurir.mk/svet/region/16900-Mozna-li-e-graganska-vojna-vo-Albanija

We are one nation in the world, which, although divided into three faiths live peacefully and in a brotherly country, always proudly declare Albanians.

But is it really so?

Undisputed fact is that despite the fact that Albania or Ethnic Religious or not a homogenous country, the population accepted the civic model, ie in Albania Albanian yourself first, then another.

However, recent developments and events of 1997, clearly show the vulnerability of this country. Spring of that year due to the collapse of pyramid schemes riots erupted, first in the south of the country later spread throughout Albania. State institutions have disintegrated completely, and if not interverniraa UN under the leadership of Italy in 1997, Albanian state it seems now would not exist. The conflict has claimed about two thousand lives.

Riots in a few days in Tirana in which three persons perished recall the events of 1997, but also of how vulnerable the Albanian state.

The latest riots are just the culmination of one and polgodishnite tensions between the government of Prime Minister Sali Berisha and the opposition Socialist Party, led by the mayor of Tirana, Edi Rama, who claims Berisha rigged parliamentary elections in June 2009 to keep power.

*But whether the conflicts and divisions in the Albanian society is only political.

If the riots are considered superficial, it is really so, but if analizraat two main Albanian political parties then gets a different impression.

Socialist Party generally has the most support in the southern Albanian cities that are majority Toskite, while the majority in the Democratic Party Ghegs and northern parts of the country is a stronghold of Berisha's Democratic Party.

Between these two ethnicities are centuries-old differences

Ghegs almost completely embraced Islamization, which after many centuries vtisnala deep into their consciousness and though it retained many of its authentic customary law as the law of vendetta, known as the law of Lek Dukadzhini. Among them feel guilty pottisnatiot complex due to the change of faith. Constitute about two thirds of the total population in Albania and live in the northern parts of the country but the majority of Albanians in the region Ghegs

Unlike them Toskite, I live in Southern Albania and most of them are Christians.

The geographical boundary between the two cultures is Shkumbin River, and Tirana is a neutral ground for both groups.
In the past Ghegs were organized into clans and Toskite in the semi-feudal society. Before the Second World War Ghegs dominated the Albanian politics, but after the war many of Toskite coming to power, along with the new Communist government.

Communist dictator Enver Hoxha are trying to suppress these cultural differences. Declared Albania the first atheist state in the world and take anything but holy belonging to the Albanian nation

Genesis of this national ideology begins during the resurgence (Rilindija ") in the last century under the motto:" Religion in Albania is Albanstvoto and it is a single god, and the Albanian state "Cathedral eternal prayer to the deity. And the holiday is proglsen day Albanian flag. Actually the Albanian flag is the only thing that unites all Albanians. While Albanians claim that two-headed eagle characterizes itself as a country of Albania eagles, though the origin of the flag is completely different. Flag roots since the Byzantine Empire. A two-headed eagle symbolized the dual power that exists in every Orthodox country, as it was Byzantium. One head symbolized secular government or monarch, and the other spiritual or church. This symbol embraces the Russian state that declares itself as the successor of Byzantium. Coat of arms of this country is also two-headed eagle.

Christians in Albania accepted to live in a country with a majority Albanian population but do not give up its centuries flag flag accept the Muslims as a kind of compromise.

Yet the cultural difference between s and sprotinostite two ethnicities gleamed and most apparent in A civil unrest in 1997, when this difference becomes clearly visible, with Ghegs support the government, specifically the then Prime Minister Sali Berisha and Toskite are those most sprotistavuvat to the then government and undertaken in full control of the southern parts of the country.

The situation is something similar now. Again the Democrats in power and opposition calls for protests. Whether and to odvivat the protests, one thing is for sure Albania is clearly still unstable drzhva which can easily be destabilized, but to destabilize the entire region.

On the stability of the Albanian state an additional blow, and it seems the strongest and can be set and klanovskata division and the large influence that have mafia structures, something which is confirmed by the U.S. Institute for Intelligence and Analysis Stratfor.

According to Stratfor power of the government in Tirana is always weak because of the huge division of society into clans and the significant influence of criminal groups. Therefore, Albania could easily fall into chaos, which may have serious regional consequences, and that for two reasons.

First, Member States, Italy and Greece, fear influx of legal and illegal Albanian immigrants.
Second, most western countries consider Albanian criminal groups for the second most powerful networks of organized crime in Europe after the Russian mafia, and the possible conflict, their power would be even more zajknala and they would be in a position to detabiliziraat other countries.

Albania is a land of eagles, proudly declare Albanians, like eagles fly freely. But it's still uncertain as to maintain a free flight of the Albanian people, whether to a powerful and great Albania, or in a different direction or towards a divided country.

[The LION will ROAR]

Could a civil war start in Albania?

Google Translator

Could a civil war start in Albania?

http://kurir.mk/svet/region/16900-Mozna-li-e-graganska-vojna-vo-Albanija

We are one nation in the world, which, although divided into three faiths live peacefully and in a brotherly country, always proudly declare Albanians.

But is it really so?

Undisputed fact is that despite the fact that Albania or Ethnic Religious or not a homogenous country, the population accepted the civic model, ie in Albania Albanian yourself first, then another.

However, recent developments and events of 1997, clearly show the vulnerability of this country. Spring of that year due to the collapse of pyramid schemes riots erupted, first in the south of the country later spread throughout Albania. State institutions have disintegrated completely, and if not interverniraa UN under the leadership of Italy in 1997, Albanian state it seems now would not exist. The conflict has claimed about two thousand lives.

Riots in a few days in Tirana in which three persons perished recall the events of 1997, but also of how vulnerable the Albanian state.

The latest riots are just the culmination of one and polgodishnite tensions between the government of Prime Minister Sali Berisha and the opposition Socialist Party, led by the mayor of Tirana, Edi Rama, who claims Berisha rigged parliamentary elections in June 2009 to keep power.

*But whether the conflicts and divisions in the Albanian society is only political.

If the riots are considered superficial, it is really so, but if analizraat two main Albanian political parties then gets a different impression.

Socialist Party generally has the most support in the southern Albanian cities that are majority Toskite, while the majority in the Democratic Party Ghegs and northern parts of the country is a stronghold of Berisha's Democratic Party.

Between these two ethnicities are centuries-old differences

Ghegs almost completely embraced Islamization, which after many centuries vtisnala deep into their consciousness and though it retained many of its authentic customary law as the law of vendetta, known as the law of Lek Dukadzhini. Among them feel guilty pottisnatiot complex due to the change of faith. Constitute about two thirds of the total population in Albania and live in the northern parts of the country but the majority of Albanians in the region Ghegs

Unlike them Toskite, I live in Southern Albania and most of them are Christians.

The geographical boundary between the two cultures is Shkumbin River, and Tirana is a neutral ground for both groups.
In the past Ghegs were organized into clans and Toskite in the semi-feudal society. Before the Second World War Ghegs dominated the Albanian politics, but after the war many of Toskite coming to power, along with the new Communist government.

Communist dictator Enver Hoxha are trying to suppress these cultural differences. Declared Albania the first atheist state in the world and take anything but holy belonging to the Albanian nation

Genesis of this national ideology begins during the resurgence (Rilindija ") in the last century under the motto:" Religion in Albania is Albanstvoto and it is a single god, and the Albanian state "Cathedral eternal prayer to the deity. And the holiday is proglsen day Albanian flag. Actually the Albanian flag is the only thing that unites all Albanians. While Albanians claim that two-headed eagle characterizes itself as a country of Albania eagles, though the origin of the flag is completely different. Flag roots since the Byzantine Empire. A two-headed eagle symbolized the dual power that exists in every Orthodox country, as it was Byzantium. One head symbolized secular government or monarch, and the other spiritual or church. This symbol embraces the Russian state that declares itself as the successor of Byzantium. Coat of arms of this country is also two-headed eagle.

Christians in Albania accepted to live in a country with a majority Albanian population but do not give up its centuries flag flag accept the Muslims as a kind of compromise.

Yet the cultural difference between s and sprotinostite two ethnicities gleamed and most apparent in A civil unrest in 1997, when this difference becomes clearly visible, with Ghegs support the government, specifically the then Prime Minister Sali Berisha and Toskite are those most sprotistavuvat to the then government and undertaken in full control of the southern parts of the country.

The situation is something similar now. Again the Democrats in power and opposition calls for protests. Whether and to odvivat the protests, one thing is for sure Albania is clearly still unstable drzhva which can easily be destabilized, but to destabilize the entire region.

On the stability of the Albanian state an additional blow, and it seems the strongest and can be set and klanovskata division and the large influence that have mafia structures, something which is confirmed by the U.S. Institute for Intelligence and Analysis Stratfor.

According to Stratfor power of the government in Tirana is always weak because of the huge division of society into clans and the significant influence of criminal groups. Therefore, Albania could easily fall into chaos, which may have serious regional consequences, and that for two reasons.

First, Member States, Italy and Greece, fear influx of legal and illegal Albanian immigrants.
Second, most western countries consider Albanian criminal groups for the second most powerful networks of organized crime in Europe after the Russian mafia, and the possible conflict, their power would be even more zajknala and they would be in a position to detabiliziraat other countries.

Albania is a land of eagles, proudly declare Albanians, like eagles fly freely. But it's still uncertain as to maintain a free flight of the Albanian people, whether to a powerful and great Albania, or in a different direction or towards a divided country.

[Soldier of Macedon]

On the gheg/tosk issue, one has to simply go on a albanian forum and see the in fighting between the two groups.........

Here is another example:

http://www.albanian.com/v4/showthread.php?t=21222&page=14 

Originally Posted by Xhemë Hasa
2 mil northerners; 2 mil kosovars; 750,000 - albo-maqedonc and 50,000 malesor - that puts us Geg's at close to 5 mil. Does the former ruling elite from the south feel threatened by this? Is this why we have hellenic conversion?

Believe me theres not 2 millions Ghegs in Albania thats the trick and lie that Tosk try to fool ghegs with. The only major city in Albania that has a lot of Ghegs is Shkroder but Shkroder also has a lot of Serbs and ALboz who mixed with Serbs.

If Kosova unified with Albania the Gheg and Tosk would probably even out but you have to remember that there is Tosk in Kosova too.

The Gheg outnumbering the Tosk is not the reason these two states wont unify...its because Albanians dont care about for love of country and people like the Slavs, Germans and Anglo-Saxons but their obsessed with money and kosova uniting is not going to do anything for them finacially and Kosova doesnt want to united because their so busy trying to prove their are better and smarter than other Shqiptar states. Kosova wants to create a great state with great economy and prove to other shqiptar their smarter but in retrospect they will never do that by themselves it will be because of EU and USA financial assistance

There are no serbs in shkoder, the only minorities in shkoder are in Vrake where the montenegrens live. However youll find serb villages in tropoje!

Second, xheme hasa is turning this into another "we are better" dialog, which is really stupid.

Third, Albania is the leader others follow...., whether yous liek to unite or not its up to you's. I suggest that albos from outside albania should look more into their own problems as they have a bigger problem then thsoe in albania. Albania does not want unstable regions, albanians of Albania are tired of wars, blood feuds and unstable politics and therefore will never support anyone who brings trouble to the table.

No. We outside the borders of Albania proper could give 2 shts about the division. I'm just pointing out how the animosity exists. Label it what you want, north vs. south - geg vs. tosk - whatever, that's what it comes down too and it's retarded. You can even see through the posts here how divided the loyalty is.

As for who's better? We all got issues - only way we will all be better off is collectively under one roof - with Prishtina at the helm.

Originally Posted by Xhemë Hasa

As for who's better? We all got issues - only way we will all be better off is collectively under one roof - with Prishtina at the helm.

LOL... who, Thaci is going to rule you? Kosovar leaders have proved that they are even bigger retards than the ones from Albania proper. That says it all.

If there is always something to divide albanians it always comes from outside albania, religious, tribal and ect always ones outside albania create divisions in this forum ALWAYS. Never hear Albanians from Albania talk about geg tosk crap or religious divions or anything else.

No I'm not. It's constructive criticism and if you don't like it, then good because you prove my point that something fundamentally is wrong. Blood feuds in the north, Slavization of Malsia, mafia political parties in MK, the cultural recession of Kosovar's to the Hellenic conversions taking place in the south - we all have our problems and I've been vocal about them all.

Prishtina as a capital of a united Albania is a good compromise for all.

As for Serbia, they could care less about you and me at this point; their alcoholism, myth of a culture and limp ka/rri's aren't helping their population. You won't get anywhere with negative growth. Same goes with MK.

Oh, they exist, and being ignorant to them helps no-one. Recognizing them and overcoming them are necessery for our collecitve goal of national unity.

I see no patriotism from notherners killing their own over some stupid mid-evil form of rettribution.

I see no patriotism from Albo parties in MK shaking down and cheating their own people.

I see no patriotism from a southerner taking 200 Euro's a month for his soul.

I see no patriotism from Kosovar's assimilating to foreign cultural norms.

I see no patriotism in Malesor's speaking Serbian.

So Rota KA-RI qe jeni ju more...Boo BOOBOOOOO The first time i heard geg and tosk was in this website and it does not exist in real life so stfu.
You people from Kosovo just love to find division...its actually amazing.... And if your going to end up like the other fanatic retard then FU-K you too... po te jet mentaliteti i shumices te Kosovareve....FU-CK all of who think like that

i'd probably agree. why are you southerners so sensitive? truth, ouch, hurts? lolll

Why are we sensitive, you are not talking only about the southerners, your talking about all Albanian in general in proper Albania. If you see none of Albanians from proper Albania, be that from south, middle or north is agreeing with you. We never had division, the only time we heard of division, tosk and geg was after we got in contact with people like you.

I don't think its the truth that's hurting Southerners... more like anger that over-exaggerated comments like that come from two-faced people who have even bigger problems and are the ones who should really question their identity.

Everytime I come into contact with people like YOU I always get the - Maqedonc, musliman fanatik - or whatever other insults. Furthermore, your end always tends to refer to Shkoder and others in the region as MALOK - degrading them as if they are cavemen. Now, when the other side calls you Greek or question your patriotism, I too find that degrading. My point is this Aulona - the divisions exist, label it what you want, but their are some core cultural differences between north and south and they are used in justification for the animosity. You say you never knew the divisions until you met people like me but I never new there was a difference either until I seen the way some people in Albania act towards one-another. In Ilirda, we don't know the diff. between this or that, shqiptar is shqiptar to us. mirdita is mirdita. We need cultural fusion because it is this division that is apparent that will cause problems for us. Just like religious divisions, inter-cultural divisions are even more serious in my opinion.

As far as I know, if you have noticed the albanians from Albania proper don't really fight with each other at all, until the outsiders such as yourselves come and make some indirect reminders, and even then, we barely find any differences.

Division my friend exists in every country, whatever label you want to put in it. Sorry to disappoint you, but once again people from proper Albania did not have any of these issues for the reason, that there were southerners that moved to live in north, as so were northrens came and lived in south.

You tell us how we call some of you about religion!? Look @ the ones form Kosova in the "Recognition thread". At least we are fair don't keep any religion, while the others were ripping each other appart in name of religion.



Quote:
In Ilirda, we don't know the diff. between this or that, shqiptar is shqiptar to us. mirdita is mirdita. We need cultural fusion because it is this division that is apparent that will cause problems for us. Just like religious divisions, inter-cultural divisions are even more serious in my opinion.

I don't know what is what in Ilirida as I haven't been there, only what I heard. I doubted you have been to Albania either. You say Mirdita is Mirdita! And what is that suppose to mean! Does this mean that you speak only Albanian!

Let me stressed it out again as me and many other albanians form all parts of Albania told you! We never heard division, until we heard people like you try not to make culturar fusion, but culturar division.

As for some calling me or many southerners traitors! Well guess what those traitors open their houses for them in the time of need and we will do it again no matter what they call us, cause the problem is, we do not care us much about greeks, serbs or turks, before we care about anyone that shares our blood and values

What I noticed in this forum is that only the Albanians outside our borders are causing all the drama, division, and hatred. Us from Albania proper, we are the last ones who would want to separate our people but when provoked, we can hurt you too. There is no division in Albania. Go to Tirana, Ghegs and Tosks live peacefully together. We are brothers and nobody is judging based on where someone is from. I find completely ridiculous what some of our "brothers" outside our border are claiming. It seems like they are getting a joy out of the Himare conflict and exaggerate the truth. Is it to overshadow their own problems? Where is this complex coming from?

One thing is for sure, they have no clue what is going on in Albania.

if we are albanian and brothers why would you want to hurt me/us. how albanian of you to say this.

don't get me started on the north and your neanderthal gjakmarje. TURP.

I agree, it should all be like Tirane. But, it aint.

As for our problems - we got big problems in Iliride; mafia controlled political parties and greed are ours.

And it goes on. A range of different opinions, but there is clearly a Tosk-Geg divide and the animosity is obvious. This may or may not be the norm, but to suggest that there aren't any issues would be a lie. I found it interesting how they're arguing about where the capital should be, as if Albania will ever change its capital from Tirana to Prishtina. Who knows in this crazy world. Most normal Albanians who aren't extremists seem to be from Albania.