The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Giorikas]

I quoted you. Now tell your quote to your government, and wait for an answer

Well, depite what every else thinks here, Greece doesn't have police department checking on people what they should feel, you overestimate their efficiency a bit

[Pelister]

Well, depite what every else thinks here, Greece doesn't have police department checking on people what they should feel, you overestimate their efficiency a bit

You write that changing nationalities and identities happens all the time in the balkans.

Nothing could be further from the truth, unless of course, you come from Modern Greece.

The Serbs were always Serbs, the Macedonians were always Macedonians ...

The Modern Greeks, on the other hand, are very, very mixed ... Turks as Greeks, Albanians as Greeks, Vlachs as Greeks, and now Macedonians as Greeks, as so it goes on ... it follows a pattern of the expansion of Modern Greece into new territories that in modern terms were never Greek.

[Giorikas]

Can you highlight similar "happenings" in the Balkans outside of Greece?

The US melting pot for starters. First generation immigrants speak their native language, later they start developing accents, the next generation speaks the native language even less, and are already about to 'flip' to the otherside, meaning to become mainsteam ' gringo's ' (No I don't live in a Spanish speaking country). Why are you asking the obvious?

It's not a question of pressure, many kids just don't want to be different then their friends at school. It's natural.
I have met on Facebook Poker a Greek woman from Turkey. We were chatting in Greek when the other players were strangers. As soon as her Turkish friends joined the pokertable she directly changed to English with me. Apparently she wasn't comfortable with speaking/chatting to me in Greek in front of her friends (and this was a grown up). It doesn't automatically mean that Turkish society/government is imposing these restrictions on her, it was probably her own problem and to blame Turkish society for that is too easy.

As opposite example, I when I was in Turkey for work and stayed over in Istanbul in the weekend, I went to church and saw a loccal Greek lady with her grandchildren and heard her speaking Greek. It made me feel very proud and good that they preserve their heritage.

Myself, when I was young, I didn't like it to speak or to be spoken to in public in anything else then the local language. That changed fortunately but I can understand that logic. I guess most us of can relate to that.

Going back to your problems:

It might be an idea to play another record. I am sure that (especially in the past) being anything else then mainstream Greek would have had it's uncomfortable side to an extent in Greece. I also believe that the Greek government(s) did not handle minorities well (we know that for a fact when it comes to the Turkish/Moslim minorities in the East) but I read a lot of things blown way out of proportion. One keeps repeating the other and the end of the story is that minorities are being nazi-style persecuted and tortured in Greece. Ridiculous.

[Giorikas]

You write that changing nationalities and identities happens all the time in the balkans.

Nothing could be further from the truth, unless of course, you come from Modern Greece.

The Serbs were always Serbs, the Macedonians were always Macedonians ...

The Modern Greeks, on the other hand, are very, very mixed ... Turks as Greeks, Albanians as Greeks, Vlachs as Greeks, and now Macedonians as Greeks, as so it goes on ... it follows a pattern of the expansion of Modern Greece into new territories that in modern terms were never Greek.

Ah here we go again. Keep on living in denial thinking that Greeks are a complete mix and you guys are pure, plain and simple Macedonians. I am comfortable enough with what I am and what Greeks are to laugh about that.
I will not not discuss it further with you since that would probably lead to me being banned.
However, I would appreciate it is you could extend the same courtacy to me as I have to you and that is that you accept Greeks as they are and as they want to be referred to. Whatever you believe is your business. Keep your nazi style 'ethnicity by blood' rethorics for yourself and as I said keep on dreaming of your Greek mix theories, nobody else has inter mingled, and especially not the etnically clean blooded Macedonians who have wonderfully kept their Blut clean from anybody else's and descend directly from the ancient Macedonians. Keep playing that record hombre don't expect me to listen to that crap.

[Risto the Great]

The US melting pot for starters. First generation immigrants speak their native language, later they start developing accents, the next generation speaks the native language even less, and are already about to 'flip' to the otherside, meaning to become mainsteam ' gringo's ' (No I don't live in a Spanish speaking country). Why are you asking the obvious?

It's not a question of pressure, many kids just don't want to be different then their friends at school. It's natural.
I have met on Facebook Poker a Greek woman from Turkey. We were chatting in Greek when the other players were strangers. As soon as her Turkish friends joined the pokertable she directly changed to English with me. Apparently she wasn't comfortable with speaking/chatting to me in Greek in front of her friends (and this was a grown up). It doesn't automatically mean that Turkish society/government is imposing these restrictions on her, it was probably her own problem and to blame Turkish society for that is too easy.

As opposite example, I when I was in Turkey for work and stayed over in Istanbul in the weekend, I went to church and saw a loccal Greek lady with her grandchildren and heard her speaking Greek. It made me feel very proud and good that they preserve their heritage.

Myself, when I was young, I didn't like it to speak or to be spoken to in public in anything else then the local language. That changed fortunately but I can understand that logic. I guess most us of can relate to that.

Going back to your problems:

It might be an idea to play another record. I am sure that (especially in the past) being anything else then mainstream Greek would have had it's uncomfortable side to an extent in Greece. I also believe that the Greek government(s) did not handle minorities well (we know that for a fact when it comes to the Turkish/Moslim minorities in the East) but I read a lot of things blown way out of proportion. One keeps repeating the other and the end of the story is that minorities are being nazi-style persecuted and tortured in Greece. Ridiculous.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant In the Balkans ... but outside of Greece. Like a kid who calls himself Croatian but has parents who self-identify as Serbians.

You seem distracted, you did not really deal with my issue very well. And then proceeded to tell me about the Turkish/Muslim minorities who had a hard time but not as bad as everyone makes out (Don't you know about the Macedonian persecution as well?). Whilst being completely irrelevant to my line of questioning, it does indicate you really want to say something here and it really does not align itself with the wonderful introduction you made for yourself.

I fear my friend Osiris was right and I was mistakenly sticking up for you. You see, most Greeks who introduce themselves with the loftiest of ideals usually reduce to the lowest denominator of scum over time. I realise they are harsh words, but I would rather someone comes here and is honest. Someone like Fatso comes here and blatantly tells us much to my utter discontent that he disagrees with the ancient Macedonian identity from our perspective. Nevertheless, he is human enough to see that we exist as a modern people and offers support to the much abused Macedonian race. That shows character.

You are here for a Spanish lesson and some other agenda it would appear.

But, I will let you prove that for yourself.

[Giorikas]

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant In the Balkans ... but outside of Greece. Like a kid who calls himself Croatian but has parents who self-identify as Serbians.

You seem distracted, you did not really deal with my issue very well. And then proceeded to tell me about the Turkish/Muslim minorities who had a hard time but not as bad as everyone makes out (Don't you know about the Macedonian persecution as well?). Whilst being completely irrelevant to my line of questioning, it does indicate you really want to say something here and it really does not align itself with the wonderful introduction you made for yourself.

I fear my friend Osiris was right and I was mistakenly sticking up for you. You see, most Greeks who introduce themselves with the loftiest of ideals usually reduce to the lowest denominator of scum over time. I realise they are harsh words, but I would rather someone comes here and is honest. Someone like Fatso comes here and blatantly tells us much to my utter discontent that he disagrees with the ancient Macedonian identity from our perspective. Nevertheless, he is human enough to see that we exist as a modern people and offers support to the much abused Macedonian race. That shows character.

You are here for a Spanish lesson and some other agenda it would appear.

But, I will let you prove that for yourself.

Well Risto, you seem to be much respected here but please don't lecture me with this 'distracted' stuff. I misread your question. Big deal. I gave you one example outside of Greece or Macedonia with this ex colleage. I gave you a few examples in Turkey. Others mention these Grkoman, Serboman, Bulgaroman theories (I hate these expressions as if these people are considered like some sort of halfbreed traiters) saying more or less the same thing. I added an example of the US and you want yet another.
I believe you are trying to make a point here, so say what's on your mind. My statements are not controversial or very much disputed. We can see it all around us regardless of nationality and regardless where those persons live.

Please be a bit more selective in your lectures as I have seen already a fair bit of unrelated (to the topics) nazi crap here from others with no relation to the original subjects whatsoever. I guess that this must be the 'Macedonians will always get he benefit of the doubt' - part of the Risto show you were talking about.
Rest assured that this respect you get from others presumably based upon hanging out for centuries behind your PC serving the cause does not mean you will get mine automatically. My anarchistic side always has a problem with self proclaimed experts acting like prosecutor, judge and jury such as yourself.
What I wrote hardly disqualifies my point and by the way I don't know any Serbians or Croatians. Wouldn't have a problem telling you that straight away too. It is clear that there are many Balkan examples.

Take Tito who was mixed Craotian Slovenian but preferred to be Yugoslavian instead. Take Bregovic who is Serbian Croatian from Sarajevo considering himself to be Yugoslavian. Take Ataturk who must surely 'by blood' have a fair bit of Slavic blood in him the way he looks but he or his forefathers chose to be Turkish.

Anyway, you were indeed not attacking me nor impolite and you welcomed me. I had no problem with that or with you. Fair enough, but that's not really the same as sticking up for me is it? Could it be that you've been too long hanging around these sites? Your reactions are really a bit over the top.

Make no mistake, I am all for a dialogue and have never said differently. Dialogue means 2 opinions in stead of having a monologue with everybody repeating the same over and over again (for years) reposting documents that have long been discussed before. I thought that that was clear and that regardless of that you still welcomed me.

I have had to follow your rules to be admitted and I did so and that is not something difficult for me.
But make no mistake. I have never compromised on anything I believed in, never said I would or should, and as far as I know it is not a pre-condition to be here. You don't even know where I stand since we hardly started discussing about that.

In fact you will read that in another message where I said that I disagree with the way Greek forums are run, but not necessarily with all they say. That I have never discussed about the probability that you descend from ancient Macedonians doesn't mean I believe in that. You seem really confused Risto. Please tell me where I said any differently.

And before boasting how you managed to lure me into making a confession with your years of experience exposing Grekomani etc, note that I had alread written before that as a whole I disagree with the pure blooded ancient Macedonian theories that most of you seem to adhere to.

Hasta la vista,

How's that for some Spanish hombre?

[Risto the Great]

I offered Fatso as an example of someone with a differing ideology but neverthless a respectable demeanour. I stuck up for you when Osiris made assumptions about you and offered you the benefit of the doubt. But you know what ... you are right, "I see Greek people" ... when they come across extra nice .... like you ... they have even more to hide. But we are here to explore each others perspectives.

You now cite mixed marriages as an example of why people in the Balkans "change" ethnicities. Fine ... irrelevant ... but fine. Keep going, you are fun.

[El Bre]

Make no mistake, I am all for a dialogue

Is this dialogue gonna start anytime soon, or can I go and get some popcorn?

[Delodephius]

U u... get one for me too. And don't forget the butter.

[Giorikas]

I offered Fatso as an example of someone with a differing ideology but neverthless a respectable demeanour. I stuck up for you when Osiris made assumptions about you and offered you the benefit of the doubt. But you know what ... you are right, "I see Greek people" ... when they come across extra nice .... like you ... they have even more to hide. But we are here to explore each others perspectives.

You now cite mixed marriages as an example of why people in the Balkans "change" ethnicities. Fine ... irrelevant ... but fine. Keep going, you are fun.

Risto, are you pulling my leg here? I read nothing else then stories about Grekomani, Bulgaromani, Serbomani. Now these are examples that you keep talking about. Point taken, mixed marriages should not be considered valid examples but still...
There are Bulgarians of Greek origin that got stuck on the other side of the border when they were drawn, there are Bulgarian that were stuck on the Greek side and so on.
Some will have kept their identity, some not. The ones that lost their identity either didn't care, or were more comfortable going into the into the big melting pot, others felt unwelcome and kept a low profile to eventually mingle in. This is something we see all over the place, in the Balkans, or outside the Balkans. Do you dispute it?

Moving on: So tell me oh Great Risto, see-er of Greeks. What is it what I have to hide ? I maintain what I said about having this place moderated and I honestly believe what I said. Being nice or not and believing what I believe are not related. I am sure that by default you will find me nicer if I buy the gospel you are spreading.

Let's face it, it's not like I have an agenda blowing up a website with years of experience converting the ignorant neutral reader into supporters for your cause. In fact has there been any registered conversion of a neutral reader for your cause, somebody not from the Balkans? Never mind though, we can forget about my suggestion. (it was merely that, a suggestion)

So tell me what my agenda is, keepin in mind that I had already expressed before you 'saw' me that I don't buy the story that you are the only unmixed people of the Balkans going straight back to the classical Macedonians. Is that so bad anyway, that I don't buy it? Anyway, I am not a disciple to the gospel and I have read many different stories by Macedonian on that subject, all with different explanations of what Macedonians are and where they came from. That doesn't help.
There seems to be more consensus from Macedonian side on Grekomani, Bulgaromani, Srbomani, the origins of Greeks, the origins of Bulgarians

[Delodephius]

Another advise if you will: never write long posts. Up to ten lines. Write them if you REALLY have to, but so far I have not seen the need to.

[Giorikas]

Another advise if you will: never write long posts. Up to ten lines. Write them if you REALLY have to, but so far I have not seen the need to.

Yeah, these oneliners seem to work really well here. Thanks

[Delodephius]

Long posts show insecurity and hiding behind words.

[El Bre]

So tell me what my agenda is, keepin in mind that I had already expressed before you 'saw' me that I don't buy the story that you are the only unmixed people of the Balkans going straight back to the classical Macedonians.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=86

[Risto the Great]

Risto, are you pulling my leg here? I read nothing else then stories about Grekomani, Bulgaromani, Serbomani. Now these are examples that you keep talking about. Point taken, mixed marriages should not be considered valid examples but still...
There are Bulgarians of Greek origin that got stuck on the other side of the border when they were drawn, there are Bulgarian that were stuck on the Greek side and so on.
Some will have kept their identity, some not. The ones that lost their identity either didn't care, or were more comfortable going into the into the big melting pot, others felt unwelcome and kept a low profile to eventually mingle in. This is something we see all over the place, in the Balkans, or outside the Balkans. Do you dispute it?

Moving on: So tell me oh Great Risto, see-er of Greeks. What is it what I have to hide ? I maintain what I said about having this place moderated and I honestly believe what I said. Being nice or not and believing what I believe are not related. I am sure that by default you will find me nicer if I buy the gospel you are spreading.

I see you still referred to Greeks and some other ethnicity near borders.
I asked about other examples in the Balkans EXCLUDING Greeks.
You have failed to cite one example other than mixed marriages which you now agree was a silly idea.

So, perhaps it is a problem with Greeks exclusively in the Balkans. I think my point is now very clear. The rest is fluff.

I have stated the term Grkoman once (oops twice now) on this forum. I have said Greek many more times. Why on earth do you enjoy the idea of painting us a bad Macedonians who disrespect the Greeks? That is the picture you seek to weave out with your many sentences. Macedonians have a very little request from Greeks, they be acknowledged for their Macedonian identity. Is that too hard for a reasonable person like you?