Kolokotronis the Albanian

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Banned
    • Jan 2009
    • 3823

    What is your source Carlin?

    Comment

    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      TM -

      Source #1:

      ΒΛΑΧΟΙ vs γραικών 02.divx - YouTube

      1:54-2:01 (last paragraph): "...ο αυθέντης των Βλάχων προς τον γέροντα Βλάχων.." -- "the lord of the Vlachs.." etc.

      Source #2 (in Serbian):



      Copy and Paste:

      Teodor Kolokotroni ( Ciorkina),
      komandant svih ustanickih snaga na Peloponezu za vreme Grckog ustanka (1821- 1828) i istaknuti junak Cincara . U sastavu svojih elitnih trupa je imao 6000 farsheriota. 200 armatola je cinilo njegovu licnu gardu. Prema istoricaru Goudasu grcko oslobodjenje ne bi bilo moguce bez Kolokotronija. On je svet odusevio svojim herojstvom i zato su ga zvali " Kralj Cincara". Veliki heroji grckog ustanka, kapetani, armatoli su bili jos i :
      Varnahioti, Rangu, Sturnari, Gavela, Staiti, Ciari, Caciandoni i drugi

      .."they called him Lord/King of the Vlachs".

      Although I'm not sure what "Ciorkina" refers to..? It seems that his real surname was Tserginis or Tsergini/Chergini; he grew up in a Peloponnesian village bearing a Slavic name.

      Source #3:

      This comes from the famous SKAI (Greek) documentary about Greek revolution in 1821, but also about the state of Greek society prior and after the revolution, and after independence. In one of the videos which I watched a few weeks ago, Thanos Veremis (which I have mentioned already on a couple of occasions), states that Kolokotroni was a πολύγλωσσων, that is MULTILINGUAL.

      I would have to find the exact video though...

      Comment

      • TrueMacedonian
        Banned
        • Jan 2009
        • 3823

        For your source number 3 years ago I posted something from a famous greek who said something along those lines, "Kolokotronis wanted a multi-lingual greece".

        The other sources I am not sure about them. But one thing I agree with is that he is not at all an ethnic "hellene".

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          Fully asgree with that TM but the last thing the greeks need is to expose themselves that they are multilingual.That would be nothing more like releasing the cat to the pidgeons.That would really destroy it's gomogenous existence of a pure greece.I don't think that would be in its national interest.We know for the sake of their minorities it has long been overdue that they should recognize them but they won't.
          Last edited by George S.; 09-20-2012, 11:38 AM. Reason: ed
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
            For your source number 3 years ago I posted something from a famous greek who said something along those lines, "Kolokotronis wanted a multi-lingual greece".

            The other sources I am not sure about them. But one thing I agree with is that he is not at all an ethnic "hellene".
            Good point, and you are likely correct. Nevertheless, I think we can wrap this one up.

            I'm fascinated by the fact that the Vlach language was spoken all over the Peloponnese and Attica in the 19th century (..and likely into the 20th century). Who knows how similar it was to the language of the Vlachs of Macedonia and Albania. What is even more interesting, but troubling at the same time, is that pockets of Slavic speakers (most likely) still existed in the Peloponnese roughly 200 years ago. Who knows what dialect it was and if it was related to Macedonian (the nearest Slavic language) in any way, or - it might have been as a separate Slavic language with its own grammar! Unfortunately, this cultural and historical wealth was not preserved. Moreover, the new state wiped it out deliberately and pursued policies to this effect.

            Article 16, paragraph 2 of the Greek Constitution, which relates to the mission of education, which is determined: that it is the development of national and religious consciousness. This is done by adopting (creating/inventing) and celebrating national holidays, with parades, speeches, churchgoing, sanctification in schools, and teaching mainly History, Language and Religion. Fostering national and religious consciousness is not limited to a few classes, but they are spread across the spectrum of school knowledge.

            Comment

            • TrueMacedonian
              Banned
              • Jan 2009
              • 3823

              Originally posted by Carlin View Post
              Good point, and you are likely correct. Nevertheless, I think we can wrap this one up.

              I'm fascinated by the fact that the Vlach language was spoken all over the Peloponnese and Attica in the 19th century (..and likely into the 20th century).
              Carlin the sources I have seen, especially from philhellenes like Hammond, state that the peloponnese was overwhelmingly Albanian. I am sure there were plenty of Vlachs to fill the holes in between and very possibly these were ArvanitoVlachs like those mentioned in Winnifrith's book. But the sources I have read and posted usually state that Albanian was the language most spoken in what would become modern "greece".

              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                Carlin the sources I have seen, especially from philhellenes like Hammond, state that the peloponnese was overwhelmingly Albanian. I am sure there were plenty of Vlachs to fill the holes in between and very possibly these were ArvanitoVlachs like those mentioned in Winnifrith's book. But the sources I have read and posted usually state that Albanian was the language most spoken in what would become modern "greece".
                This is true, however, I believe that western and other travellers confused "Albanian" for "Vlach" in many cases. The truth is that most of the visitors were largely ignorant of either Vlach or Albanian (and even Slavic dialects) languages, and "confused" one for another without any malicious intent. So, when they came across people speaking either Vlach or Albanian, they classified them as "Albanians" (not to mention that many Arvanito-Vlachs likely spoke both languages). No less an authority than Edward Gibbon, stated that "the Wallachians still preserve many traces of the Latin language", which only shows how little he knew of Vlach grammar, vocabulary or the language in general -- which is now classified as a Romance or Neo-Latin tongue.

                What all this means is that literary sources (whether ancient, medieval or recent) should be treated as simply 'Sources' to be analyzed and investigated, and not as 'Authority' or 'Gospels' to be accepted without question.

                As the video above shows ('Source #1', unless it is a forgery) -- it appears that in the 19th century Vlachs were more numerous than Albanians in the Peloponnese. It also mentions Hellenized Slavs, which lead me to believe there were still bilingual Slavs in the Peloponnese as late as the 19th century.

                I should also add the following. It seems that the reason western visitors saw "only Greeks" is because a significant proportion of Vlachs were bilingual and spoke both Vlach and Greek (.. and used only Greek for high-level communication and religious purposes). Some Albanians spoke Greek, but only a small minority. How else does one explain contradictions..? In one source we have only "Greeks" and in other "Vlachs", in the same localities! Here is an interesting quote from Sir Arthur Evans, whom the modern Greeks and Bulgarians love to cite for obvious reasons:

                "It is an unpleasant duty to have to tell one's friends home truths, but the Greek claim to Macedonia, at least as regards the greater part of the interior of the country, is a dream. In some of the towns there is a fair Greek population, but even in that case, as in Monastir, for example, the statistics rest on an artificial basis. The truth is that a large number of those described as Greeks are really Roumans."

                Would it be so outlandish to speculate that the same process was happening with the Vlachs in Peloponnese, Attica, Aetolia, Acarnania, Thessaly and Epirus? It would explain why Kolokotroni wanted a "multilingual Greece".

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13675

                  The below link leads to an article written by a Golden Dawn member, who claims an Albanian connection to Kolokotronis.

                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    The below link leads to an article written by a Golden Dawn member, who claims an Albanian connection to Kolokotronis.

                    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=7213
                    1) Before departing from this vain world, Kolokotronis wrote his will for his children and was blessed to see Collinos, his younger son, married to the grand daughter of Caradja, the Prince of Moldovlachia, saying the unparalleled phrase, Now the fur coat has become an in-law with the cloak, the fez with the top hat, the Sovereign of the Vlachs with a Vlach of an old man!



                    2) Θ Κολοκοτρώνη: σκατόβλαχο τον αποκαλεί ο προύχοντας της Πελοποννήσου Κανέλλος Δεληγιάννης.

                    Rough translation -

                    Kolokotronis: Kanellos Deligiannis calls him "skatovlacho".

                    This website is for sale! hellinon.net is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, hellinon.net has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!

                    Comment

                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      ΚΟΛΟΚΟΤΡΩΝΗΣ Ο ΒΛΑΧΟΒΑΣΙΛΙΑΣ = Kolokotronis King of the Vlachs

                      5:45 - 7:05

                      The title is self-explanatory and it tells us the following regarding Kolokotronis:

                      - He was a Vlach.
                      - As he was titled "King of the Vlachs" the majority of his followers and rebels of the "Greek Revolution" were Vlachs.
                      (- Georgakis Olympios, Ioannis Farmakis, Kasomoulis, Kitsos Tzavelas, Koloktronis, etc. were all Vlachs.)

                      ΚΟΛΟΚΟΤΡΩΝΗΣ Ο ΒΛΑΧΟΒΑΣΙΛΙΑΣ - YouTube

                      Vlachs = Modern Greeks

                      Comment

                      • momce
                        Banned
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 426

                        Yes the same process seemed to have been going on in "greece" and the Balkans. Basically formal terrorism by the "modern" greek purist party. But I see what was going on there in the revolution, the purists got other peoples to fight for their construct "Greece" and then they were murdered and jailed after the revolutionary war. The original revolutionary fighters seems did not have this purist vision of "greece" let alone of territories later claimed by this purist greek party. Todays "greeks" are so far removed from that process historically that theyre not aware of their real origins or of their pseudo-country. I think modern greek was basically a scam by elites they could force everyone to speak the same language quietly wiping out their own languages and cultures so they could collect at the centralised cash register. So the cultivation of "nationalism" was a power ploy. The "greek" elites themselves still obviously observed their non-greek culture privately. It makes sense since no one was speaking greek on the "greek mainland" since at least the Post-Alexandrian period. It makes sense more to me when I see how confused and unstable the modern greeks are brainwashed by a rentier culture, pseudo-modern Hellenism. It makes more sense to me when I notice no writer has every been able to write a modern greek "laografia".
                        Last edited by momce; 02-19-2013, 03:13 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          Additional sources.

                          1) In the first source, Kolokotronis is called an Arvanitovlach, and a testimony is provided where it is explained how he was speaking to his soldiers in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.

                          - Ο Κολοκοτρώνης ήταν Αρβανιτόβλαχος --> Kolokotronis was an Arvanitovlach.
                          - The Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) of the era visited Kolokotronis in dens, wrote that Kolokotronis was speaking to his asker (soldiers) in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.

                          Source:


                          2) Further connections of Kolokotronis to the Vlachs - this time to the Vlachs/Arvanitovlachs further north.

                          In a conversation with Theodoros Yennaiou Kolokotronis (Theodoros Kolokotroniss young grandson), the falkaris aged tselingas, whose name was Poulios, claimed to have been a companion of Konstandis and Theodoros Kolokotronis and a friend of Odysseas Androutsos. This supports Aravandinoss view that there were Arvanitovlachs in Roumeli long before 1821, and it also, perhaps, bears out what Pouqueville says about the Vlachs from Kossina.

                          Source:

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            Adding the following source as well, from To Vima.

                            Link to the article "We are all Vlachs" (Είμαστε όλοι Βλάχοι):


                            Βλάχικης καταγωγής ήταν ο Κολοκοτρώνης (Τσεργίνης άλλωστε το πραγματικό επίθετό του), βλαχόφωνοι πολλοί συμπολεμιστές του

                            Kolokotronis was Vlach (besides, the actual last name was Tserginis), many of his comrades were Vlachophones

                            Comment

                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              Vlahs such as Kolokotronis and Rigas provided leadership in the struggle for independence from the Turks.



                              Source/Link:

                              Comment

                              • Amphipolis
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 1328

                                Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                                Additional sources.

                                1) In the first source, Kolokotronis is called an Arvanitovlach, and a testimony is provided where it is explained how he was speaking to his soldiers in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.

                                - Ο Κολοκοτρώνης ήταν Αρβανιτόβλαχος --> Kolokotronis was an Arvanitovlach.
                                - The Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) of the era visited Kolokotronis in dens, wrote that Kolokotronis was speaking to his asker (soldiers) in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.

                                Source:
                                This is not a source but an unknown Vlach internet blogger called Babis Mentis (no further information could be found about him). He actually does not provide (any) sources. The style and arguments are not reliable; actually they’re laughable (e.g. he considers Kolokotronis’ straight and brutal humor as a typical Vlach one!).

                                Edit: Mentis actually provides his bio here (http://spmentis.mysch.gr/images/medi...S_MAS_2011.pdf, at page 10) as an amateur Vlach activist interested in Vlach cultural heritage and history.


                                Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                                2) Further connections of Kolokotronis to the Vlachs - this time to the Vlachs/Arvanitovlachs further north.

                                In a conversation with Theodoros Yennaiou Kolokotronis (Theodoros Kolokotronis’s young grandson), the falkari’s aged tselingas, whose name was Poulios, claimed to have been a companion of Konstandis and Theodoros Kolokotronis and a friend of Odysseas Androutsos. This supports Aravandinos’s view that there were Arvanitovlachs in Roumeli long before 1821, and it also, perhaps, bears out what Pouqueville says about the Vlachs from Kossina.

                                Source:
                                http://www.vlachs.gr/en/the-vlachs-m...ainland-greece
                                Are you sure you read the paragraph you copied? In this an old Arvanitovlach claims to have met Kolokotronis (and others) and has fought by their side.




                                ===
                                Last edited by Amphipolis; 05-17-2016, 02:01 PM.

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