Kolokotronis the Albanian

[Voltron]

now you're just trying to insult our intelligence by saying that there was no Albanian ethnos at that time. I strongly recommend to you to read XIX century accounts dealing with the Albanians in Balkans. All of them saw Albanians as being a single unit, aware for their common language, origin and traditions. I do not want to waste my time by giving you tons of evidences about non-existence of Greek ethnos and nation at that time.

I am well aware of your position regarding the Greek ethnos. No need to repost it, its plastered all over this forum. Regarding your ethnos is a different matter. If for one instance there ever was a single Albanian ethnos back then, there would of been an Independent Albania before an Independent Greece. There is simply no other explanation why Arvanites of today consider themselves an integral part of the Greek ethnos.

The Ottomans managed to really divide your ppl placing them in high positions from Ali Pasha in Epirus to Pasha of Egypt. Many of your ppl converted en masse and became one of Ottomans most loyal subjects. No need to deny this. Our concept of where we belong was very much different back then. Espescially under Empires and not today's nation states. You cannot use todays standards to interpret a different time and circumstances.

[Risto the Great]

If for one instance there ever was a single Albanian ethnos back then, there would of been an Independent Albania before an Independent Greece.

Modern Greeks are a combination of a number of ethnicities. Why did they get a nation before Albanians and Macedonians? It was convenient for the Great Powers to create the Greek nation. It was less convenient for the other surrounding States to be created. Who won your independence Voltron? Don't bother, I can't be bothered.

[vojnik]

Is it really hard to not mess yourself in the comments of others? I am following just the Albanian pronunciation of my country. So, I am pretty interested what does this bother you? You can't impose to me how to pronounce the names of countries.

P.S: SoM, I gave my response in the post #68!

What are you trying to achieve by calling Kosovo by it's Albanian name on this forum? In every post you try to write Kosovo as may times as possible in Albanian as though your trying as hard as you can to spread Shiptar propaganda here. I believe this section of the forum is in English and the other section is in Macedonian, neither of which pronounce Kosovo as Kosova. You don't really see members of this forum calling Macedonia "Makedonija" every time they mention it because that is the way they pronounce it in their native tongue so it should be imposed on everyone. We are writting in English and sometimes Macedonian I don't see the need for Shiptar propaganda on this forum.

[Sputnik]

VOLTRON; If for one instance there ever was a single Albanian ethnos back then, there would of been an Independent Albania before an Independent Greece.

Ethnos was of no importance during Ottomon rule. Even though Albanians of that time practiced and kept their culture, language etc, Religious association was inplace of Ethnos (Nationalism). It is believed that the uprising was created by religious figures such as Germanos of Patra who blessed with the proclamation of national uprising against the Ottoman empire and independence on March 25, 1821, at the Monastery of Agia Lavra. He blessed a Greek flag which infact was a Christian symbol (which adds to my theory it was more a religious uprising than anything else) and this symbol had no asociation with ancient Greece or a Greek Ethnos at the time.


Nationallism was introduced shortly afterwards and aprt from (the convenience factor for the Great Powers to create the Greek nation) another reason was thanks to the imagination and passion for Hellenism of the Bavaria King Ludwig I. The same King who in 1807 as a Crown Prince, conceived The Walhalla temple which is situated on the Danube River, east of Regensburg, in Bavaria, Germany. A temple that is very parthanon looking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walhalla_temple

King Ludwig used an architect Leo von Klenze not only to build Walhalla, but also for reconstruction of Athens in the style of Ancient Greece.

Because nationalism (Ethnos) did not exist, the west had a clean slate to work with which is why they were so successful converting a nation and fake ethnos today called Greeks and Greece. A classic case of Frankenstein and his created monster.

[Voltron]

Ethnos was of no importance during Ottomon rule. Even though Albanians of that time practiced and kept their culture, language etc, Religious association was inplace of Ethnos (Nationalism). It is believed that the uprising was created by religious figures such as Germanos of Patra who blessed with the proclamation of national uprising against the Ottoman empire and independence on March 25, 1821, at the Monastery of Agia Lavra. He blessed a Greek flag which infact was a Christian symbol (which adds to my theory it was more a religious uprising than anything else) and this symbol had no asociation with ancient Greece or a Greek Ethnos at the time.


Nationallism was introduced shortly afterwards and aprt from (the convenience factor for the Great Powers to create the Greek nation) another reason was thanks to the imagination and passion for Hellenism of the Bavaria King Ludwig I. The same King who in 1807 as a Crown Prince, conceived The Walhalla temple which is situated on the Danube River, east of Regensburg, in Bavaria, Germany. A temple that is very parthanon looking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walhalla_temple

King Ludwig used an architect Leo von Klenze not only to build Walhalla, but also for reconstruction of Athens in the style of Ancient Greece.

Because nationalism (Ethnos) did not exist, the west had a clean slate to work with which is why they were so successful converting a nation and fake ethnos today called Greeks and Greece. A classic case of Frankenstein and his created monster.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, except for the well known position of the "West" creating the Greek ethnos. It really is ridiculous to think that it would be that easy for a couple of Germans, Brits or what have you to create a new ethnos. Espescially in those years. Today we have internet where movements and propaganda can be spread in a matter of seconds. Facebook and arab uprisings for example, and even now how easy would it be for the West to create a new ethnos ? They might as well employ those tactics in Afghanistan or other troubled areas where there has been civil strife since time immemorial. Did the West have admiration of Greek history ? Sure, why not, but that does not mean that they can create us. That is just ridiculous.

[Risto the Great]

Give it 100 years and the right breeding ground and I think you could do what you propose. Greece is a good example.

[Voltron]

Give it 100 years and the right breeding ground and I think you could do what you propose. Greece is a good example.

If your referring to assimlation then I agree with you. But assimilation is not something that is forced from the outside, its something that happens on the inside. Its happening now with second generation Albanian families that have came to Greece during the nineties for work. Arvanites 2.0 in the making. But to say that they and some Vlachs make up the Greek ethnos in its entireity is overreaching a bit. Most if not all Greeks I know have have neither of those groups, and as you can imagine I know a lot.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Most if not all Greeks I know have have neither of those groups, and as you can imagine I know a lot.

That is because their historical memory has been erased over years of forced assimilation. If your country wasn't in a vortex of perpetual xenophobia and allowed its Macedonians, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Roma, etc their rights as minorities you would be singing a different tune.

[Voltron]

That is because their historical memory has been erased over years of forced assimilation. If your country wasn't in a vortex of perpetual xenophobia and allowed its Macedonians, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Roma, etc their rights as minorities you would be singing a different tune.

Not at all, there is no shame in being an Arvanite, Vlach, or Macedonian in Greece. They have absolutly no reason to hide it. That is completely false. Even the Roma here have absolutly no problems where in other balkan countries they are spit upon. Too be frank, not too many ppl really care.

[Onur]

I pretty much agree with everything you said, except for the well known position of the "West" creating the Greek ethnos. It really is ridiculous to think that it would be that easy for a couple of Germans, Brits or what have you to create a new ethnos. Espescially in those years. Today we have internet where movements and propaganda can be spread in a matter of seconds. Facebook and arab uprisings for example, and even now how easy would it be for the West to create a new ethnos ? They might as well employ those tactics in Afghanistan or other troubled areas where there has been civil strife since time immemorial. Did the West have admiration of Greek history ? Sure, why not, but that does not mean that they can create us. That is just ridiculous.

Who said it was easy and quickly done??? It took centuries of propaganda.

It started with the translation of ancient Greek texts from Arabic to European languages. Then continued with Montesquieu creating the term "Byzantine" for eastern Romans and reinterpreting eastern Roman history. Developed with the eventual change of European doctrine from religious dogmas to modernism. They called it as "returning to the roots" after centuries of darkness due to christian dogmas of catholic church. Then it finalized with the French revolution in 1789 and the start of nationalism and realized by the likes of Lord Byron`s romanticism and the appointed rule of Bavarian kings. You know the rest.


Btw, if you say that it`s not possible to create ethnos without facebook and internet then you don't agree with your Greek official claim of Tito`s creation of Macedonian ethnos (the one you guys call as Skopians)???? Am i wrong??? Then you accept that the Macedonians of ROM are really the heir of ancient Macedonians because it`s not possible to create ethnos in Tito`s time???

Curiously waiting your response...

[Voltron]

Who said it was easy and quickly done??? It took centuries of propaganda.

It started with the translation of ancient Greek texts from Arabic to European languages. Then continued with Montesquieu creating the term "Byzantine" for eastern Romans and reinterpreting eastern Roman history. Developed with the eventual change of European doctrine from religious dogmas to modernism. They called it as "returning to the roots" after centuries of darkness due to christian dogmas of catholic church. Then it finalized with the French revolution in 1789 and the start of nationalism and realized by the likes of Lord Byron`s romanticism and the appointed rule of Bavarian kings. You know the rest.

And all the while there were a people living in the same location and speaking the same language of their ancestors. Too bad they couldnt do the same thing in Egypt. As if nobody ever admired the ancient Egyptians.

Btw, if you say that it`s not possible to create ethnos without facebook and internet then you don't agree with your Greek official claim of Tito`s creation of Macedonian ethnos (the one you guys call as Skopians)???? Am i wrong??? Then you accept that the Macedonians of ROM are really the heir of ancient Macedonians because it`s not possible to create ethnos in Tito`s time???

Curiously waiting your response...

Not exactly, the problem with Macedonia is purely political in nature. If anybody can remember how it was during the days of Yugoslavia or even further back you would see that it was a non-issue. This is not a bilateral dispute since this does not only concern Greece, but Bulgaria (does not recognize ethnicity or language), Serbia (does not recognize the church) and of course Greece (does not recognize the name). Regarding the identity part, as far as Greece is concerned it shouldnt even be on the table.

[Onur]

And all the while there were a people living in the same location and speaking the same language of their ancestors. Too bad they couldnt do the same thing in Egypt. As if nobody ever admired the ancient Egyptians.

Go back and read Epirot`s msgs in this thread. It couldn't be done to the Egypt because ancient Egypt suffered the same fate of ancient Greece. All the Egyptian priests of ancient religion has been killed by christian Romans. All their texts has been burned, some temples has been destroyed and drawings, hieroglyphs has been damaged, erased on others.

The difference was, Arabs/Iranians was able to keep ancient Greek texts while everything was lost about ancient Egypt. The muslim Iranian scholars tried so hard to decipher egyptian hieroglyphs in 9th century but they failed. Ancient Egypt rediscovered in 19th century by using Rosetta stone. It was too late anymore. If Arabs/Iranians would be able to preserve Egyptian texts, like they did to Greek ones, maybe the romantiques of enlightenment era would try to resurrect ancient Egypt too, just like they did for modern Greece, who knows!!!


For further addo to my previous post;
It was even the British philhellenes who created and then instructed modern Greek language to you. They created the language institutes and schools to teach modern Greek to the mob in Morea. They even dreamed of teaching ancient Greek to you and even tried that for a while but then they decided that it was an impossible task and it would be enough to eliminate turkism from Romaika and teach it to you. As a result of that, in about two generations, your philhellene creation of neo-athenian tongue became quite different from the Greeks of Istanbul, you know that, right?

[Soldier of Macedon]

They are portraying Albanians as being responsible for everything bad occurred during the last war there. It's more than obvious that the Serbs are just trying to wash their hands with water and saying: 'We are innocent'.

I don't consider either side innocent, I just don't want there to be any misconceptions with regard to the damaged Christian places of worship.

I strongly condemn their vandalism.

Good to hear, as you should.

The monastery of Deçan was previously Catholic. It has been built by the Catholic Albanians of Tivar.

What proof do you have that it was established by Albanians? Is there a record of when this happened?

In the Deçan municipality itself, Albanians constituted always the majority of population.

The Dečani charters from the time of Stephen Uroš III show Albanians to be a tiny minority. Which records from that period refer to Albanians as a majority?

They have absolutly no reason to hide it. That is completely false.

There are plenty of reasons to hide it. Your suggestion in itself is false, naive, and to be honest, quite stupid.

[Voltron]

For further addo to my previous post;
It was even the British philhellenes who created and then instructed modern Greek language to you. They created the language institutes and schools to teach modern Greek to the mob in Morea. They even dreamed of teaching ancient Greek to you and even tried that for a while but then they decided that it was an impossible task and it would be enough to eliminate turkism from Romaika and teach it to you. As a result of that, in about two generations, your philhellene creation of neo-athenian tongue became quite different from the Greeks of Istanbul, you know that, right?

You have got to be kidding. You should write tabloids for a living.

[Risto the Great]

Not exactly, the problem with Macedonia is purely political in nature. If anybody can remember how it was during the days of Yugoslavia or even further back you would see that it was a non-issue. This is not a bilateral dispute since this does not only concern Greece, but Bulgaria (does not recognize ethnicity or language), Serbia (does not recognize the church) and of course Greece (does not recognize the name). Regarding the identity part, as far as Greece is concerned it shouldnt even be on the table.

Let me put my walking stick down for a moment and adjust my hearing aid a little softer. But I do recall a time in the 1980's when Greeks would say Macedonia does not exist. Is this the non-issue you refer to?