Modern Greece 1st constitution, a "Greek" is a Christian, 1827!

[Soldier of Macedon]

.........The Greek state was a new phenomena. Up to the time Greece came into existance as state, they had no state to identify with.........

The Greek state was already approx 100 years old (not exactly brand new) and by origin defined a 'Greek' as any Christian that lived or settled within the borders of Greece. THAT WAS THE ONLY CRITERIA FOR BEING GREEK IN GREECE. The state they (Asians) came to identify with used the Christian faith to rope in the numbers for its population, hence, automatically, all of them became 'Greeks' overnight. These are the cold hard facts. How can anybody label with any credibility your broad claims and assumptions on what these people from another continent felt like (ethnically, if at all) 80 years ago? I asked you to show me the evidence and/or proof of these people with their "ethnic Hellenic" character and "native Greek" linguistic origins, contemporary, I am asking you again, can you back up your claims in respect to these Asians?

Armenians did the same thing when it came to their ways of identifying themselves. Are you telling me that 'ethnic' Greeks and Armenians are the same now?

Armenians are a completely different story, they in fact had more than one millet in which their population was distributed, unlike the Roman (Greek) millet that had several different ethnicities among its adherents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_millet

Until the 19th century (Reformation Era) beside the Muslim millet, the main millets were the Greek Orthodox, Jewish, Armenian and Syrian Orthodox.[3] Armenians formed more than one (actually three) millets under the Ottoman rule.[4] A wide array of other groups such as Catholics, Karaites and Samaritans were also represented.

Even though it was named after Greek subjects of the Ottoman Empire, all Orthodox Christians were included in the millet-i Rûm. Therefore, Orthodox Greeks, Bulgarians, Arabs, Albanians, Vlachs, Romanians and Serbs were all considered part of the same millet despite their differences in ethnicity and language and despite the fact that the religious hierarchy was Greek dominated.

Giorikas, a few questions for you, a) how many Asians (1920's refugees) were there in total by your estimate, b) can you give us a break down of who and how many ethnic and/or linguistic groups, and c) the percentage of each of these ethnic and/or linguistic groups.

The map Terra Nova showed -if you accept that as evidence- proves what I said.

It proves nothing.

No Turkish would write Turkish in Greek script. In fact, most Turkish in those days did not write, and if they did they would write in the Arabic script. No Turk would change his religion to become Christian. That would not make any sense at all.

The people of the Roman millet, regardless of the diverse linguistic groups, had the Greek language as official in churches and schools due to the 'special' friendship held by Greek-speaking nobles and priests and their Turkish buddies. As a result of this, there are Macedonian, Albanian and Vlach literary works created during the Ottoman Empire which are written in the Greek script, employing the native languages. There are several possible scenarios of how a Turkish-speaking Anatolian native of the Christian faith could have evolved into being, the (unlikely) event of a Muslim converting to Christianity cannot be completed overlooked, but more likely is the intense interaction of the ruling people of the Ottoman Empire with native Anatolians such as Armenians, Arabs, Persians, etc in which the actual 'ethnic' Greeks play an insignificant role, evidenced in the ease with which the Greek language was, unlike the rest (Armenian, Arab, Persian), permanently humbled down to insignificance in Asia.

To put it differently, we lost in Turkey, and we won in the Northern province. We took our people home.

You accepted in excess of 1.5 million (give or take) Christians from Asia and wrapped them up in a pre-prepared 'Hellenic' identity. You did not take 'your people', you accepted fleeing Christians for the (later) reward of expelling several hundred thousands of Muslims from Greece.

That you can not accept that they are Greek is really your problem.

I accept that these Asians are 'Greek' only as defined in the first constitution of the modern Greek state (Any Christian that lives or settles in Greece is Greek). DO YOU?

[TerraNova]

I accept that these Asians are 'Greek' only as defined in the first constitution of the modern Greek state (Any Christian that lives or settles in Greece is Greek). DO YOU?

I really cannot understand your problem.

Let's clarify this first-how would you define a Greek?(or a Bulgarian,Macedonian etc)

By his Language?
His ethnic consiousness?
By DNA test?

[Giorikas]

The Greek state was already approx 100 years old (not exactly brand new) and by origin defined a 'Greek' as any Christian that lived or settled within the borders of Greece. THAT WAS THE ONLY CRITERIA FOR BEING GREEK IN GREECE. The state they (Asians) came to identify with used the Christian faith to rope in the numbers for its population, hence, automatically, all of them became 'Greeks' overnight. These are the cold hard facts. How can anybody label with any credibility your broad claims and assumptions on what these people from another continent felt like (ethnically, if at all) 80 years ago? I asked you to show me the evidence and/or proof of these people with their "ethnic Hellenic" character and "native Greek" linguistic origins, contemporary, I am asking you again, can you back up your claims in respect to these Asians?

Armenians are a completely different story, they in fact had more than one millet in which their population was distributed, unlike the Roman (Greek) millet that had several different ethnicities among its adherents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_millet

Giorikas, a few questions for you, a) how many Asians (1920's refugees) were there in total by your estimate, b) can you give us a break down of who and how many ethnic and/or linguistic groups, and c) the percentage of each of these ethnic and/or linguistic groups.

It proves nothing.

The people of the Roman millet, regardless of the diverse linguistic groups, had the Greek language as official in churches and schools due to the 'special' friendship held by Greek-speaking nobles and priests and their Turkish buddies. As a result of this, there are Macedonian, Albanian and Vlach literary works created during the Ottoman Empire which are written in the Greek script, employing the native languages. There are several possible scenarios of how a Turkish-speaking Anatolian native of the Christian faith could have evolved into being, the (unlikely) event of a Muslim converting to Christianity cannot be completed overlooked, but more likely is the intense interaction of the ruling people of the Ottoman Empire with native Anatolians such as Armenians, Arabs, Persians, etc in which the actual 'ethnic' Greeks play an insignificant role, evidenced in the ease with which the Greek language was, unlike the rest (Armenian, Arab, Persian), permanently humbled down to insignificance in Asia.

You accepted in excess of 1.5 million (give or take) Christians from Asia and wrapped them up in a pre-prepared 'Hellenic' identity. You did not take 'your people', you accepted fleeing Christians for the (later) reward of expelling several hundred thousands of Muslims from Greece.

I accept that these Asians are 'Greek' only as defined in the first constitution of the modern Greek state (Any Christian that lives or settles in Greece is Greek). DO YOU?

Well Soldier of Macedon, even if I appreciate your contributions more then of some others, you are behaving the same in this respect. Some of the things you say are true, but then you proceed by blowing it way out proportion.

- First of all, the Greek state was a relative new phenomenon. Established and validated throught he London protocol 1832, there was not yet a Greece to the extent we know it (even disregarding the Dodecanese Islands that were added in 1947). The Greek state was struggling, engaged in wars, extending their territories, and losing some others depending on the treaty.

- There were even more Millets. There was the Rum, Jewish, Armenian(s), Catholic, Karaites, Samaritans, Chaldean Catholic, Church of the East.
In this case we are talking about the Greeks of Minor Asia. The RUM millet indeed included non Greeks such as Slavs and Orthodox Albanians. The others were 'covered' by the other millets. We know that around 1800 the Ottomans expelled the Albanians from Minor Asia, Christian and Muslims alike, (think about the Ali Pasha advantures who got killed in 1822) so I wonder which of the non Greeks really slipped through, passing at Greeks ... You tell me. I have no idea, but there must be examples here or there. Exceptions proving the rule.

So I maintain that the number of 1,5 Million refugees seems pretty much accepted by most independant sources, of which some fled to the USSR, some were channeled through to US directly, and many to Greece, of which the majority to Greek Macedonia. I see no reason to doubt in the slightest that they were Greek, even if we know that a number which I estimate bigger then the current population of non Greek Macedonians in Greece, spoke Turkish, wrote in Greek.

In any case, let's say you seem to convince the world that that was not the case, then surely, as a people who holds the right of self identification in high regard should respect their wishes to be recognised as Greeks. Unless you will tell me now that they wished to identify themselves as something else .... They were Greek because they were considered to be Greeks by Turkish, by the neutral observers, by their fellow Greeks, and last but not least, they did so themselves. (even if the idea of nationality was something new for most who inhabited the Ottoman empire).

[Soldier of Macedon]

I really cannot understand your problem.

Let's clarify this first-how would you define a Greek?(or a Bulgarian,Macedonian etc)

By his Language?
His ethnic consiousness?
By DNA test?

You, asking me, how I would define you as a Greek is a little comical given that I have already explained what I believe a modern 'Greek' to be. Do I need to repeat it in all of my posts? Do I need to remind you that your ancestors, BY THEIR OWN STATEMENT IN THE FIRST GREEK CONSTITUTION, define a 'Greek' as basically anybody (regardless of origins) who is Christian and lives or settles in Greece? Anybody! Are you going against what your ancestors said in the first document of your state and existence as an official nation?

Macedonians do not define themselves in such broad terms as the Greeks do, which basically allows for ANYBODY to become a 'Greek' and hence imaginary 'descendant' of the ancient Hellenes. Macedonians define themselves by way of common language and dialects shared throughout centuries, culture and customs, geography and identity. Of course others who live in Macedonia are also Macedonians geographically and/or by way of citizenship, but ethnically and linguistically they are something else, be it Vlach, Roma, Albanian, Turk, etc, which is OK and respected in the Republic of Macedonia - Unlike the paranoid state to the south (GR). Most of the Macedonians today have ancestors that spoke the same native language several generations ago - Again unlike the paranoid state to the south (GR).

[Soldier of Macedon]

First of all, the Greek state was a relative new phenomenon.

It already had almost a century of statehood, plenty of time to refine propagandist activity.

In this case we are talking about the Greeks of Minor Asia. The RUM millet indeed included non Greeks such as Slavs and Orthodox Albanians.

The Roman millet was more generic while at the same time broad, and as the most important of the Christian millets it included several more ethno-linguistic groups than just Slavs, Albanians and Greeks. There are Christian Turkish, Armenian, Persian, Arab speaking people among others, while ethnicities are even more diverse, including the several and various native Anatolian peoples.

I see no reason to doubt in the slightest that they were Greek..........

That's because you don't allow for your eyes to open and see the truth. Tell me, at what stage during the 1920's did the Turkish-speaking contingent arrive, and what were their numbers? I would like an answer to these questions if you will.

In any case, let's say you seem to convince the world that that was not the case, then surely, as a people who holds the right of self identification in high regard should respect their wishes to be recognised as Greeks.

Giorikas, none of this would be discussed if the Greek state was not on a propagandist crusade aimed against the Macedonian identity. We already recognize your right to identify as 'Greeks', it is your side that has the problem, and you know this to be a fact.

[TerraNova]

You, asking me, how I would define you as a Greek is a little comical given that I have already explained what I believe a modern 'Greek' to be. Do I need to repeat it in all of my posts? Do I need to remind you that your ancestors, BY THEIR OWN STATEMENT IN THE FIRST GREEK CONSTITUTION, define a 'Greek' as basically anybody (regardless of origins) who is Christian and lives or settles in Greece? Anybody! Are you going against what your ancestors said in the first document of your state and existence as an official nation?

I really wonder abt this surprise about the "Great discovery" you think the Greek constitution of 1820's is!!
Constitution is a law-the basic law of the state.
Therefore Greek was the Greek citizen of course,the inhabitant of the liberated land-the only notable thing is that there is distinction/restriction in terms of religion.

The constitution is NOT a test of ethnicity!
It's not the text to define ethnicity but citizenship!

Have you read the French Constitutions after the French Revolution?

Macedonians define themselves by way of common language and dialects shared throughout centuries, culture and customs, geography and identity. Of course others who live in Macedonia are also Macedonians geographically and/or by way of citizenship, but ethnically and linguistically they are something else, be it Vlach, Roma, Albanian, Turk, etc, which is OK and respected in the Republic of Macedonia - Unlike the paranoid state to the south (GR). Most of the Macedonians today have ancestors that spoke the same native language several generations ago - Again unlike the paranoid state to the south (GR).

Same native language?
Let me go further..what is a language and what a dialect?
Is Bosnian and Serbian different languages?
About Macedonia...why kostur,lerin dialects as well as dialects spoken in Pirin or were spoken in the past in Serres and Drama belong to the same language?
Sofia's dialects are closer,quiet the same with those in Eastern Greek regions...
So what's the same language you propose?The one that was "serbianized" and transformed in 1945?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I really wonder abt this surprise about the "Great discovery" you think the Greek constitution of 1820's is!!
Constitution is a law-the basic law of the state.
Therefore Greek was the Greek citizen of course,the inhabitant of the liberated land-the only notable thing is that there is distinction/restriction in terms of religion.

The constitution is NOT a test of ethnicity!
It's not the text to define ethnicity but citizenship!

Have you read the French Constitutions after the French Revolution?

The text defines any Christian living or settled in Greece as a 'Greek' as a matter of course. Where are the ethnic Greeks among these 'Greeks'? Vlakoyanni seems to indicate that 97-8% of the population is 'Greek', how else but ethnically would you think she would be making reference?

Same native language?
Let me go further..what is a language and what a dialect?
Is Bosnian and Serbian different languages?
About Macedonia...why kostur,lerin dialects as well as dialects spoken in Pirin or were spoken in the past in Serres and Drama belong to the same language?
Sofia's dialects are closer,quiet the same with those in Eastern Greek regions...
So what's the same language you propose?The one that was "serbianized" and transformed in 1945?

Look here mate, I will put it down to your sheer and senseless stupidity and lack of knowledge that you would make such a statement upon conclusion of that worthless dribble. Macedonian was standardized, not "serbianized" or "transformed", if you don't know the truth about the language then get your facts in order prior to the next time you wish to speak on the subject. Blatant lies like the one you just stated will not be tolerated here. The Macedonian dialects share a unique relation with each other, distinct from the other Balkan Slavs, don't repeat that brainless propaganda that you were taught as a child here, it has no place.

The Greeks, unlike the Macedonians, looked to words from 2,000 years ago to substitute all of the foreign words in their language, and in the end, they still chose to stick with the now demented but still recognizable Demotiki. I would speak too quick about others when your people couldn't get it right until the 1970's.

[TerraNova]

The text defines any Christian living or settled in Greece as a 'Greek' as a matter of course.

CONSTITUTIONS DO NOT DEFINE ETHNICITY ,BUT CITIZENSHIP.
Cut and clear.

Look here mate, I will put it down to your sheer and senseless stupidity and lack of knowledge that you would make such a statement upon conclusion of that worthless dribble. Macedonian was standardized, not "serbianized" or "transformed", if you don't know the truth about the language then get your facts in order prior to the next time you wish to speak on the subject. Blatant lies like the one you just stated will not be tolerated here. The Macedonian dialects share a unique relation with each other, distinct from the other Balkan Slavs, don't repeat that brainless propaganda that you were taught as a child here, it has no place.
.

So...can you point me out the clear line which separates Macedonian from Bulgarian dialects? (plz dont show me UnitedMacedoniaMap!)

[Jankovska]

CONSTITUTIONS DO NOT DEFINE ETHNICITY ,BUT CITIZENSHIP.
Cut and clear.



So...can you point me out the clear line which separates Macedonian from Bulgarian dialects? (plz dont show me UnitedMacedoniaMap!)

Celuni me otzad- Bulgarian

Bakni me u gaz- Macedonian

[TerraNova]

I found this.Is it right or wrong?

[Pelister]

CONSTITUTIONS DO NOT DEFINE ETHNICITY ,BUT CITIZENSHIP.
Cut and clear.



So...can you point me out the clear line which separates Macedonian from Bulgarian dialects? (plz dont show me UnitedMacedoniaMap!)

What if a requirement of citizenship is to be a "Greek by genus" ??

I would say that ethnicity has everything to do with it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

CONSTITUTIONS DO NOT DEFINE ETHNICITY ,BUT CITIZENSHIP.

Wrong, the modern Greek state at the time of conjure defines the nation by anybody who is a Christian and settles or lives in Greece. Anybody. The modern Greek state now equates this open approach towards the nation with national homogenity by way of a 97-8% 'Greek' majority. The whole scenario is riddled with half-truths, lies and idiots.

By the way, according to your map the people around Ohrid speak more similar to the people in Burgas rather than Bitola I advise you to wake up and stop making a fool out of yourself.

[TerraNova]

Wrong, the modern Greek state at the time of conjure defines the nation by anybody who is a Christian and settles or lives in Greece. Anybody. The modern Greek state now equates this open approach towards the nation with national homogenity by way of a 97-8% 'Greek' majority. The whole scenario is riddled with half-truths, lies and idiots.

By the way, according to your map the people around Ohrid speak more similar to the people in Burgas rather than Bitola I advise you to wake up and stop making a fool out of yourself.

SoM aren't you bored of yourself ...quoting yourself?

If you cannot understand that a Constitution is law,and law is not biology...then i cannot help you.

As about the map-it's not mine-i asked you which dialects are considered Bulgarian and which Macedonian,and if there is a distinct line that separates them...and where it passes from?
If you don't know,you don't have to answer to everything making silly remarks.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I do know, evidently, you don't, so to save yourself from being further perceived as a simpleton, just drop it and tackle something you can at least comprehend to an elementary level.

As for your constitution, I know exactly what it means. ANYBODY WHO IS A CHRISTIAN AND LIVES OR SETTLES IN GREECE IS A GREEK.

Long live the glorious descendants of the hellenes.......

[Lügendetektor]

Old thread...but indeed a good one

couple days ago i found an interesting site, on german language, on which several constitution of the europeans states are shown....

http://www.verfassungen.eu/griech/verf22-index.htm

this constitution of greece is also a content of the site

but what indeed is interesting, is the foot note, a part of it you can see as my signature...which will link you directly to that webpage

so, lets see....

Die jüngere Geschichte Griechenlands begann am 11. Februar 1821; an diesem Tage begann der Aufstand der "Griechen" im Osmanischen Reiche, insbesondere in der Walachei, der Moldau, (beide heute zu Rumänien gehörig) auf dem Peleponnes und in Morea. Unter der Bezeichnung "Griechen" verstand man zur damaligen Zeit alle griechisch-orthodoxen Untertanen des osmanischen Sultans.

translation with (a little) help by promt translator http://www.online-translator.com

The younger history of Greece began on 11th of February, 1821; on this day began the uprising of the "Greeks" in the Osman empire, in particular in the Walachia, Moldavia, (both today in Romania severely) on the Peleponnes and in Morea. At the time the term "Greek" meant all Greek-orthodox subjects of the Osman sultan.


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