Kolokotronis the Albanian

[Voltron]

Let me put my walking stick down for a moment and adjust my hearing aid a little softer. But I do recall a time in the 1980's when Greeks would say Macedonia does not exist. Is this the non-issue you refer to?

Im in my mid thirties Risto, I was a kid back then. But from what I know it wasnt as it is now.

[El Bre]

Im in my mid thirties Risto, I was a kid back then. But from what I know it wasnt as it is now.

Could you clarify what you mean? what wasn't as it is now?

Thanks

[Sputnik]

VOLTRON; I pretty much agree with everything you said, except for the well known position of the "West" creating the Greek ethnos. It really is ridiculous to think that it would be that easy for a couple of Germans, Brits or what have you to create a new ethnos.

No one said anything about easy. Though i did say the west had a clean slate to work with considering (initially)ethnos was of no importance to the locals. It would not have taken a couple of Germans, Brits, to acheive this. Well not ordinary Germans or Brits that you make sound so simple and unlikely. But it was Monarchies (where the three "protecting powers Britain, France and Russia) stipulated in the London Protocol of May 7, 1832, that Greece should be an "independent monarchy under the guarantee of the Powers". Then indeed, the first, a German king was installed by the Great Powers, followed by a royal family with kinship ties to the British and Danish throne, intermarrying, eventually, with both the Russian and the German royal lines. We also have British capitalists , governments of Britain, France and even Tsarist Russia, that are credited, who intervened and put an end to the fighting. They compelled Turkey to accept that the Southern part of Greece should become an independent country.


Why would the west create a Greek ethnos? Well apart from the German King Ludwig 1 philhellenism, (who would have been crushed after his son Otto discovered Albanian was the language spoken on the streets of Athens) You can not have a nation called "Greece" without any Greeks. I'm sure this makes sence to you.

[Vangelovski]

Sputnik,

Without inadvertently suggesting the Greeks may be something that they are not, I would like to make a few comments.

Firstly, you're modernist (which grew out of socialist anti-nationalism) views on ethnonationalism (what you refer to as nationalism) have been largely discredited within wider scholarship. Scholars generally consider ethnonationalism to be a much older phenomenon and some key thinkers in the area consider it to be as old as humanity itself.

Secondly, you should consider how your theories on ethnonationalism impact on Macedonian identity.

[Risto the Great]

Im in my mid thirties Risto, I was a kid back then. But from what I know it wasnt as it is now.

You've left yourself plenty of room to play around with the above statement. I have told you what it definitely was. If this Greek viewpoint has changed since then, it has definitely been a relatively recent event and probably coincided with the renaming of your Micra airport in Solun circa 1993. Now everything Macedonian is Greek apparently.

But please feel free to clarify what you mean by "from what I know it wasnt as it is now".

[Sputnik]

Vangelovski; Firstly, you're modernist (which grew out of socialist anti-nationalism) views on ethnonationalism (what you refer to as nationalism) have been largely discredited within wider scholarship. Scholars generally consider ethnonationalism to be a much older phenomenon and some key thinkers in the area consider it to be as old as humanity itself.

We know what else "Scholars generally consider" regarding the Macedonian Greek issue. Should we not question such theories? sometimes just plain common sense prevails, you don't need a framed certificate/diploma on your desk to make an alternative theory legit.

A perfect example would be this identity issue of Greece in the past. If there was this phenomenon of Albanian "ethnonationalism", there would be traces in the minds of the citizens today in Greece. A ethnos could not be completely wiped of if it was there from the beginning no matter how much brutality or well planned schemes in assimilating the masses endure. Just like the Macedonian ethnos existing today is perfect example.

Ethnonationalism could be a much older phenomenon, But i am talking in the case of Greece.

Vangelovski; Secondly, you should consider how your theories on ethnonationalism impact on Macedonian identity.

(Again, i'll be using common sense here).

Under Ottoman rule, Macedonian possition was much more Precarious than that of the Albanians of Greece. Though life wasn't perfect for the Albanians, they enjoyed the upper class socio-cultural status. (compared to Macedonian pesants ). This forum has a plethora of information of what "Grecian" meant at the time, and who the majority of these Grecians were. What i am getting at is this, keep the masses content, and there would be no reason for anykind of -ism. Especially not "ethnonationalism" right?

Look at todays Macedonians and the (fake) promise of a better life where they would become a upper class socio-cultural status by joining the EU. Ask those believers in this, what they think of their Macedonian Ethnos. If you ask a Macedonian currently reaping what someone in the upper class would ie; Politicians, well paid journalists by Macedonian enemies, former politicians etc, what would their response be towards Macedonian Ethnos.

Going back to the Macedonians during Ottoman rule, all they had is Family, and undisturbed language (with minor additions of Turkish words) culture and identity intact. Would it have been diferent today, if Macedonians lived the lives of these "Grecians"? quite possible.

[Vangelovski]

We know what else "Scholars generally consider" regarding the Macedonian Greek issue. Should we not question such theories? sometimes just plain common sense prevails, you don't need a framed certificate/diploma on your desk to make an alternative theory legit.

A perfect example would be this identity issue of Greece in the past. If there was this phenomenon of Albanian "ethnonationalism", there would be traces in the minds of the citizens today in Greece. A ethnos could not be completely wiped of if it was there from the beginning no matter how much brutality or well planned schemes in assimilating the masses endure. Just like the Macedonian ethnos existing today is perfect example.

Ethnonationalism could be a much older phenomenon, But i am talking in the case of Greece.

(Again, i'll be using common sense here).

Under Ottoman rule, Macedonian possition was much more Precarious than that of the Albanians of Greece. Though life wasn't perfect for the Albanians, they enjoyed the upper class socio-cultural status. (compared to Macedonian pesants ). This forum has a plethora of information of what "Grecian" meant at the time, and who the majority of these Grecians were. What i am getting at is this, keep the masses content, and there would be no reason for anykind of -ism. Especially not "ethnonationalism" right?

Look at todays Macedonians and the (fake) promise of a better life where they would become a upper class socio-cultural status by joining the EU. Ask those believers in this, what they think of their Macedonian Ethnos. If you ask a Macedonian currently reaping what someone in the upper class would ie; Politicians, well paid journalists by Macedonian enemies, former politicians etc, what would their response be towards Macedonian Ethnos.

Going back to the Macedonians during Ottoman rule, all they had is Family, and undisturbed language (with minor additions of Turkish words) culture and identity intact. Would it have been diferent today, if Macedonians lived the lives of these "Grecians"? quite possible.

Sputnik, I see that you are seriously struggling with the concept of ethnonationalism specifically, and individual/collective identity more broadly. As I have better things to do than get into a highly complex debate with someone who does not even have an elementary understanding of the key concepts and issues, I'll leave you on your merry way.

[Voltron]

Could you clarify what you mean? what wasn't as it is now?

Thanks

Just meant that we didnt see disfigurement of neighboring flags with swasitkas on public billboards, hostile rhetoric, etc. Then again today we have technology that allows us to openly express ourselves. So I may stand corrected on this one.

You've left yourself plenty of room to play around with the above statement. I have told you what it definitely was. If this Greek viewpoint has changed since then, it has definitely been a relatively recent event and probably coincided with the renaming of your Micra airport in Solun circa 1993. Now everything Macedonian is Greek apparently.

But please feel free to clarify what you mean by "from what I know it wasnt as it is now".

Ok, so your saying it was just as bad and hostile then it is today. If thats your opinion, then im not in a position to argue. I am referring to our government relations of our countries back then and now, not the ppl.

[Risto the Great]

Ok, so your saying it was just as bad and hostile then it is today. If thats your opinion, then im not in a position to argue. I am referring to our government relations of our countries back then and now, not the ppl.

Back then the Greek government used to send spies out into Macedonian communities to keep track of the people causing disturbances to the Greek myth of ethnic homogeneity. I would say things have eased up quite a bit since then due to external pressures on Greece.

[George S.]

Voltron you must be living in cuckoo land or the twilight zone back in the old days the greeks had spies watching the macedonians at their windows listening to them speaking in macedonian.They even had police going around beating people up for simply being macedonian.They were even jailing people due to their ethnicity.Why because they thought they could get away with it & nobody cared.So don't doubt that these things took place they did.Its one of the many despicable things that took place.

[Sputnik]

VANGELOVSKI; Sputnik, I see that you are seriously struggling with the concept of ethnonationalism specifically, and individual/collective identity more broadly. As I have better things to do than get into a highly complex debate with someone who does not even have an elementary understanding of the key concepts and issues, I'll leave you on your merry way.

Thats fine. Leaving "Ethnonationalism" aside (since i know nothing about). Lets look at something you avoided to respond to.

I can't help but think your response, " As I have better things to do than get into a highly complex debate," was a deliberate sweep it under the carpet job and run for your life, after i replied to your comments about using "Scholars" and " wider scholarship" (that discredited my modernist views). Again we know what else "Scholars generally consider" regarding the Macedonian/Greek issue.

I would like pose to you a number of questions.
When is it OK to automatically accept anything "scholars" generally believe? Only when it suits?

If you accept "wider scholarship" views as a be all and end all, quintessential element, would not this work against the Macedonian cause, considering what is accepted in regards to the Macedonian/Greek issue? As you put to me, you also, should consider how (your example and reliance on "wider scholarship) , would have impact on Macedonian identity.

All the best.

[vojnik]

Sputnik I don't know if I missed this or not. But where are you from and what is your ethnicity?

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.balkanchronicle.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=872:thousands-of-greeks-orthodox-became-muslims-as-soon-as-they-became-adults&catid=27:islam&Itemid=441

So to conclude: "Jamilah Kolocotronis, author and lecturer in Islamic schools, originates (as she states in her curriculum vitae) from the family of Theodoros Kolocotronis, grew up at the United Sates of America with the stories of her grandfather about the Greek revoluti0on of 1821 against the Turks. " When I went to college, I started learning about Islam. I was though, still carrying inside me the suspicion against the Muslim Turks, the people that my ancestor fought for the Greek Independence. It took me four years to convert to Islam. One of the reasons, I think, is that I could not take this decision and talk to my grandfather about it. He died in 1979, and I became a Muslim in 1980."

[Voltron]

Geezus SOM where did you find this ? I guess every nation has its idiots.
Feel sorry for their ancestors.

[Carlin]

1. No wonder the foreign 'observers' confused him (and many others) for an Albanian, as I have already brought this issue up. He was however of Vlach origin.

Theodor Kolokotroni - known as LORD OF THE VLACHS by his contemporaries.

Commander of all insurgent forces in the Peloponnese during the Greek rebellion (1821 - 1828) and a prominent Vlach hero. 6000 Arvanito-Vlachs (Farsherioti) under his command. He was called "Lord of the Vlachs." Great heroes (Vlachs) of the Greek uprising were also: Varnahioti, Sturnari, Gavela, Staiti, Ciara, Caciandoni, etc.

Captain Caciandoni -
One of the leaders of rebels. Ali Pasha imposed a tax which negatively affected the population. Caciandoni was also a victim of these levies. He sold his farm, for that money bought weapons and with his brothers set out to fight against Ali Pasha and his allies. Already in the first battle he proved his prowess and defeated the Turks, at a time when the Greek (in 'geographical' terms) uprising showed poor results. (1805) Caciandoni organized a sizeable Vlach army (sponsored by Russia) and their captains gathered in order to win Preveza. Caciandoni by his ethnic origin was Farsheriot (Arvanito-Vlach).

2. Quote:
Originally Posted by cultea

Odysseus Androutsos was not an Arvanite, neither Theodoros Kolokotronis or Georgios Karaiskakis.

>> True, they were not. But they were Vlachs.

3. Preveza is of 100% Slavic origin no matter how hard one wishes to look for non-Slavic etymology. If this word/verb/term is found in any form in Albanian or any other language it is clear as day it has been borrowed and adapted from Slavonic.