The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

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  • Amphipolis
    Banned
    • Aug 2014
    • 1328

    Originally posted by Coleman View Post
    is Greece's population increasing or decreasing?
    Decreasing
    Αυξήθηκε ή μειώθηκε ο πληθυσμός της χώρας κατά τη διάρκεια της κρίσης; Πώς κινήθηκε το προσδόκιμο ζωής και ποιες είναι οι μακροπρόθεσμες προβλέψεις για το δημογραφικό προφίλ της χώρας;

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    • tchaiku
      Member
      • Nov 2016
      • 786

      Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
      From the paper of post#654, how little things change in 700 years.

      The author of the Chronicle of the Tocco, probably a Greek from Ioannina, also emphasizes this cultural gap:

      They thought that in Ioannina there were Albanians
      Pig-keepers of their kind, and that they would submit to them;
      But there were Roman archons and courageous soldiers.

      Actually the Chronicle of the Tocco multiplies the contemptuous comments about Albanian customs and Albanians generally, frequently recounting their ignorance (underlined by words like ἀμάθητοι, “the ones who did not learn”, ἀπαιδευσία, “lack of education”, ἀγνωσία, “lack of knowledge”, χονδρότητα, “roughness”, παχύτητα, “coarseness”) and their vulgar language and lack of morality (underlined by words as λείξευροι, λείξουροι, “greedy”, σκληροί, “cruel”, κακόγνωμοι, “bad-tempered”, ἐπίορκοι, “perjurers”, κλέπται, “thieves”), all of which characteristics were supposedly the consequence of their “Albanian nature”.

      The same source offers more positive descriptions on some Albanians, or at least does not use such pejorative terms. This is the case of course when they are allied to Carlo Tocco, but also, for example, of Gjin Boua Spata, despot of Arta, who often made war against Ioannina and against Carlo Tocco. These descriptions however do not gainsay the fact that, for the most part, the Chronicle proclaims an inveterate hostility between the two populations.

      The Chronicle of Ioannina although less aggressive, recounts the δυστροπία [peevishness] and the κακογνωμία [bad-temperedness] of the Albanians.
      They are you. So that is quite a massive change from the descendants of pig keepers nowadays trying to pull something from Plato's ass.

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      • tchaiku
        Member
        • Nov 2016
        • 786

        Πλήθος Αλβανών κατέκλυσαν και τα Ιόνια. Σύμφωνα με τον Ουίλλιαμ Μίλλερ, έως το 1470, είχαν έλθει 15.000 στη Λευκάδα από την Ήπειρο και 10.000 στη Ζάκυνθο. (Ιστορία τής Φραγκοκρατίας εν Ελλάδι, τόμ. III, σελ. 47.) Το 1528 ο Αλβανικός πληθυσμός τής Ζακύνθου είχε αυξηθεί στα 17.255 άτομα.

        Many Albanians flooded the Ionian Sea. According to William Miller, by 1470, there had been 15,000 in Lefkada from Epirus and 10,000 in Zakynthos. ("History of the Frankish Empire in Greece", vol. III, p. 47). In 1528 the Albanian population of Zakynthos had grown to 17,255 people.

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        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          Comment

          • Amphipolis
            Banned
            • Aug 2014
            • 1328

            Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
            Many Albanians flooded the Ionian Sea. According to William Miller, by 1470, there had been 15,000 in Lefkada from Epirus and 10,000 in Zakynthos. ("History of the Frankish Empire in Greece", vol. III, p. 47). In 1528 the Albanian population of Zakynthos had grown to 17,255 people
            First of all, this comes from free inquiry website. Isn't that alarming enough for you?

            Secondly, do you really process (and how exactly) this fragmentary (a la Calin) spate of data and quotes? It sounds like foreigners arrived and settled millions of times in Greece, all Greeks died millions of times by wars, earthquakes and plagues and in the end you have only Greeks and no foreigners. Does that initiate any thoughts or doubts in your mind?

            For instance,

            I'm pretty sure these 10,000 Albanians passed through the island and must have left their mark somewhere in Zakynthos as this detailed history of the island reveals.



            A mark? Wait... Is Albanian Wikipedia on Zakynthos more helpful?

            Comment

            • tchaiku
              Member
              • Nov 2016
              • 786

              Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
              First of all, this comes from free inquiry website. Isn't that alarming enough for you?

              Secondly, do you really process (and how exactly) this fragmentary (a la Calin) spate of data and quotes? It sounds like foreigners arrived and settled millions of times in Greece, all Greeks died millions of times by wars, earthquakes and plagues and in the end you have only Greeks and no foreigners. Does that initiate any thoughts or doubts in your mind?

              For instance,

              I'm pretty sure these 10,000 Albanians passed through the island and must have left their mark somewhere in Zakynthos as this detailed history of the island reveals.



              A mark? Wait... Is Albanian Wikipedia on Zakynthos more helpful?
              From your link:

              By 1460, and during the reign of Mehmed II, the Ottoman Turks eventually controlled most of the Peloponnese with the exception of the remaining Venetian-controlled towns of Argos, Napflion, Monemvassia, Methoni and Koroni. After the collapse of the Hexamilion, which was supposed to act as a defense across the Isthmus of Corinth; and hence, protect the Peloponnese, Leonardo III Tocco made an agreement with Venice to accept 10,000 refugees from this region. Leonardo III Tocco and his realm was increasingly vulnerable from Ottoman Turkish attacks. These refugees consisted of "Greeks", Arvanite-speaking "Greeks" and some Venetian officials. Some of them were Stradiotes (see below) which Leonardo III Tocco must have figured would act as a bulwark against the Ottoman Turks.



              But yeah the number seems inflated.
              Last edited by tchaiku; 02-16-2018, 02:14 PM.

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              • tchaiku
                Member
                • Nov 2016
                • 786

                In various medieval sources the recruits are mentioned either as "Greeks" or Albanians. The bulk of stradioti rank and file were of Albanian origin from regions of Greece, but by the middle of the 16th century there is evidence that many of them had been Hellenized and in some occasions even Italianized.

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                • tchaiku
                  Member
                  • Nov 2016
                  • 786

                  Leo VI the Armenian in his Tactica, how his father Basil I 'byzantinized' the Slavs of his empire:


                  Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας.

                  English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

                  "Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".
                  '

                  Comment

                  • tchaiku
                    Member
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 786

                    The surveys that were carried out under Boeotia Project covered parts of central Boeotia, the villages of Askri and Mavrommati to the west of Thebes, and the village of Pavlos on the northwestern fringes of Boeotia. Apart from a relatively large number of Byzantine potsherds, the surveys also yielded interesting findings of the so-called Slavic pottery. Those were handmade vases, manufactured without the use of a wheel and dated from the 7th to the 9th century.

                    On the basis of pottery chronologies, the decline of Roman population in the rural and urban settlements of southwestern Boeotia could be set in the middle or towards the end of the 7th century, as certain pottery types continue the Roman tradition down to the first half of the 7th century. As to the following period, Early Byzantine glazed pottery of the 7th-9th century has been found in three sites.

                    The first site, Palaiomavrommati, located approximately two kilometres to the southeast of the present-day village of Mavrommati, was probably a settlement of the Slavic raids period, as both surface pottery samples and a remarkable popular narrative about locals’ ancestry indicate. Palaiomavrommati is an isolated site, remote from arable fields and somewhat concealed from its surrounding areas. However, the other two sites that produced early glazed ware of the 7th-9th century are urban settlements, which date back to the Late Roman period: Thespies and Askri. Pottery demonstrates here a seamless transition from late antiquity to the Dark Ages and up to the Middle Byzantine years. Lying in low plains, the two settlements were unfortified, though a Middle Roman period fortification near the medieval village of Thespies (Erimokastro) might as well have sheltered people in case of threat or danger. The same pattern of uninterrupted habitation from the Late Roman to the Byzantine times can be noticed in Hyettus as well.

                    To what extent did these Late Roman settlements with the common Roman pottery types survive in the 7th century, remains an open question. On the other hand Slavs were a society that definitely used pottery. Ample evidence also derives from the toponyms, as well as the seal of “Dargdekavos, archon of Greece” [Δαργδέκαβου, άρχοντος της Ελλάδος] (Dunn, unpublished report), dated around AD 700 according to typological features; he could have been a Greek-Slav local governor (toparch), related to some extent with the Byzantine organization of themata.

                    It appears though that Thespies and Askri survived as small villages, because they yielded surface pottery of the medieval phases in places where habitation goes back to the Late Roman period.

                    As to present-day Askri, Peter Lock noted that, after abandoning its ancient name, it appears in the Middle Byzantine and Frankish sources as the see of the Thebes bishop’s debuty under the name of Zaratova. We could therefore assume a change of name under Slavic influence during the Middle Byzantine period, whereas later it was renamed Panagia, due to identification with a religious site dedicated to the Mother of God (church ruins). If Lock’s hypothesis is correct then Askri was the center of a Slavic settlement amidst Greek populations.

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                    • Coleman
                      Junior Member
                      • Aug 2017
                      • 16

                      Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                      thanks. that was helpful.

                      Comment

                      • tchaiku
                        Member
                        • Nov 2016
                        • 786

                        Carlin when do you think that the Vlachs of Thessaly were (largely) hellenized?

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                        • tchaiku
                          Member
                          • Nov 2016
                          • 786

                          'You must make your children learn Greek.'
                          'Let those who will promise to not use Albanian at home rise and say so, and I shall absolve from all of their sins.'



                          This historical essay explores Greece in the 1990s. It seeks to illuminate vital aspects of the Greek phenomenon using themes such as politics, institutions, society, ideology, foreign policy, geography and culture.

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                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                            Carlin when do you think that the Vlachs of Thessaly were (largely) hellenized?
                            Tchaiku,

                            If we assume that by largely hellenized we mean that the majority of residents of Thessaly became Greek-speaking monolinguals who completely abandoned the use of the Vlach language - I would say approx. early-to-mid-19th century (perhaps as late as 1880's, after the cession of the region of Thessaly and a part of southern Epirus to Greece). This is a guess. I could be wrong, and this "process" took place (much) earlier - but there are few facts which do not give me confidence to go back further than the early-to-mid 19th century timeline (early 19th c. being the lower boundary).

                            In a Bulgarian book I found and read not long ago (from what I recall), it is stated that in the 1820's-1830's, north of Mount Parnassus there were only Vlachs and Albanians (to paraphrase from the book, the entirety of the regions north of Mt. Parnassus was populated by the Albano-Vlach race).

                            Of course, this does not mean that Greek was not known prior to the 1820's/1830's. It was, and it was spoken widely - by the Vlachs and Albanians.

                            It is important to repeat that in general - it is well established that the modern Greek nation was built up in significant part through the assimilation, or "Hellenisation" (or "Self-Hellenisation), of originally non-Greek speaking elements, including Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, and Turkish-speakers of the Orthodox Christian faith. In similar fashion, it has been suggested by competent scholars that at the time of the founding of the Bulgarian state in 1878, less than 50% of the new state's population may have been Bulgarian. Within a few decades this percentage rose to form an unchallengeable majority, partly, at least, through the assimilation of non-Bulgarian elements in the population. (Thessaly was no different.)

                            Comment

                            • tchaiku
                              Member
                              • Nov 2016
                              • 786

                              Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                              Tchaiku,

                              If we assume that by largely hellenized we mean that the majority of residents of Thessaly became Greek-speaking monolinguals who completely abandoned the use of the Vlach language - I would say approx. early-to-mid-19th century (perhaps as late as 1880's, after the cession of the region of Thessaly and a part of southern Epirus to Greece). This is a guess. I could be wrong, and this "process" took place (much) earlier - but there are few facts which do not give me confidence to go back further than the early-to-mid 19th century timeline (early 19th c. being the lower boundary).

                              In a Bulgarian book I found and read not long ago (from what I recall), it is stated that in the 1820's-1830's, north of Mount Parnassus there were only Vlachs and Albanians (to paraphrase from the book, the entirety of the regions north of Mt. Parnassus was populated by the Albano-Vlach race).

                              Of course, this does not mean that Greek was not known prior to the 1820's/1830's. It was, and it was spoken widely - by the Vlachs and Albanians.

                              It is important to repeat that in general - it is well established that the modern Greek nation was built up in significant part through the assimilation, or "Hellenisation" (or "Self-Hellenisation), of originally non-Greek speaking elements, including Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, and Turkish-speakers of the Orthodox Christian faith. In similar fashion, it has been suggested by competent scholars that at the time of the founding of the Bulgarian state in 1878, less than 50% of the new state's population may have been Bulgarian. Within a few decades this percentage rose to form an unchallengeable majority, partly, at least, through the assimilation of non-Bulgarian elements in the population. (Thessaly was no different.)
                              I would have to disagree with you, here. Due to the fact that the references of Vlachs after the 14th century became more minimal my guess is that maybe large numbers of them were hellenized by the late dark ages. (and the other half during the Ottoman period together with the Albanians) However I strongly believe that they were not that numerous during the 19th century (as the historical documents imply).
                              However it is hard to tell, this is why I asked your opinion.

                              Greek nationalist propaganda for the assimilation of Albanians Aromanians and other 'barbaric' speakers is well documented during the 18th century I don't know much about before.

                              Here you have:

                              Google Advanced Book Searcher you can add the date from 1100-1700 for more specific material that you are looking for.
                              This was the best I could do:


                              Also what do you think that happened to the previous Greek speakers that inhabited Thessaly and Epirus? In case of Slavs and Albanians massive wars, the Black Death and the plague of Justinian can largely explain, however Vlachs remain a mystery to me.
                              Last edited by tchaiku; 02-26-2018, 10:44 AM.

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                              • Carlin
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 3332



                                Today's Epirotes = Hellenized Albanians, Bulgarians and Vlachs.

                                Year 1821 = Athens and Euboea (Evia) mainly populated by Albanians.

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