The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[tchaiku]

Slavs retreated Pindos mountains, western Crete, Laconia* in 11th century according to this book:

https://books.google.com/books?id=mQYXAQAAIAAJ&q=slavs+pindos+mountains+s+retreat&dq=slavs+pindos+mountains+s+retreat&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL2eWAr6nTAhUBOhQKHby3CooQ6AEIJDAA

Mysteriously Vlachs appear in those zones times after.


* - Keep in your mind that Slavs according to Byzantine historians ruled Peloponnese for over 200 years, so it puts things on perspective. Also it is fair to mention that non Slavic population start appearing in those zones after ''Hellenization'' of those Slavs.

[Carlin]

Slavs retreated Pindos mountains, western Crete, Laconia* in 11th century according to this book:

https://books.google.com/books?id=mQYXAQAAIAAJ&q=slavs+pindos+mountains+s+retreat&dq=slavs+pindos+mountains+s+retreat&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL2eWAr6nTAhUBOhQKHby3CooQ6AEIJDAA

Mysteriously Vlachs appear in those zones times after.


* - Keep in your mind that Slavs according to Byzantine historians ruled Peloponnese for over 200 years, so it puts things on perspective. Also it is fair to mention that non Slavic population start appearing in those zones after ''Hellenization'' of those Slavs.

Good find.

[tchaiku]

The Vlachs of Thessaly first appear in Byzantine sources in the 11th century, in the Strategikon of Kekaumenos and Anna Komnene's Alexiad. Kekaumenos, who wrote in the late 1070s, in particular stresses both their transhumanism as well as their disdain of imperial authorities.

Kekaumenos records a failed Vlach uprising of 1066, under the unwilling leadership of Nikoulitzas Delphinas, a relative of his and grandson of the original Nikoulitzas, whom Emperor Basil II (r. 976–1025) placed to rule over the Thessalian Vlachs.

Anna Komnene reports a Vlach settlement near Mount Ossa in 1083, in connection with the campaign of her father, Alexios I Komnenos (r. 1081–1118), against the Normans

[Carlin]

From Capital to Colony: Five New Inscriptions from Roman Crete

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/annual-of-the-british-school-at-athens/article/from-capital-to-colony-five-new-inscriptions-from-roman-crete1/93948C0CC6BD944FC17D0B297EB6BE19

This article present and contextualises five new inscriptions from central Crete: one from the hinterland of Gortyn, two from Knossos, and two more in all likelihood from Knossos. Internal geographical mobility from Gortyn to Knossos is illustrated by a Greek inscription from the hinterland of Gortyn. The Knossian inscriptions add new evidence for the local affairs of the Roman colony. A funerary or honorary inscription and two religious dedications – all three in Latin – give rise to new points concerning the well-attested link between Knossos and Campania. The colony's population included people, many of Campanian origin, who were already established in Crete, as well as families displaced from southern Italy in the great post-Actium settlement. The two religious dedications shed light on the city's religious practice, including a newly revealed cult of Castor, and further evidence for worship of the Egyptian gods. Oddest of all, a Greek inscription on a Doric epistyle names Trajan or Hadrian. These four inscriptions are then set into the context of linguistic choice at the colony. Epigraphic and numismatic evidence for the use of Latin and Greek in the life of the colony is analyzed on the basis of the available inscriptions, listed by category and date in an appendix.


Campania

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campania

Map showing the "roman coloniae" in the second century, after Trajan

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg

Check out the concentration in Greece (including Crete), Macedonia and Albania when compared to other European regions and areas. Moreover, note that modern Romania is completely empty of "roman coloniae". Also, Sardinia and Corsica seem relatively untouched when compared to either Macedonia or Greece.

Looking at this map it should not be surprising that "Vlach-speakers" emerge in Byzantine times 'from' all over Greece, Macedonia, and Albania, comprising the bulk and majority in many different regions.

[tchaiku]

In these times, their migratory lifestyle earned them a bad reputation. In 980 emperor Basil II conferred the dominion over the Vlachs of Thessaly on one Nicoulitza. The Vlachs in Thessaly and parts of Macedonia became very numerous during the 11th century revolt of the Vlachs in 1066 under their chieftain Verivoi, as attested by the Byzantine historian Kekaumenos, would provide total independence. As Kekaumenos records, a first revolt against imperial rule occurred in 1066, but it was not until after the collapse of the Empire in the Fourth Crusade that the Vlachs would set up their own, autonomous, principality - "Great Wallachia". The chronicles of Nicetas Choniates, Benjamin of Tudela,[2] Geoffroy de Villehardouin, Henri de Valenciennes, Robert de Clary, and other sources account for the existence of this state, comprising Thessaly, as opposed to other two "Wallachias", "Little Wallachia" in Acarnania and Aetolia, and an "Upper Wallachia" in Epirus. This coincides with the period of the first Vlachian state entities across the Balkan Peninsula: Great Wallachia, Wallachia and Moldavia. Benjamin of Tudela, a Spanish Jew who visited Thessaly in 1173, describes the Vlachs as living in the mountains and coming down from them to attack the Greeks. In relation with the Byzantine Empire, he adds: "no Emperor can conquer them".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Aromanians

D. Seward and S. Mountgarret - Byzantium: A Journey and a Guide; Harrap, London 1985 (p.183 etc.): Metsovo is the Greek capital of this shepherd race. After the Empire's temporary collapse in 1204 the Vlachs even set up their own kingdom of Great Wallachia
Jump up ^ Libro de Viages de Benjamin de Tudela, Volume VIII, p. 63.
Jump up ^ Libro de Viages de Benjamin de Tudela.

[Amphipolis]

As Kekaumenos records, a first revolt against imperial rule occurred in 1066, but it was not until after the collapse of the Empire in the Fourth Crusade that the Vlachs would set up their own, autonomous, principality - "Great Wallachia". The chronicles of Nicetas Choniates, Benjamin of Tudela,[2] Geoffroy de Villehardouin, Henri de Valenciennes, Robert de Clary, and other sources account for the existence of this state, comprising Thessaly, as opposed to other two "Wallachias", "Little Wallachia" in Acarnania and Aetolia, and an "Upper Wallachia" in Epirus.

Cough, cough. Really? That sounds great. And what was the name of this principality? Was it "Great Wallachia"? Who was the king? What was its' policy? And how long did it last?

[tchaiku]

Cough, cough. Really? That sounds great. And what was the name of this principality? Was it "Great Wallachia"? Who was the king? What was its' policy? And how long did it last?

That means that those Vlachs were so unruly towards Greeks (Romans) and Byzantine Empire that they wanted complete independence. This is also useful when it comes to Carlin's claims about Byzantine Empire being called Aromania.

So it indicates that they were a product of a migration and foreign to the empire.

[Carlin]

When Stefan Dušan conquered lands all the way up to Duchy of Athens, he called himself "Count of Vlachia." Settlements of Vlachs are also mentioned at that time in Euboea, the Peloponnese and even Crete.

Source:
Даскалов, Георги, Армъните в Гърция, Университетско издателство "Св. Климент Охридски", София, 2005, page 21

[Carlin]

Cough, cough. Really? That sounds great. And what was the name of this principality? Was it "Great Wallachia"? Who was the king? What was its' policy? And how long did it last?

Please take a look at my post #426 on this same thread, and let me know if you need detailed translation.

As per the scan #426:
- Thessaly used to be called 'Great Vlachia' or 'Megali Vlachia', with the capital Larissa.
- The Chronicle of Epirus refers to 'Great Vlachia' as 'Greco-Vlachia'.
- 'Great Vlachia' was a strong state during the decades of its ruler "Jovan I" (as written in Serbian), which was between 1258 and 1296.
- This Vlach state was under frequent attacks from Serbian rulers, as even the archbishop Danilo* noted - how king Milutin went with his army in order to conquer and plunder "drzhavu zemlye Vlahiotske".

(Drzhava = state, Zemlya = country)

* - Danilo II: Zhivoti kraljeva i arhiepiskopa srpskih, izdao Djura Danicic Zagreb 1866, page 114.

[Carlin]

I am not aware of coming across this before - so I'm adding it here. It is found in a Bulgarian book, written by Yordan Ivanov.

Footnote 3 (the text in Greek) basically states that the Sklavini devastated all Thessaly, nearby islands and those of Helada, also the Cyclades along with entire Achaia, Epirus, the bigger part of Illyricum and part of Asia.

[tchaiku]

I am not aware of coming across this before - so I'm adding it here. It is found in a Bulgarian book, written by Yordan Ivanov.

Footnote 3 (the text in Greek) basically states that the Sklavini devastated all Thessaly, nearby islands and those of Helada, also the Cyclades along with entire Achaia, Epirus, the bigger part of Illyricum and part of Asia.

Good find. So Vlachs settled there later.

[Carlin]

[tchaiku]

[B]SLAVS IN MIDDLE AGES


a) Mazaris wrote:

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

Μάζαρις (Mazaris) :

«Δέδοικα ουν ίνα μη γένωμαι και αυτός διατρίβων εν Σπάρτη ώσπερ εν τη Κωνσταντίνου γέγονεν ο Πελοποννήσιος εκείνος, Συναδινός ο Κορμέας, ή ίνα μη βαρβαρωθώ και αυτός ώσπερ άρα βεβαρβάρωνταί γε οι Λάκωνες, και νυν κέκληνται Τζάκωνες, και πιάσον τα και σφίξον τα, και δώσον τα, και ήμενον, και ηρχόντησαν, και καθεζούτησαν, και έλαδε, πα, και αιτιτοίωσέν (ετετοίωσέν) τον, και άλλ’ άττα βάρβαρα λέγουσιν» [Μάζαρις 1831, 164 και Μάζαρις 1860, 230].


Google Translate:
"I do not know what I am, and he is in Sparta while Constantine is the Peloponnesian who is, the Syrian of Kormeas, or is not barbarous, and hence the barbarians of the Laconians, and now Jacokes are called, and as long as they tighten them, They gave birth to them, and they lived, and they departed, and received, and cried out, and another barbarous word. "[Mavaris 1831, 164 and Mavaris 1860, 230].

[Carlin]

Mazaris described the characteristic features of each one of the ethnic groups in the Peloponnese.

The Laconians, he says, were known for their "vanity and perfidy... their tendency toward slander and blackmail, their bragging and drunkenness, their utter miserliness and low cunning". The Slavs were cruel, savage, brutal, bloodthirsty, known for their "robbery and barbarity, their hatred of the powers that be, their hatred of God". The Albanians (the text has Illyrians) influenced others by "their deceit and spying, their brutal methods of levying taxes, their soberness in the matter of clothing and luxuries... their thievishness, their fickleness, and their sly, crooked ways".

The "Laconians", or "Tsacones", were a people whose origin was associated with the invasion of the peninsula by the "Slavs".

The existence of Jewish communities at the time of Mazaris is well known, and the evidence for the significant presence of Gypsies is very good. The information about the Gypsies in the region of Nauplion and in Modon is particularly detailed (=> George C. Soulis, "The Gypsies in the Byzantine Empire and the Balkans in the Late Middle Ages", Dumbarton Oaks Papers 15 (1961), 152-154).

Returning to the Slavs - the historian Menander in one fragment wrote: "While Hellas was pillaged by the Slavs and successive perils gathered against her from every side, Tiberius, who did not have capable forces to fight, not even against one detachment of his enemies... sent an embassy to the prince of the Avars".

Another source of evidence consists of two entries in the Latin chronicle of John of Biclar. One of these entries reads: "... the Avars were driven from the borders of Thrace and occupied parts of Greece (Graecia) and Pannonia."

And the other: "The people of the Slavs devastated Illyricum and Thrace".

On the demography of medieval Greece : a problem solved
Peter Charanis

Link:

https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/view/5113

[tchaiku]

Isidore of Kiev referred to Laconians as barbaric according to Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium.