The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Giorikas]

I see you still referred to Greeks and some other ethnicity near borders.
I asked about other examples in the Balkans EXCLUDING Greeks.
You have failed to cite one example other than mixed marriages which you now agree was a silly idea.

So, perhaps it is a problem with Greeks exclusively in the Balkans. I think my point is now very clear. The rest is fluff.

I have stated the term Grkoman once (oops twice now) on this forum. I have said Greek many more times. Why on earth do you enjoy the idea of painting us a bad Macedonians who disrespect the Greeks? That is the picture you seek to weave out with your many sentences. Macedonians have a very little request from Greeks, they be acknowledged for their Macedonian identity. Is that too hard for a reasonable person like you?

Risto, I repeat, are you pulling my leg? This is not about Greeks and I am sorry that I confused you. You claim kinsmen all around your borders in fantastic guesstimated numbers too I might add.
I thought you understood that my examples are interchangeable with most Balkan peoples. Put Greeks aside. Do you deny it? Why do you focus on details and do you overlook the big picture?

I acknowledge making many sentences and have already been advised by my much appreciated tutor that it doesn't read well, but thanks for pointing that out to me. I wonder if you would ever tell a Macedonian member that though, but never mind. I am not a native English speaker as yourself so I sometimes need more words to make my point. Also I find short messages with one liners intended to be humorous not to add very much.

[Risto the Great]

I thought you understood that my examples are interchangeable with most Balkan peoples. Put Greeks aside. Do you deny it? Why do you focus on details and do you overlook the big picture?

I asked you to give me examples of this behaviour using any country other than Greece (but still in the Balkans). And you still can't. Even though you suggest it happens all the time. I disagree on this point and you still go on about how normal it is.

I like your sentences. Carry on.

[Giorikas]

I asked you to give me examples of this behaviour using any country other than Greece (but still in the Balkans). And you still can't. Even though you suggest it happens all the time. I disagree on this point and you still go on about how normal it is.

I like your sentences. Carry on.

Risto, you are missing the point by far. I was not talking about countries but about the behavior of minorities. Read back and it will become more clear. I am not accusing Macedonia of turning these people (Greeks in this example I gave) into Macedonians. I just don't know what happened but I don't think she mingled necessarily because of external pressure.
Examples are ample. You have Sudeten Germans that sided with Germans in WW II and then miraculously blended after being part of the Warshaw pact. The reason is obvious, last thing you'd want to be seen as was as Sudeten German. Everyone who decides to give up has it's own reasons and I think in most cases it is not a decision but a gradual process.
There are Jewish who blended all over the Balkans. Some didn't and others went abroad to Israel or the US.
I heard examples when I met an Israeli whose parents escaped Bulgaria in WW II, went to Israel, but other family members stayed losing eventually their Jewish identity. Bit further away (Kiev), you have Vladimir Horowitz marrying the daughter of Toscanini and ended up giving the religious identity.
I believe there are politicians in your country saying the exact opposite. That they were not going to continue denying their heritage after all these years. They seem to have refound their Bulgarian heritage. I have met a Turkish guy (in Moscow) who told me that he was adopted by a Turkish family when he got separated in the 1974 war as a baby. He always wanted to go through life as a Turkish even after his parents told him the story. I can understand that. (even if he wouldn't be pressured by his environment in Ankara)
Being a minority is lonely business sometimes. He even joined and eventually left the Turkish army. This guy eventually refound his Greek (Cypriot) identity without actually knowing his real Greek name he would have had. I can respect that regardless of the example or nationality.
Yugoslavia is a bad example since there the tendancy was NOT to highlight your identity but to become Yugoslavian, the rest was less relevant. The ex-Yugoslavians always pointed out that on personal level tghere were never any problems and even now many Croats have good contacts with Serbians and vica versa (on personal level) Nowadays, the borders are pretty much drawn along ethnic lines, but without being able to give you an example, I am pretty sure that there are still Serbians living in the Krajina scared shitless after the largest etchnic cleansing in the modern Balkan wars (the expulsion of Serbs) who will pass as Croatians.

Satisfied? Can you please tell me what the relevance was of all that? It is obvious that these things happen for all different reasons. By external pressure, or voluntarily. It happens in all countries in the Balkans, and outside the Balkans.

Waiting for your one-liner oh Great Risto, where you will isolate one example that you don't agree with or will disqualify, thus missing utterly the point.
Can you tell me why you disagree with me. Thanks for clarifying that. Also, I asked you what my hidden agenda was. You must have overlooked that one. Please clarify also.

Apologies for the long reply.

[Risto the Great]

My point to this painful exercise G is that only in Greece is this kind of metamorphosis imposed on its people. Rather than a natural erosion of identity after moving country, we are talking about indigenous people losing their identity. This is prevalent in Greece and at least 10 times faster than any other region on the Balkans.

If you do not think this is significant or interesting, then that is your problem. I think it is significant and wonder why it happens and what conditions do people live in that facilitates such rapid change.

In relation to your agenda well apparently there are very few Macedonians in Greece according to you. A casual reader will say ... yes, Giorikas appears to know what he is talking about ... and you are really just another person who tries to downplay the indigenous populations and their significance in Northern Greece.

You say you do not come from there, yet you comment on this often.

[Sv. Nikola]

Can you highlight similar "happenings" in the Balkans outside of Greece?

But as we are outside Macedonia, it is ease to give suggestion, maybe it is brave to learn new but it is on them to try as they live in balkan nation envelop (surround) in their national borders.

They can eat, live thing and learn what is serve to them fro politics.

There are small group who thing for improvement, economically but let ask all balkan nations would the like to have prefer name as it is here in Australia. This +.

Maybe we ask where are gone all fact in Greeks history regarding Macedonian population. Yes Srebrenica ethnic killing -Muslims in Bosnia, new writing in Balkans history,aswell for Macedonian from 1903 till 1948.

Ask them how the are file about whet you have to leave with nothing and build all your live, and takeover for no reason, just because you are different but yours ethnic orientation.

[Giorikas]

My point to this painful exercise G is that only in Greece is this kind of metamorphosis imposed on its people. Rather than a natural erosion of identity after moving country, we are talking about indigenous people losing their identity. This is prevalent in Greece and at least 10 times faster than any other region on the Balkans.

If you do not think this is significant or interesting, then that is your problem. I think it is significant and wonder why it happens and what conditions do people live in that facilitates such rapid change.

In relation to your agenda well apparently there are very few Macedonians in Greece according to you. A casual reader will say ... yes, Giorikas appears to know what he is talking about ... and you are really just another person who tries to downplay the indigenous populations and their significance in Northern Greece.

You say you do not come from there, yet you comment on this often.

Not as much painful as annoying. I take it that with the '10 times faster remark' you admit that these things happen(ed) outside of Greece in the Balkans. Doesn't hurt to say that I was right Risto and even if I'm right on this one it doesn't mean you are wrong on whatever you believe.

So having established that minorities have have mixed in the Balkans, you claim that Greece is an exception to the rest. By 10 times. ( By the way, I never spoke about indigenous people Risto, nice of you to change that essential part of information, but I'll take the bite for the sake of having something to discuss )
Please back that up, since I think that that is difficult for anyone to judge. I do not have a problem with anybody making estimations but for sure you would ask me the same question back. Even you can admit that. So interrogating the Risto way:''please provide me credible and objective numbers of this population size of Macedonians then, and now'.
For this part of the exercise it is important to work the figures to a factor of minimum 10. Of course you are comparing with outside of Greece so kindly provide me a couple of countries to compare it with.

You are making assumptions about what my opinion is, what my agenda and my position on number and the existance of Macedonians in Greece. In fact you are turning this whole discussion around and distorting the point I was making. Please don't do that. I can express myself, though I still have a lot to learn from the one-liner messages you make. Damn Why don't you ask me what I think about it? So much more easy.

[Risto the Great]

Sure, it will happen over many hundreds of years ... even in the Balkans (I am yet to find a good Venetian in Greece or a good Circassian or Armenian in Macedonia). But in Greece, it happened over about 20 years. That is interesting. I just wanted you to give me examples. The Jews in Macedonia still practice their faith without any conversions I am led to believe. The Germans etc ... well, not my concern right now. (But I hope the Lusatian Sorbs retain their identity.)

Naturally I referred to the indigenous people, do you think I am interested in the transformation of the Christians who arrived from Turkey? Not at all.

Now you want me to confirm numbers of indigenous people. I will do that another time. But I simply queried your expertise on the matter based on the fact you said you did not come from there so could not possibly understand the quantum of indigenous people that "transformed" overnight in Northern Greece. You are probably right about me making assumptions, I do that about people.

In fact you are turning this whole discussion around and distorting the point I was making.

Please remind me about what your point was. I honestly can't remember, my eyes glazed over once I started reading about the Turk who was a Cypriot who became a Russian then mated a donkey and turned to Judaism. Seriously, what was the point you were trying to make.

[Giorikas]

Sure, it will happen over many hundreds of years ... even in the Balkans (I am yet to find a good Venetian in Greece or a good Circassian or Armenian in Macedonia). But in Greece, it happened over about 20 years. That is interesting. I just wanted you to give me examples. The Jews in Macedonia still practice their faith without any conversions I am led to believe. The Germans etc ... well, not my concern right now. (But I hope the Lusatian Sorbs retain their identity.)

Naturally I referred to the indigenous people, do you think I am interested in the transformation of the Christians who arrived from Turkey? Not at all.

Now you want me to confirm numbers of indigenous people. I will do that another time. But I simply queried your expertise on the matter based on the fact you said you did not come from there so could not possibly understand the quantum of indigenous people that "transformed" overnight in Northern Greece. You are probably right about me making assumptions, I do that about people.

Please remind me about what your point was. I honestly can't remember, my eyes glazed over once I started reading about the Turk who was a Cypriot who became a Russian then mated a donkey and turned to Judaism. Seriously, what was the point you were trying to make.

Thanks for that Risto:

I was making a general point. You don't waste time and link that to Greece and Macedonians. Fair enough. Couldn't you just make that point from the beginning instead of dismissing each example? With all respect, you react very dodgy and evasive. I am sure you developed this style using oneliners, ansswering question with other questions over the years and serves you well but things can be so much easier if you just get to the point ask me what you want to know.

So you wanted to talk about the indiginous people of Greece (disputed by me) yet you insist on examples outside of Greece in the Balkans and dismiss perfectly good examples. Okaay

So it seems that this discussion is blocked a bit until you substantiate your claims that you seemed very sure of. I will look forward to the information that we need, and please do not change the question I asked you (as you did here): The number of indiginous people is not enough to back up the claim you made. If you want to back it up you need the numbers then (when?), now, the factor has to been seen, and since you are comparing it to other countries, maybe you can mention the countries and the factors etc too. All this from neutral undisputed sources please. Don't dogde this bullet please Risto. I have seen you doing it before when making unsubstantiated claims.

Then: the point..

Please read back my first messages in this thread. My comments were quite harmless and not intended (yet) as an attack on your version of the truth. I would have said so otherwise. I have no problem with that and it's not something that I am uncomfortable with. Heck, the worst thing that can happen is that you convince me of the opposite. That's ok too, I'm open to that.
Anyway, the point, if you do not understand it after reading back, then I will gladly clarify. For now I am trying to minimize the number of lines and not doing a very good job at it too

Your comments on my examples are a bit cheap wouldn't you say? Not even very funny. All the examples I used were genuine and in the end it was you making me come up with examples. You might even find it funny considering your obsession with Greeks but the Cypriot case is not funny. Cheap discussion techniques too, but I am sure all your friends will find it hilarious.

[Risto the Great]

I note you did not spell out what the point was. This thread has 19 pages now and I was merely asking what your initial point was.

And, I know you did it by mistake so will not do anything about it this time, but please do not change any of my text when you quote me. Other people might think I said something different.

[Giorikas]

I note you did not spell out what the point was. This thread has 19 pages now and I was merely asking what your initial point was.

And, I know you did it by mistake so will not do anything about it this time, but please do not change any of my text when you quote me. Other people might think I said something different.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

The point was: Things are not so black and white, especially not in the Balkans. You are what you identify with. In your case Macedonian. In the case of the ex-colleage's mother: Macedonian. Her blood or ancestry was not, and according to me that is irrelevant. She choses (probably) based upon her background in Macedonia to identify with them. I dismiss the argument 'blood' for describing what you are and this is actually what happens all around the world. Those who do this are practicing nazi theories and that includes most of you here bashing Greeks for having mixed with other peoples over the last 3000 years. I find it ridiculous. No country can claim this in Europe apart fdrom the Islanders maybe being so isolated.
As I asked you before, I would really like to hear serious reactions from all of you what it is that makes you Macedonian. Please do not answer that back with a question, I believe this forum in the short time that it exists has spent more then enough topics on the subject of Greeks.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This particular part of the forum is for Exposing Lies and Propaganda, so don't be suprised in you see quite a few topics about Greeks.

[sydney]

and a greek i know is from kefalonia, he speaks greek, he says "i'm greek", people call him greek. so what's my point? deeper in conversation he'll tell you his ancestors are italian. and even deeper he'll tell you he doesn't really feel that greek, he feels different because the way he was treated inside greece.

so, you're right, things aren't what they seem, or as you say, black and white. but if they were, we would be the white ones (and that's obvious).

and what makes us macedonian? answer: that's all we know ... you should ask my great-great-great-great grandfathers for your answer.

[Giorikas]

and a greek i know is from kefalonia, he speaks greek, he says "i'm greek", people call him greek. so what's my point? deeper in conversation he'll tell you his ancestors are italian. and even deeper he'll tell you he doesn't really feel that greek, he feels different because the way he was treated inside greece.

so, you're right, things aren't what they seem, or as you say, black and white. but if they were, we would be the white ones (and that's obvious).

and what makes us macedonian? answer: that's all we know ... you should ask my great-great-great-great grandfathers for your answer.

Thanks, so that makes the Grekoman who speaks only Greek and knows no better then he is also per definition Greek. That is his reference, and myself I would not find that incorrect. Like your reference is that you are Macedonian.

[sydney]

spot on. i only pity the grkomani, i do not seek to claim them, they are greek in the modern sense of the word.

[Giorikas]

spot on. i only pity the grkomani, i do not seek to claim them, they are greek in the modern sense of the word.

We made progress today my friend