Greek lies on the izmir fire are beyond the pale of human decency

[Spartan]

So, now you ask for a backup from other forum users to deal with my posts? Only because of your own incompetence.

I ask for nothing.
Go back and edit some more posts after Ive proven you wrong
malaka

you demand to form internet forum crusade against the Turk,

Where did you read that?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do these rules mr admin SoM include calling members "pathetic swine"?

Are you now trying to manipulate what I said, Coastal? The 'pathetic swine' comment was in reference to Greek racists, as can be clearly seen in the sentence which I wrote. Are you a Greek racist? If so, consider yourself labelled as a 'pathetic swine'. If not, don't waste my time with your irrelevance about people apparently 'losing' their temper with you.

In your rant, you missed answering a question. Why on earth would Greek priests be blessing Muslim cannons as they fired into Macedonian Christian villages? Can you answer it?

As for writing "your" people when referring to Macedonians while making clear reference to 'Greeks' and 'Turks' in the same sentence, I have already advised you. Do as you will now.

[Coastal]

In your rant, you missed answering a question. Why on earth would Greek priests be blessing Muslim cannons as they fired into Macedonian Christian villages? Can you answer it?

What is your objection here? Komitajis also were slaughtering Greek priests. The 4th crusade instead of attacking Muslims,sacked Constantinople... well i m not religious,and i can understand in cold blood that religion does not always serve her God.
Why on the other hand Pavlos Melas was betrayed by christians (Bulgarians or local Macedonians) to the Turks?
It was a conflict between Greeks and Bulgarians - You sided with the later. (except your beloved Grecomani )
I m sorry but you have chosen the wrong side..and you lost.
Maybe God listened the Greek priests' blessings :P

As for writing "your" people when referring to Macedonians while making clear reference to 'Greeks' and 'Turks' in the same sentence, I have already advised you. Do as you will now.

I ve already answered on this-maybe you missed it.

[Bratot]

If you are refering to the spies of Turks dressed like a Greek preists than I can't blame our guys for killing them, after several times they made alliance witht he Turks where later whole Macedonian villages were burned.

[Coastal]

If you are refering to the spies of Turks dressed like a Greek preists than I can't blame our guys for killing them, after several times they made alliance witht he Turks where later whole Macedonian villages were burned.

No,Bratot i am not talking about spies dressed like Greek priests...

for example father Anastasis Christou.
He was born in 1821,in Skopia/Nevoleni (Florina district).
Father's side from Konoplati,Northern Epirus,mother's from Nevoleni/Skopia.
Studied Theology in Istanbul.At the age of 40 he became a priest,and contributed in building the school of the village.
He permormed the liturgy in Greek,and he had a Greek ethnic consioussness.
On the 19th of August 1906 , he was shot by a Komitaji (Consulate of Monastery-script 832 ,11/12/1906)

Father Kostas Stamboulis ,also served in Nevoleni/Skopia .He was murdered by the Exarchate Komitajis in 18 of February 1905.
In front of the door of Ag.Paraskevi church.

They were both priests,and they were both murdered because they were Patriarchists and served in Greek.

[Bratot]

No,Bratot i am not talking about spies dressed like Greek priests...

for example father Anastasis Christou.
He was born in 1821,in Skopia/Nevoleni (Florina district).
Father's side from Konoplati,Northern Epirus,mother's from Nevoleni/Skopia.
Studied Theology in Istanbul.At the age of 40 he became a priest,and contributed in building the school of the village.
He permormed the liturgy in Greek,and he had a Greek ethnic consioussness.
On the 19th of August 1906 , he was shot by a Komitaji (Consulate of Monastery-script 832 ,11/12/1906)

Father Kostas Stamboulis ,also served in Nevoleni/Skopia .He was murdered by the Exarchate Komitajis in 18 of February 1905.
In front of the door of Ag.Paraskevi church.

They were both priests,and they were both murdered because they were Patriarchists and served in Greek.

I don't see any evidence of your claims nor a confirmation of the murderer.

When talking about Greek church I always think of Germanos Karavangelis who allied with the turkish bands against the Macedonians.

Why don't you show us the script?

[Coastal]

I don't see any evidence of your claims nor a confirmation of the murderer.

When talking about Greek church I always think of Germanos Karavangelis who allied with the turkish bands against the Macedonians.

Why don't you show us the script?

I gave you the exact source. It's there for furher research.
There aren't videos of the assassination ,but you can see the graves of the poor priests if you visit Skopia.

[Bratot]

How "it's there" for further research?

According to the script from Austrian consulate in Monastery Anastasis Christou have been killed by Greek andarts because he refused to burn the church where Komitadjis were hiding (the Austrian consulate script 1906, under sign 543/00/238-42)

So there you go, it's there for further research. Try to deny it.

[Onur]

Guys, the information you know about these priests appointed by Istanbul patriarchy is not the whole truth. These priests as well as the Istanbul patriarchy was a puppet of western powers at those times. They were not "poor priests" as Coastal claims. They were the main suspects of the organization of several gangs and revolts and they were responsible for the death of 1000s of innocent people in Macedonia and Anatolia with British made weapons.

As for the Karavangelis, he was a British spy like most of the Greek officials at that time and he was playing double sided with the Turks and Greeks. He was also the head of all gangs in Blacksea region and he escaped to Europe from certain death penalty in Turkey when he failed in his duty given to him by British.



I tried to explaine some things about him in this message;

I think there are some missing parts in history about this evil named Karavangelis. I heard his name before reading your posts here but i didn't know much about him.

I just read few articles about him at Turkish websites. It says that he was the bishop of Kastoria from 1900 to 1907 and he secretly organized Greek bandit groups for Macedonia struggle in cooperation with Greece. At 1907, he was pulled back to Istanbul when Turkish government discovers his real aim in there. One year laters, Greek patriarchy in Istanbul appoints him to Amasya in Blacksea, Turkey, then he starts his same evil plans in Blacksea region and forms bandit groups to create fake Pontus kingdom. The articles mentions about transferring weapons secretly for Pontus bandits by using british commercial ships at Blacksea seaports and amy officials from Greece secretly comes to Blacksea to train these bandits. In short, Karavangelis was also the prime evil who created chaos in Blacksea region at 1914...1917.

I really cant figure out how they managed to make Muslims and Christians kill each other in Blacksea. These people never even involved any struggle since 13th century and lived in peace for 700 years.



None of these was a coincidence. Everything was planned and very well executed. Karavangelis appointed to Kastoria by Greek patriarchy in Istanbul. He organized Greek bandits to make Greece occupy Macedonia then at 1908, Istanbul patriarchy appoints him to Blacksea and Karavangelis immediately starts realizing exact same evil plan in there. British commercial ships secretly supplies weapons to them. Greek army officials trains the bandits and people who lived in peace for 700 years starts to kill each other. Most of Christians in these bandit groups was not even the local inhabitants of Blacksea. They were the recent immigrants who came from the north of Blacksea, Russian lands.

I am %100 sure all of these was the plans of great powers and it`s been executed very precisely and you know what, Armenian and Greek organizations today, using the memoirs of Karavengelis as a proof for their fake "Pontus hellenic genocide" claims;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=56584#post56584

[Coastal]

On topic:

Miss Minnie Mills, dean of the Inter-Collegiate Institute:

"I could plainly see the Turks carrying the tins of petroleum into the houses, from which, in each instance, fire burst forth immediately afterward. There was not an Armenian in sight, the only persons visible being Turkish soldiers of the regular army in smart uniforms"

---------------

Historian Wllliam Stearns Davis:

"The Turks drove straight onward to Smyrna, which they took (September 9, 1922) and then burned"

-----------------

Sir Valentine Chirol, lecturer at the University of Chicago:

"After the Turks had smashed the Greek armies they turned the essentially Greek city (Smyrna) into an ash heap as proof of their victory."

--------------

Mark Lambert Bristol, U.S. High Commissioner to Ottoman Empire:

"Many of us personally saw— and are ready to affirm the statement— Turkish soldiers often directed by officers throwing petroleum in the street and houses.
Vice-Consul Barnes watched a Turkish officer leisurely fire the Custom House and the Passport Bureau while at least fifty Turkish soldiers stood by.
Major Davis saw Turkish soldiers throwing oil in many houses. The Navy patrol reported seeing a complete horseshoe of fires started by the Turks around the American school.

-------

And there are dozens of other quotes from eye-witnesses and historians.
Your try to deny one of the most terrible Turkish attrocities (and that's an accomplishment ..since these attrocities are beyond any human being can imagine or count..) ...is at least pathetic.

[Coastal]

And the following is for all those who love Turks* ...

Two quotes from sir William Gladstone...
(you definetely know the first..what about the second ? )

1) "Next to the Ottoman Government nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy than jealousies between Greek and Slav, and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory.
Why not Macedonia for Macedonians, as well as Bulgaria for Bulgarians and Servia for Servians?"

-January 19th, 1897(letter addressed to the President of the Byron Society Hawarden Castle, Chester)

2) "Wherever they [the Turks] went a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization disappeared from view. They represented everywhere government by force as opposed to government by law."





*talking always abt Turks in history ,and not individuals or common people!

[Makedonetz]

"When Philip the son of Amyntas would not let Greece alone, the Eleans, weakened by civil strife, joined the Macedonian alliance, but they could not bring themselves to fight against the Greeks at Chaeronea. They joined Philip's attack on the Lacedaemonians because of their old hatred of that people, but on the death of Alexander they fought on the side of the Greeks against Antipater and the Macedonians" [5.4.9].

11] "In the Panegyricus he [Isocrates] had urged an understanding between Sparta and Athens, so that the Greeks might unite in a common expedition against the Persian empire. Nothing of that sort was any longer thinkable. But the policy of which he now had such high hopes offered a surprisingly simple solution for the distressing problem that lay heavily on all minds the problem of what was to be the ultimate relationship between Greece and the new power in the north (Macedonia)." [p.152] WERNER JAEGER Demosthenes


Dionysius son of Kalliphon

The ancient Greek historians and geographers from the classical and the post-classical period, Ephoros, Pseudo-Skylax, Dionysius son of Kalliphon, and Dionysius Periegetes, all put the northern borders of Greece at the line from the Ambracian Gulf in the west to the Peneios River to the east, thus excluding Macedonia from Greece.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What is your objection here?........

So you're unable or unwilling to answer why Greek priests blessed Muslim weapons as they killed Christians. I asked a simple question, don't waste my time by worming out of it and citing the crusades or whatever else you were rambling about.

I ve already answered on this-maybe you missed it.

And i've already told you. Try it again.

[Onur]

The So-Called Genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor

by Dr. George Nakratzas

February, 2007

E-mail: [email protected]

https://www.nakratzas.com

On around 15th September Greek television revived the issue of the Asia Minor catastrophe; once again, the leading players were stars of the patriotic PASOK party, such as Mr. G. Kapsis. This is a politician whose record includes the proposal which he laid before the Greek Parliament on 12th May 1997, together with MPs G. Haralambous and G. Diamantidis, that the 15th September be made an official day of remembrance in commemoration of the genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor.

Speaking on television Mr. Kapsis had much to say about his own version of history, but forgot, of course, to mention the crimes perpetrated by the Greek army before the Turkish troops occupied Smyrna, where - it is true - terrible crimes were committed (among the victims of these crimes were members of the author's family).

One might also mention the crime of genocide committed by Greek troops against the civilian Turkish population of Aydin on 28th and 29th June 1919.

To quote from the author's own work, Asia Minor and the origins of the refugees, page 123: While the Turkish forces counter-attacked against the Greeks, their successful approach to the bridge over the River Maiandros was the signal the Greeks had been awaiting. They first of all set fire to the four corners of the Turkish quarter, and then placed machine guns and armed soldiers and civilians at street corners, in high buildings and on the minarets. From these positions they opened fire on the local people, who attempted in terror to flee their burning houses. Injured people lying in the streets were compelled to return to their homes, where many poor people - old people, women and children - were burned alive.

In all 4400 people died - 4000 Muslims and only 400 non-Muslims. An act of genocide perpetrated by the Greek army against the entire Turkish population of the city of Aydin.

When it came to genocide and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, it was in fact the Greek army, which led the way. The first example was the slaying of 32,000 unarmed Turks and Jews in Tripoli in 1821, and the ethnic cleansing of the entire Slav-speaking population of Kilkis in 1913.

It is time Mr. Kapsis remembered the old proverb: People in glass houses...



OPEN LETTER

(After receipt of this letter, and after certain articles and letters in the newspaper Avyi Simitis withdrew from the National Printing Office the decree, already signed, and - having replaced the word 'genocide' with the word ' memory', sent it to the Council of State for their opinion.)

To:

The Right Honorable Kostas Simitis
Prime Minister of Greece
Athens

Dr. Georgios Nakratzas

Rotterdam, 20th February 2001

Subject: Presidential Decree on the Genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor

I have followed with interest the reaction of the Greek press to the proposal by Mr. Venizelos, Minister for Culture in the Greek government, concerning the signing of a Presidential Decree on making the 15th September an official day of remembrance of the genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor by the Turks in 1922. The articles in the newspaper Avyi on 18th February 2001 were particularly impressive and informative.

As a writer and the descendant of refugees from Asia Minor, I believe it is incumbent on me to comment on the articles mentioned above, in order to fill in certain gaps in historical memory, especially that of the younger generation in Greece.

The draft law laid before Greek Parliament on 12th May 1997 by the Members of Parliament G. Haralambous, G. Diamantidis and G. Kapsis, on the introduction of the aforesaid official day of remembrance, contains the following words: ...in a geographical region which saw the magnificent achievement of the idea of the multi-ethnic state with Greek culture and consciousness, either at the time of the heirs of Alexander, or during the Roman era, the years of Byzantium or the age of the Ottomans...

This nationalistic text submitted by the three MPs reflects a conscious or unwitting absence of historical knowledge in respect of the issue of the ethnic consciousness of the Greek-speaking people of Asia Minor during the period of the Roman Empire of the East (Byzantium) or the Ottoman Empire.

During the Byzantine era and the early part of the Ottoman Empire the Greek-speaking but actually multiethnic populations of Asia Minor did not regard themselves as Greeks but Romaioi, a word later corrupted to Romioi.

National identities were invented by the theoretical thinkers of the western Renaissance, and mainly used after the French Revolution to combat theocracy and feudalism, systems which characterized the social structure of the various empires.

Concepts such as multinational state with Greek ethnic consciousness are a stark contradiction, in themselves contradicting the views of the MPs introducing this bill.

At another point in their text the 3 MPs claim that the backbone of Greek civilization was uprooted, together with all its traditions and a rich three-thousand year Greek presence, with no attempt made to save them...

The text is an attempt to present the Greek presence in western Asia Minor and Smyrna as continuing uninterrupted over the last three thousand years. This is a notion quite at odds with historical reality - a reality of which the three MPs are probably ignorant.

It is well known from historical sources that in 1333 Smyrna was a city in ruins, while in 1390, the date of the fall of the last Byzantine bastion in Asia Minor, Philadelpheia (Alasehir) the whole region, both Smyrna and its hinterland, was literally depopulated of Christians. In 1402 the Han of Mongolia, Tamerlaine, slaughtered or enslaved all the remaining Christian inhabitants of Smyrna and its hinterland, who had fled there for refuge, in order to punish the Sultan Bayazit. In a recent academic study Ms. Anagnostopoulou informs us that in 1520 in the villayet of Aydin the Christian population amounted to just 0.9% of the total population, increasing by the end of the same century to 1.55%. Even as late as 1717 the city of Smyrna had 19 mosques, 18 synagogues and just 2 Orthodox churches.

A wholesale migration of Orthodox Christians into the villayet of Aydin took place after 1839, following the publication of the Tanzimat - a decree promulgated by the Sultan to the effect that both Christian and Muslim serfs were now free to leave the feudal estates.

The Orthodox economic migrants of the villayet of Aydin came from the islands or the Balkan lands of the empire, settling there to seek work. It is for the descendants of these migrants that the three Greek MPs are now claiming a three-thousand year presence in the region!

In 1912, according to the statistics compiled by Sotiriadis, and used officially by the government of Eleftherios Venizelos, in the villayet of Aydin - a huge region consisting of the sadzak of Magnesia, Smyrna, Aydin, Denisli and Mendese - out of a total population of 1,659,529 the Orthodox Christians accounted for 622,810, or 37.75% of the population, while Anagnostopoulou puts the figure lower at 435,398 or 26.2%. Of the 622,810 Greeks cited by Sotiriadis as inhabitants of the villayet of Aydin, 395,559, or 63.5%, lived in six coastal districts of the sadzak of Izmir, i.e. in a relatively small strip along the shore. The remaining Orthodox Christians were submerged in the great sea of Muslim populations.

The Presidential Decree also contains the following statement:

...Thus more than 1.5 million Greeks of Asia Minor were forced, mainly after the dramatic events of 1922, to abandon the homes of their forebears in Asia Minor and settle, as refugees, in Greece and in other regions...

Despite the fact that the text of the Presidential Decree now awaiting signature is intended to make the 15th September an official day of remembrance, as a physician - even though my special area is the lungs, rather than the mind - I have to point out that the authors of the text are showing definite clinical symptoms of historical amnesia!

How little the homes of the Greeks of Asia Minor were really the 'homes of their forefathers' we have made clear in the preceding paragraph.

What the authors of the text fail to mention is the question of what the Greek army was doing in the regions of Proussa, Kutahya, Afion Kara-Hisar and the Sangari River - regions where the Greek population was either an insignificant minority or entirely non-existent.

Greeks were a minority only in the sadzak of Proussa, where, according to Sotiriadis, of a total population of 353,976, Orthodox Christians numbered 85,505, or 23.3%, mainly settled in the coastal areas.

According to Anagnostopoulou, the Romioi of the sadzak of Proussa numbered not 85,505 but just 56,233, while in the other regions mentioned above the number of Greeks was negligible, if indeed there was a Greek presence at all.

In 1922 the Greek army in this region was no more than an army of occupation, conducting an imperialist-expansionist campaign within the heart of Turkish national territory.

The text of the Presidential Decree also states that the Greeks were compelled - mainly after the dramatic events of 1922 - to leave their homes, but it is silent on two important details, i.e. what was the behaviour of the Greek populations before the battle of Ankara in 1922, and who imposed the compulsory exchange of populations.

To examine the first of these questions we might take as an example the behaviour of the Greek population of Proussa, who - according to Anagnostopoulou - amounted to 5100 individuals out of a population of 85,600.

The writer Adamantiadis, descended from a Proussa family, describes how the occupation of Eski-Sehir by the Greek army was celebrated by the Greeks of Proussa with a torch lit procession, while the Greek inhabitants of military age, although they were Ottoman subjects, joined the ranks of the Greek army of occupation and fought against the Turkish army of liberation, led by Kemal Attaturk, on the nearby front.

To really appreciate the importance of the events narrated by Adamantiadis, one needs to ask oneself how the Greek authorities would have reacted after the Second World War if - during the Bulgarian occupation of eastern Macedonia - the Slav-speaking Macedonians of Serres and Drama had welcomed with torch lit processions the Bulgarian troops, and if some of them had donned Bulgarian uniform and fought against the Greek army at some point of a hypothetical battlefront.

We are well aware of the moral contempt felt by the Greek people for those security squads wearing German uniforms during the Occupation of our own country. That the people of Proussa should have fled before the imminent onslaught of the Turkish army is all too understandable.

It is well known that the Greeks in areas not close to the battlefields were forced to flee as refugees, like, for example, the people of Cappadocia and eastern Thrace.

In the study by Svolopoulos - published by the extreme nationalist Society for Macedonian Studies in Thessaloniki - it is explicitly stated that the compulsory exchange of populations was not proposed, and insisted on, by the Turkish government, but by the Greek government of Eleftherios Venizelos. Svolopoulos states that since the Turkish government was opposed to the exchange, there was a widespread feeling within the Greek government that 500,000 Turks from northern Greece should be forcibly removed from their homes and taken to somewhere on the Turkish coastline. Svolopoulos writes that this idea was abandoned because of the very poor impression it would have made on the Europeans. In the end the Turkish government was obliged to consent to the Greek proposal for a compulsory exchange of populations.

It is not my purpose in writing this letter to hurl allegations of crimes committed in other times, in different social systems with different moral standards.

My purpose is instead to support the statement made by Professor Antonis Bredimas of the University of Athens, in an article he wrote for the Avyi newspaper on 18th February 2001, as follows:

But if one wants to look ahead and not back into the past, one must take to heart the recommendation made recently by a fellow academic of mine: The two peoples should recognize what they have suffered at each other's hands, and ask forgiveness for what they have done to one another.

Dr. Georgios Nakratzas

BIBLIOGRAPHY
GEORGIOS NAKRATZAS
ASIA MINOR AND THE ORIGINS OF THE REFUGEES
The imperialist Greek policy of 1922 and the Asia Minor catastrophe

BATAVIA PRESS, Thessaloniki, 2000
Central Distribution in Greece
Thessaloniki: tel. 031 237463
Athens: tel. 01 3639336
ISBN: 960-85800-6-4

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/nakratzas/nakratzas_genocide_asia_minor.html

[johnMKD]

Very nice finding, Onur, especially from a Greek source. However, I think the following statement summarises everything:

The two peoples should recognize what they have suffered at each other's hands, and ask forgiveness for what they have done to one another.

Both sides did their part of bad to the other side, that's de facto. The two countries have now to move on both mentally (and I think Turkey is way ahead on this ) and practically towards neighbourhood friendship and collaboration.