Kolokotronis the Albanian

[Carlin]

This is not a source but an unknown Vlach internet blogger called Babis Mentis (no further information could be found about him). He actually does not provide (any) sources. The style and arguments are not reliable; actually they’re laughable (e.g. he considers Kolokotronis’ straight and brutal humor as a typical Vlach one!).

Edit: Mentis actually provides his bio here (http://spmentis.mysch.gr/images/medi...S_MAS_2011.pdf, at page 10) as an amateur Vlach activist interested in Vlach cultural heritage and history.

The man might be unknown, but that does not give us the right to dismiss him outright. As you noted, you were able to find his bio online so it's not like he is totally unreliable and/or unknown.

By the way, the authors of that blog (whether it was him, someone else, or a group of people) self identify as ETHNIC HELLENES. (Why would he/they go out of their way to assert that Kolokotronis was a Vlach-speaker?)

I think what's important and interesting here is whether the statement of the Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) that Kolokotronis was speaking to his soldiers in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika is true or not. It would be nice to see if the author can provide the source.

(What would your opinion be if this source can be identified, which shows Kolokotronis to be a Vlach-speaker?)

Are you sure you read the paragraph you copied? In this an old Arvanitovlach claims to have met Kolokotronis (and others) and has fought by their side.
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Correct. It's simply another proof that Kolokotronis was connected to the Vlachs, and had Vlach-speaking comrades and companions.

What do you think of the ToVima source/link? It explicitly states that Kolokotronis was a Vlach whose real surname was Tserginis, and who had many Vlach companions.

I believe there might be something to these claims.

NOTE that these are all claims by people who self identify as modern Hellenes/Greeks. They are hardly done in a mean-spirited or propagandist way.

[Carlin]

Interesting - further explicit connections to the Vlachs.

I mention Theodoros (of Geneos) Kolokotronis’ information that Arvanito-Aromanian women in Roumeli (Central Greece) composed (matching Greek and Aromanian languages) heroic songs, which all people of that time knew and sang.

Source:

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-relationship-of-aromanians-with.html

[Amphipolis]

The man might be unknown, but that does not give us the right to dismiss him outright. As you noted, you were able to find his bio online so it's not like he is totally unreliable and/or unknown.

By the way, the authors of that blog (whether it was him, someone else, or a group of people) self identify as ETHNIC HELLENES. (Why would he/they go out of their way to assert that Kolokotronis was a Vlach-speaker?)

I think what's important and interesting here is whether the statement of the Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) that Kolokotronis was speaking to his soldiers in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika is true or not. It would be nice to see if the author can provide the source.

(What would your opinion be if this source can be identified, which shows Kolokotronis to be a Vlach-speaker?)

1. His bio is provided by him in an internet book he wrote about the history of his family and his village. He says he has no scientific credentials but does not give further information about himself. I wasn’t implying I’m against amateurs writing history books or opinions.

2. Probably because they’re Vlachs. Yet, I don’t see anyone suggesting Kolokotronis was Vlach. In a superficial research I couldn’t find reliable sources on the foreign languages he could speak.

3. We would evaluate it if we could see the source. All I have to say is Kolokotronis was a very important person and 1820s was not in prehistoric era; there are no big mysteries either in his life or the languages and dialects spoken at the time. What unbelievable and missing information could one expect?

4. It is your interpretation that a language other than Greek and Arvanite would be Vlach. We’ve read foreign hellenists who could speak (ancient) Greek in Erasmian pronunciation, being unable to understand modern Greeks or be understood by them (mostly because of pronunciation), so go figure.

Correct. It's simply another proof that Kolokotronis was connected to the Vlachs, and had Vlach-speaking comrades and companions.
What do you think of the ToVima source/link? It explicitly states that Kolokotronis was a Vlach whose real surname was Tserginis, and who had many Vlach companions.
I believe there might be something to these claims.
NOTE that these are all claims by people who self identify as modern Hellenes/Greeks. They are hardly done in a mean-spirited or propagandist way.

1. No, it’s not. Funnily enough, the author stands skeptical that an Arvanitovlach could have gone that South.

2. No, it doesn’t. It’s not clear if that’s written on the commentary about the book, or the book itself, or what it implies. That Tserginis is a Vlach name? LOL, That would be news to Kolokotronis himself if he could read it.

3. Mertzos (the author of the book) is a well-known Greek nationalist who is Vlach. This is a political manifest.

4. I don’t know anyone seriously claiming that Kolokotronis was a Vlach or an Arvanite or any relevant scientific article. Most reliable info about his ancestry comes from his memoirs, the very first pages actually. They can be found online in English translation I believe.


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[Carlin]

In what sense is the term "Vlach" used in the Source below?

Phrantzes asserts the people of the Peloponnese called Kolokotronis KING OF THE VLACHS (Abridged History, Volume 4, p. 131).




"… of worthiness in the various siege and battles for this the ordinary people named him King of the Vlachs, or Vlachovasilia."


PS: There are other sources (at least five more), one of which specifically makes mention of βλαχικη διαλεκτο του (that is, the "Vlach dialect").

[Amphipolis]

In what sense is the term "Vlach" used in the Source below?

Phrantzes asserts the people of the Peloponnese called Kolokotronis KING OF THE VLACHS (Abridged History, Volume 4, p. 131).

"… of worthiness in the various siege and battles for this the ordinary people named him King of the Vlachs, or Vlachovasilia."


PS: There are other sources (at least five more), one of which specifically makes mention of βλαχικη διαλεκτο του (that is, the "Vlach dialect").

It's mostly in the sense of "peasant" (actually the opposite of “tsopelos”, a city dweller). Yet, what the author misses is that the term is not exactly affectionate, but also slightly satirical. The same satirical, condescending term was later used for "Vlachoepanastasi" (Vlach uprising) an 1834 uprising that did not involve any Vlachs.

[Carlin]

It's mostly in the sense of "peasant" (actually the opposite of “tsopelos”, a city dweller). Yet, what the author misses is that the term is not exactly affectionate, but also slightly satirical. The same satirical, condescending term was later used for "Vlachoepanastasi" (Vlach uprising) an 1834 uprising that did not involve any Vlachs.

Could it be possible that it simply means and refers to Vlach-speakers?

In what sense is the phrase "βλαχικην διαλεκτον του/Vlach dialect" and the term "ο Βλαχος/the Vlach" being used below?

Μ. Οικονομου, Ιστορικα-Ελληνικη σειρα, τομος 14, Αθηνα 1957, σ.143: ''Και παλιν ο Κολοκοτρωνης (ο Βλαχος ή κλεφτης, οπως τον ονομαζαν οι κοτσαμπασηδες), ο συκοφαντηθεις και ετι συκοφαντουμενος [...] με τη δημωδη βλαχικην διαλεκτον του και τας αφελεις παροιμιας και παραβολας του...''

Source: Γιωργης Εξαρχος - ''Οι Ελληνοβλαχοι Αρμανοι'' ("The Hellenovlahoi Armanoi")

http://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789...s-tomos-204956

[Carlin]

Screenshot - for fair use.


Source: Ο Γιωργης Εξαρχος στο βιβλιο του ''Οι Ελληνοβλαχοι Αρμανοι''.

[Carlin]

The source here is: Sokratis Liakos, "The origins of the Armonians (Vlachs)" - pages 112 and page 113.

According to S. Liakos:
- Kolokotronis was a Vlach-speaking Arvanito-Vlach.
- The ancestral homeland of his family was Arvanito-Vlach land, and not Arvanite.
- In the Peloponnese, around the time of the Greek revolution (first half of the 19th century), there were both Vlach traders and Vlach shepherds.
- Across the entire Peloponnese the shepherds were Bilingual Vlachs (Diglwssoi Graikoblaxoi), but not monolingual Greek-speakers.

Basic translation of some parts:

"Pouqeville and Cousinery inform us (in 1828), that in the Peloponnese there were Vlach traders and Vlach nomadic shepherds. And Cousinery certifies us that even across Peloponnese the nomadic shepherds were bilingual Greko-Vlachs, but not monolingual Greek-speakers. This further affirm what we already know about Kolokotronis and the ancestral homeland of his family Tsergini. As Philemon writes, the 'Old Man of Morea' had extensive families in the provinces .... Tertsetis added that Kolokotronis knew and spoke to the Vlach shepherds in the "entopious" language, which means he was not a Greek-speaker, especially since Phrantzis says the people of the Peloponnese called him king of the Vlachs. And he also said in his memoirs that Tsergini (from the homeland they originated from) were nomadic shepherds .... The Tsergini homeland was Arvanitovlach and not Arvanite."

[Carlin]

The source --> Sokratis Liakos, "The origins of the Armonians (Vlachs)" - pages 166 and page 167:

The same proportion of course was among the population of the Peloponnese, where as Venetian governors wrote the pastoralists were exclusively Arvanites. In fact most of them were Farsaliotes (= Arvanitovlachs) and even from the ancestral Ziarkanon (or Siarganaion, or Tserginaion, hence the Kolokotronaioi) that suffered tremendous damage during the revolution of 1821, as e.g. their bravery Prountziou from which as recounted by Fotakos killed by fighting and eighty warriors. An old Farsaliatiko couplet that says: Maras lji Sarganjots s’ dussira Mureaua tots, i.e. translation: Unfortunate are Sarganaioi, all perished in the Morea.

[Carlin]

ΜΙΧΑΛΗΣ Ζ. ΠΛΙΤΣΗΣ "ΒΛΑΧΙΚΗ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ ΚΑΙ ΑΡΧΑΙΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΙ ΔΙΑΛΕΚΤΟΙ"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdWMtI7WawQ

M. Plitsis - "Aromanian language and ancient Greek dialects"

Start watching at 0:55 of the linked youtube video -- M. Plitsis calls Kolokotronis a Vlach.

[PS: Apologies, but the video is in Greek. It would be nice to have full/accurate translations.]

[Carlin]

Why would Theodoros (of Geneos) Kolokotronis have this information at all?

"I mention Theodoros (of Geneos) Kolokotronis’ information that Arvanito-Aromanian women in Roumeli (Central Greece) composed (matching Greek and Aromanian languages) heroic songs, which all people of that time knew and sang."

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-relationship-of-aromanians-with.html

[Carlin]

Page 495:

For Kolokotronis there are two additional anecdotes: Vlach songs, as sung by Arvanitovlach G. Ntikas, born in 1910 in Hrupista (now Argos Orestikon) Macedonia, by whoever heard and learned from the Vlach-speaking residents of the village Koutsi Argolida (recorded in 1995).

(I will share and post these two songs in due time, from the same book.)

Source: ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ).

http://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789600327854-exarchos-giorgis-kastaniotis-oi-ellinoblachoi-armanoi-deuteros-tomos-104665

For fair use



Page 495

[Carlin]

RE - Page 495:

For Kolokotronis there are two additional anecdotes: Vlach songs, as sung by Arvanitovlach G. Ntikas, born in 1910 in Hrupista (now Argos Orestikon) Macedonia, by whoever heard and learned from the Vlach-speaking residents of the village Koutsi Argolida (recorded in 1995).

Source: ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ).

As promised, here are the scans of two Vlach songs. Pages 495 to 498 (namely 496 and 497, song appears in Vlach language followed by Greek).

[Amphipolis]

There's nothing wrong with amateur historians (George Exarchos studied and teaches Economics) but judging by the structure of his text, the content and certainty of his conclusions and some hilarious phrases (“we had already proved that in our previous book, but this is an additional proof”) in the small parts of the pages I can see, what can I say? Jesus Christ we've seen worst.

Last week it was Bouboulina planning to convert and marry a Turkish general. This time (if I understand correctly) Kolokotronis has an unknown Vlach (?) sister and another unknown brother Dimitri?

And wait… this is a Vlach song someone heard in Argolis where there are no Vlachs at all? And this someone is an amateur singer with a name that doesn’t produce Google results? That’s really a great proof.

And why is this in the defamatory thread Kolokotronis the Albanian? Why don’t we start Kolokotronis the Vlach admiral?

[tchaiku]

Vlachs and Greeks did coexist in historical documents even in medieval ones.