The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Carlin]

[Amphipolis]

Did you know there's a village of black people in Greece? I first heard about it in the 1980s and thought of searching about them in the internet era. The village is called Avaton and is in Thrace. Back then (in less politically correct times) they were saying these blacks were so idiot that they didn't even know when/where they came from, even though they came quite recently.

The first theory was that they were African slaves of the Turks that were offered liberty during the population exchanges.

Another theory was that they were a black battalion of a European Army that stayed in Thrace after WWI.

Here's a link and pictures of them. As they say, now that they have started to mix with whites, they have become whiter/colorful. I may be wrong, but I think they are Muslims, and according to the link they come from Sudan or they were originally sold as slaves in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=415642

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[Risto the Great]

75% slavic, 10% "new Greek", 10% "ancient" and 10% Albanian.

Almost 1000 years ago.
But pure Greek now.

[Amphipolis]

75% slavic, 10% "new Greek", 10% "ancient" and 10% Albanian.

Almost 1000 years ago.
But pure Greek now.

LOL, If Kiepert considers 75% of the toponyms in South Greece as Slavic, I would like to see this paper and this list.

[Risto the Great]

LOL, nobody is talking about the names they use now. We all know they're pure Greek now

[Amphipolis]

LOL, nobody is talking about the names they use now. We all know they're pure Greek now

I'm interested in all eras and lists of names. This is Kiepert's map (good zoom options):

https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/collections/maps/kiepert/G6801-E1-1882-K5.html

Where are the Slavic names?

[tchaiku]

Tsakonians called themselves Tsakones. So I ask if they were indeed ancient Hellenes, why didn't they call themselves Ellines or Dorian like an Hellene would?

[Carlin]

Did you know there's a village of black people in Greece? I first heard about it in the 1980s and thought of searching about them in the internet era. The village is called Avaton and is in Thrace. Back then (in less politically correct times) they were saying these blacks were so idiot that they didn't even know when/where they came from, even though they came quite recently.

The first theory was that they were African slaves of the Turks that were offered liberty during the population exchanges.

Another theory was that they were a black battalion of a European Army that stayed in Thrace after WWI.

Here's a link and pictures of them. As they say, now that they have started to mix with whites, they have become whiter/colorful. I may be wrong, but I think they are Muslims, and according to the link they come from Sudan or they were originally sold as slaves in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=415642

===

This is quite interesting. I assume these villagers are rather fluent Greek-speakers?

It shows plainly and demonstrates how irrelevant, 'scientifically' speaking, are people's beliefs in terms of how they feel regarding their ethnic or racial descent. The Avanton residents came recently, no? (I wonder when did they actually arrive?)

Nevertheless, they arrived "recently" yet there are already at least a couple of "competing theories" floating around as to their history, country or place of origin.

If these villagers had a different skin color or religion (i.e. same skin color as modern Greeks) I am sure they would have the 'right' and 'option' to declare themselves as descendants of ancient Hellenes. I am sure there would be scholars formulating theories to this effect. Alas, their skin color betrays their origin.

[Carlin]

Just sharing the following. Do not agree with some of the explanations & theories, as they seem to be speculation.

THE SLAVS IN THE PELOPONNESUS — (P. 323-4)

All unprejudiced investigators now admit the cogency of the evidence which shows that by the middle of the eighth century there was a very large Slavonic element in the population of the Peloponnesus1 The Slavonic settlements began in the latter half of the sixth century, and in the middle of the eighth century the depopulation caused by the great plague invited the intrusion of large masses. The general complexion of the peninsula was so Slavonic that it was called Sclavonia. The only question to be determined is, how were these strangers distributed, and what parts of the Peloponnesus were Slavised? For answering these questions, the names of places are our chief evidence. Here, as in the Slavonic districts which became part of Germany, the Slavs ultimately gave up their own language and exerted hardly any sensible influence on the language which they adopted; but they introduced new local names which survived. It was just the reverse, as has been well remarked by Philippson, in the case of the Albanese settlers, who in the fourteenth century brought a new ethnical element into the Peloponnesus. The Albanians preserved their own language, but the old local names were not altered.


Now we find Slavonic names scattered about in all parts of the Peloponnesus; but they are comparatively few on the Eastern side, in Argolis and Eastern Laconia. They are numerous in Arcadia and Achaia, in Elis, Messenia and Western Laconia. But the existence of Slavonic settlements does not prove that the old Hellenic inhabitants were abolished in these districts. In fact we can only say that a large part of Elis, the slopes of Taygetus, and a district in the south of Laconia, were exclusively given over to the Slavs. Between Megalopolis and Sparta there was an important town, which has completely disappeared, called Veligosti; and this region was probably a centre of Slavonic settlers.
See the impartial investigation of Dr. A. Philippson, Zur Ethnographie des Peloponnes in Petermann’s Mittheilungen, vol. 36, p. 1 sqq. and 33 sqq., 1890.


The conversion and Hellenisation of the Slavs went on together from the ninth century, and, with the exception of the settlements in Taygetus and the Arcadian mountains, were completed by the twelfth century. At the time of the conquest of the Peloponnesus by Villehardouin, four ethnical elements are distinguished by Philippson: (1) Remains of the old Hellenes, mixed with Slavs, in Maina and Tzakonia, (2) Byzantine Greeks (i.e., Byzantinised Hellenes, and settlers from other parts of the Empire) in the towns. (3) Greek-speaking Slavo-Greeks (sprung from unions of Slavs and Greeks). (4) Almost pure Slavs in Arcadia and Taygetus. The 2nd and 3rd classes tend to coalesce and ultimately become indistinguishable (except in physiognomy).


The old Greek element lived on purest perhaps in the district between Mt. Parnon and the Sea — Eastern Laconia. The inhabitants came to be called Tzakones and the district Tzakonia; and they developed a remarkable dialect of their own. They were long supposed to be Slavs. See A. Thumb, Die ethnographische Stellung der Zakonen (Indogerm. Forschungen, iv. 195 sqq., 1894).


Fallmerayer, in harmony with his Slavonic theory, proposed to derive the name Morea from the Slavonic more, sea. This etymology defied the linguistic laws of Slavonic word-formation. Other unacceptable derivations have been suggested, but we have at last got back to the old mulberry, but in a new sense. ὁ Μορέας is formed from μορέα, “mulberry tree,” with the meaning “plantation or region of mulberry trees” (= μορεών). We find the name first applied to Elis, whence it spread to the whole Peloponnesus; and it is a memorial of the extensive cultivation of mulberries for the manufacture of silk. This explanation is due to the learned and scientific Greek philologist, M. G. N. Hatzidakês (Byz. Zeitsch. vol. 2, p. 283 sqq., and vol. 5, p. 341, sqq.).


[1 ]The thesis of Fallmerayer, who denied that there were any descendants of the ancient Hellenes in Greece, was refuted by Hopf (and Hertzberg and others); but all Hopf’s arguments are not convincing. Fallmerayer’s brilliant book stimulated the investigation of the subject (Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea im Mittelalter, 2 vols., 1830-6).

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/gibbon-the-history-of-the-decline-and-fall-of-the-roman-empire-vol-9

[Amphipolis]

This is quite interesting. I assume these villagers are rather fluent Greek-speakers?

It shows plainly and demonstrates how irrelevant, 'scientifically' speaking, are people's beliefs in terms of how they feel regarding their ethnic or racial descent. The Avanton residents came recently, no? (I wonder when did they actually arrive?)

Nevertheless, they arrived "recently" yet there are already at least a couple of "competing theories" floating around as to their history, country or place of origin.

If these villagers had a different skin color or religion (i.e. same skin color as modern Greeks) I am sure they would have the 'right' and 'option' to declare themselves as descendants of ancient Hellenes. I am sure there would be scholars formulating theories to this effect. Alas, their skin color betrays their origin.

Muslims of Thrace are good Greek-speakers, not always fluent.

Slavery in Ottoman Empire was abolished in the 1880s. These were probably slaves from Sudan to Saudi Arabia for some generations before being sold to Thrace. So my guess is they arrived here in the 1880s the latest.

I don’t see how a white Christian foreigner can declare a descendant of ancient Greeks.

[Risto the Great]

I don’t see how a white Christian foreigner can declare a descendant of ancient Greeks.

Finally we agree.

[Amphipolis]

By the way the text of post#504 is written by the editor of the book (John Bagnell Bury) in the early 1900s to correct the author (Edward Gibbon from late 1700s) or give updated information.

Based on this I would like to see more from Philippson and his categories or is it already posted here?

[Carlin]

I have not been able to find more from Philippson.

[tchaiku]

During the Greek revolution they conquered a small island. They proclaimed to the villagers they were free Greeks. Some little children walked up, with a thick accent, and they said:

“We are not Greeks, we are Romans.”

Turks still call Greeks Rum when they are not in Greece: Greek Cypriots, and the Greek minority in Turkey.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

During the Greek revolution they conquered a small island. They proclaimed to the villagers they were free Greeks. Some little children walked up, with a thick accent, and they said:

“We are not Greeks, we are Romans.”

Turks still call Greeks Rum when they are not in Greece: Greek Cypriots, and the Greek minority in Turkey.

No surprises here, pleny of evidence of the populace of what is now called Greece declaring themselves to be Romans and their language 'Romaika'