Kolokotronis the Albanian

[Onur]

I was talking about in general, not specifically about the slavic raids to Epirus but i have to agree with you about the mountainous regions. For the equestrian nomads, mountainous areas was only useful for feeding the flocks, funerals and praying to the sky god(s) but not for living unless they were under threat.

Btw, i don't think that they ever raided somewhere without backup from their families. While women was only considered as worthless slaves in Roman society, the women in nomadic society was powerful, equally privileged as men and they were providing spiritual help to their people, as well as food and health service with their knowledge of herbalism.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The story of slavic raiders being a small military regiment is just an assumption and/or a propaganda.

Is that right? Why don't you and Cultea show us all of the references to women and children that apparently accompanied the 'raiders', and prove the assumption wrong?

Btw, i don't think that they ever raided somewhere without backup from their families.

They didn't need the back up of women and children to defeat Roman armies and establish their rule in the Balkans.

If they were small minority then how come they constantly defeated Roman armies? Roman armies was consisted around 20.000-50.000 manpower at that time. If nomads had beaten them, their army should be around this number.

Do you think the Romans had 50,000 soldiers just waiting on the banks of the Danube? They were constantly fighting wars in Western Europe, Northern Africa and Asia. Together with the plague of the 540's, their position was weakened and they weren't able to defend their imperial boundaries as well as they did in previous years. Furthermore, history has shown that numerically inferior armies can defeat larger armies in some circumstances. Use some logic.

What was the population of local people, the places where they have raided??? In that times, only the major capital cities population was above 200.000-300.000, like Rome or Istanbul. Maybe few more important centers like Salonika had like 100.000 population at most.

The way you dismiss the entire countryside is comical, especially given that if there wasn't a significant population in those areas there would be few people working the fields, farms, etc and generating the produce to feed those in the cities.

Mountainous regions in Balkans was desolated in today`s terms.

How do you know this? What are you comparing it to in today's terms?

Already, most of the today`s Balkan cities has been founded during Ottoman reign, after 15th century, with the exception of few centers like Belgrade, Sofia, Salonika, Skopje, while whole of today`s Albania founded during the Turkish reign, including the capital city of Tirana.

Founded? In Macedonia alone the most significant cities (aside from Solun and Skopje which you've already mentioned) such as Lerin, Voden, Kostur, Stip, Bitola, Ohrid and Prilep all predate Ottoman rule. Which cities are you talking about?

While women was only considered as worthless slaves in Roman society, the women in nomadic society was powerful, equally privileged as men and they were providing spiritual help to their people, as well as food and health service with their knowledge of herbalism.

While there may be some truth to this in some cases, you're making a generalisation that can't be taken seriously.

A massive Slavic migration on Epirus can't sustain because their presence is so slight as disappeared with the collapse of Dushan's empire.

It was an invasion. A massive Slavic 'migration' never took place. After the 6th century, the region was a part of the autonomous enclaves that were governed by Slavic-speaking warriors, and later ruled by empires from Bulgaria, Macedonia and Serbia. You're delusional if you think that the Slavic-speaking presence in Epirus was 'slight'.

[Onur]

Why don't you and Cultea show us all of the references to women and children that apparently accompanied the 'raiders', and prove the assumption wrong? They didn't need the back up of women and children to defeat Roman armies and establish their rule in the Balkans.

If you would know the life and habits of equestrian nomads of middle ages, then you wouldn't ask these question to me. I suggest you to watch the documentaries i`ve posted in this forum b4, read some articles about the archeological findings, burials, mummies and read books about the naturalist, shamanistic, pagan people, their spiritual beliefs and the role of women in their society. It doesn't matter which society, the books about Goths, Saxons, Celts, Vikings, Huns, early Slavs are OK cuz they have pretty similar lifestyle.

Founded? In Macedonia alone the most significant cities (aside from Solun and Skopje which you've already mentioned) such as Lerin, Voden, Kostur, Stip, Bitola, Ohrid and Prilep all predate Ottoman rule. Which cities are you talking about?

If you are talking about the ancient ruins in these cities then i gotta remind you that these cities has been desolated due to wars, plague and other diseases. The ancient ruins has been buried underground and the cities was no more there for centuries. Most of these cities has been revived and founded again after 15th century and most of them has been populated in 16th century due to massive population increase at that time. After 16th century, the population of Balkans has been doubled quickly and overall lifetime increased due to easy accessibility and diversity of food and also due to pax-Ottomana of that era. This leaded to an enlargement of inhabitable territories and the creation of new villages, cities.

The proof for that is the appearance of Anatolian Turkish food varieties in Balkan cuisine after 15th century. Also go back to your own post;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=112352&postcount=270

Check the PDF there, the Turkish originated words for various vegetables and fruits exists not only in Albanian but in all Balkan languages. It`s because these vegetables, fruits and the all the meals prepared with these, has been brought by the Turks from Anatolia and introduced to the Balkan cuisine after 15th century.

[julie]

most of the today`s Balkan cities has been founded during Ottoman reign, after 15th century, with the exception of few centers l

ancient ruins has been buried underground and the cities was no more there for centuries. Most of these cities has been revived and founded again after 15th century

Onur
These 2 generalisations I am hoping you are not speaking of Macedonia??
you are jesting!
Many towns have been populated going back to ancient times!
The 15th century Ottoman revival you speak of are whitewashing and destroying many of the churches murals, St Sophia Ohrid is a good example , painting over the religious murals centuries old, and placing ugly minarets which have been removed! By desecrating the churches as an example, you are stating that Ottomans founded the cities and towns? Churches built not by a minority of people but that date back over a thousand years? eg sveti mala Kliment ohridski 9th century church?

[Epirot]

, St Sophia Ohrid is a good example , painting over the religious murals centuries old, and placing ugly minarets which have been removed!

julie, if the beauty of civilization is to be found in Orthodox churches or Muslim minarets, then I am almost sure that human civilization has produced nothing in terms of value.

Do not take this reply as an assault toward the religions, but Balkans culture is a treasure in itself and other influences had just downplay that glory.

I do not know what was the treatment of orthodox temples in Macedonia by the Ottomans, but I assure you that in Kosova Orthodox churches were never destroyed, pillaged or looted because Ottoman authorities with the cooperation of Albanians guarded them and kept them safe!

[julie]

Many of our beautiful churches were whitewashed by the Ottomans, we have Italian experts trying to restore them, a painstaking process
The same whitewashing in Haga Sophia in Turkey we witnessed with hubby and the slow and difficult task of experts trying to bring them back
Unfortunately the Macedonians under the hand of the Ottoman Turk were unable to stop that desecration
I used the churches as an example to Onur's post implying they founded towns during the 15th century in Macedonia , where many churches as an example , in Ohrid were built hundreds of years beforehand

[Soldier of Macedon]

If you would know the life and habits of equestrian nomads of middle ages, then you wouldn't ask these question to me. I suggest you to watch the documentaries i`ve posted in this forum b4, read some articles about the archeological findings, burials, mummies and read books about the naturalist, shamanistic, pagan people, their spiritual beliefs and the role of women in their society. It doesn't matter which society, the books about Goths, Saxons, Celts, Vikings, Huns, early Slavs are OK cuz they have pretty similar lifestyle.

Like I said, show me references to women and children 'backing up' Slavic-speaking warriors during their raids and rebellions against the Romans. As for the role of women in ancient societies, there may be some examples of pagan cultures where they are equally privileged as men, but I doubt that was the norm for most peoples and classes of peoples. Just like I doubt all women in Roman society were "only considered as worthless slaves".

If you are talking about the ancient ruins in these cities then i gotta remind you that these cities has been desolated due to wars, plague and other diseases.

Do you think they remained as ancient ruins throughout the whole Roman/East Roman period and were only re-founded by the Ottomans? Be serious mate.

Most of these cities has been revived and founded again after 15th century and most of them has been populated in 16th century due to massive population increase at that time.

Again I will ask, which cities are you talking about?

After 16th century, the population of Balkans has been doubled quickly and overall lifetime increased due to easy accessibility and diversity of food and also due to pax-Ottomana of that era. This leaded to an enlargement of inhabitable territories and the creation of new villages, cities.

Are you suggesting that food in the Balkans wasn't easily accessible before the Ottomans? How did you come to that conclusion? Because the Turks introduced some new foods to them? How were Balkan peoples living for thousands of years before the Ottomans?

Check the PDF there, the Turkish originated words for various vegetables and fruits exists not only in Albanian but in all Balkan languages.

Over 50% of Albanian vocabulary is non-Albanian, so you can't compare them to other Balkan langauges like Macedonian. Exactly which fruit and vegetable names are you referring to where it concerns Macedonian? I don't doubt that there may be some, but to me, it is more the names of certain dishes rather than the actual ingredients which are of Turkish (or Persian/Arabic by way of Turkish) origin.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I do not know what was the treatment of orthodox temples in Macedonia by the Ottomans, but I assure you that in Kosova Orthodox churches were never destroyed, pillaged or looted because Ottoman authorities with the cooperation of Albanians guarded them and kept them safe!

I think I recall an example of some Albanian bey protecting an Orthodox shrine or something along those lines, but not sure where or how common-place that was. Do you have any references?

[Epirot]

I think I recall an example of some Albanian bey protecting an Orthodox shrine or something along those lines

You just raised a good topic. It's very true that Albanian beys provided security to the Orthodox shrines in Kosova. Edith Durham who traveled throughout Kosova, wrote in her memoirs that Monastery of Deçan was guarded by Albanian nizams (most of them, if not all, were Muslim Albanians).

The monastery, which lies about 1500 feet above sea-level, appeared as a white church surrounded by outbuildings at the entrance of a magnificently wooded valley, through which flows a small river, the Dechanski Bistritza, the one slope rich with stately chestnuts and the other fir-clad. Robbed of its broad lands, which have been swooped on by the Albanians, who at the time of my visit made further progress up the valley impossible, it lies precariously on the bloody edge of things, and only the wonderful white marble church tells of its former glory. It was being used as a military outpost, and twenty-five Nizams and an officer were quartered on the monastery, which had also a guard of its own, a set of Mohammedan Albanians, who were said to be very loyal. They looked like a wild-beast show, spoke nothing but Albanian, had the most elegant manners, and I was never allowed outside the monastery gate without a couple of them. (Through the Land of the Serb, M.E. Durham 1904, London)

http://www.kosovo.net/edecani.html

Here's an original photo:




While this one I picked up from a Serbian page:

Originally posted by SoM

but not sure where or how common-place that was. Do you have any references?

The practice of guarding the Orthodox shrines was very common at least in Kosova. The guard-men were usually called as 'vojvodë' and their primarily function was to provide security of the monasteries and monks.

In a number of other important Orthodox monasteries in Kosova (Deçan, Deviç and the patrarchate of Peja) protection was formalized in the institution of the so-called manastirske vojvode (Serbian) or vojvodat e kishës (Albanian), i.e. monastery ‘dukes’ or guards. They were provided by powerful Muslim Albanian clans who posted one of their members in the monastery to guard it against outside attacks, and in return they received payments or certain privileges. This has probably saved these sanctuaries from destruction, especially in times of war and upheaval.

http://www.zeriyt.com/orthodox-monas...-t87593.0.html

With my little knowledge in Serbian, I guess it say Zhujë Veseli, a vojvod of Monastery of Pejë.


A crowd of Orthodox Albanians around Deçani's church


An Albanian armed guard protecting one of Orthodox shrines.

“At Peć, as at nearby Dećani and elsewhere, the Albanian tribesmen agreed to consider it an honor to guard the Christian holy places, and to appoint one of their number as the “chieftain” (vojvoda, which also means “Duke”)… Ramë Nikçi is the latest in this long line of Albanian Muslim vojvodë of the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate”[14].

http://www.zeriyt.com/orthodox-monasteries-in-kosova-are-albanian-heritage-t87593.0.html

P.S: I forgot to bookmark an important article which deals with the practice of 'vojvodi' in Kosova. It stated that a young Albanian "vojvod" killed one of his relatives during the time he was serving as protector of the church. A relative of him mocked one of the church's students but he was immediately killed by the vojvod.

[vojnik]

From what I am aware of most of the words in the Turkish language are borrowed from Persian and others from Arabic.

[Onur]

Julie, all the christians and their private places, including churches had their own status in Ottoman era and the churches mostly preserved and protected. As Epirot gave examples here, the situation in Anatolia was no different. Despite all the quarrels between Turks and Armenians, most of the Armenian churches in eastern Anatolia are still intact today, except the ones collapsed due to earthquakes or wars.

Also, try to think the opposite case. As i posted in forum several times b4, there was about ~4000 important, big buildings from Ottoman era in today`s Greece. Where are they now? Most of the mosques in Greece was done by the Albanian muslims in there but Greeks destroyed all of them and some converted as church and still serves as such in Salonika. There are only few of them out of ~4000 in Greece anymore.

Serbia is worst. There is not even single Ottoman era monument in there. It was preserved in Bosnia but Serbs purposely destroyed the most in Bosnian war, including the famous Mostar bridge in 1990s. The situation is no different In whole middle-east either but Arabs destroyed Turkish buildings cuz they have no culture, but in Balkans, Serbs and Greeks destroyed it all because they were the enemies of culture.


So, while you are asking about few whitewashed churches, we are mourning about the destruction of 10.000+ ~600 year old monuments in whole Balkans (!!!) and now, today`s idiot Greeks asking to me here like "where is Ottoman era, i cant see anything but 600 years of emptiness".

Hopefully, the situation of these monuments in Macedonia is better than the rest and quite interestingly, Hungary protects the remaining Turkish buildings and they even use the Ottoman era thermal hot water health complex and hamams today.

Btw, can you explain what you mean by saying "whitewashed"?? Are these places converted to mosques and frescoes painted over??? or deliberately damaged? and do you know when? how many churches in that case?


P.S: Epirot, your example from Kosovo was a policy of the authority in Istanbul, as you can guess that wasn't specific to Kosovo only.

[Epirot]

Onur you're absolutely right! Actually, I do criticize many things in Ottoman empire, but I accept that the religious tolerance was just perfect during all the time. Noel Malcolm has authored two capital histories, one for Kosova and the other one for Bosnia & Herzegovina. He stresses out that Ottoman empire had a good tradition in regards with the peaceful co-existence between different religions. According to him, the hostility between Christians and Muslims begun in the moment when Russia got involved in Balkans and Caucasus. The Russians expelled thousands of Circassians from their native lands and all of them fled in the European part of Ottoman empire. The Circassians were more disposed to revenge against native Christians because of their bad experience with the Russians. However, the mutual hostility ceased. But, everything became worst when Balkans expansionist states begun their invasion in Ottoman empire (the period of Balkans wars). Most of mosques were either desecrated or destroyed. Even the Catholic churches were partially damaged. Perhaps the best analysis can be found on Mark Mazower's book "Salonica, City of Ghosts: Christians, Muslims and Jews". When Greece captured Salonica, it ruined all the mosques and synagogues. That's their tolerance in regard with the other religions.

I said even earlier that I've no precise knowledge about the treatment of Orthodox churches in Macedonia. Maybe julie is right about the frescoes being whitewashed, but this does not mean that churches were desecrated in any way. It should be noted that when Byzantine Christians took the control of our peninsula they erased all of pagan shrines, symbols and objects. Greece is a perfect example for that.

[julie]

Onur I have photographs, a prime one is St Sophia in Ohrid,
The murals painted over in white paint, the minarets converting the cathedral have now thankfully been removed and experts are trying to remove the paint
CHurches were looted from their artifacts and religious icons, other than ones the priests and monks had hidden
We witnessed icons for sale in Istanbul Grand Bazaar! In the antique section
I am not discussing the burning of churches in Aegean Macedonia Onur, and giving you an example of the disrespect of the Ottomans whom you state founded many towns in the Republic of Macedonia in the 15th century, I guess its akin to the stealing of the holy relics which are now on display in Topaki Palace in Istanbul
I attended countless churches throughout Macedonia and the Ottomans habitually painted the murals hundreds of years old and pillaged the old icons and relics from the churches
You cannot deny that, when you have Haga Sophia in Istanbul being restored back to a christian church on the order of Ataturk himself! Minarets are still there. Your blue mosque was modelled on St Sophia (am unsure of why its a wonder when Haga Sophia is amazing, minarets aside)
By white washing I mean they have been painted over, and crosses and altars removed (once again FOR SALE - how can religious old artifacts that belonged in our churches be allowed to be sold in back rooms in your antique markets?)
Once again I have photographs, i dont have the internet bandwith and my husband has these backed up as well, we were apalled to see looted items for sale, I know muslims place no significance on our holy artifacts, however, these do not belong in back rooms, but should be given back to our churches,
And I disagree with you the Ottomans founded the towns in the 15th century which is why I used the churches as an example, hundreds of years old throughout Macedonia, of which there are literally hundreds of them. The murals were not painted by rats from plagues Onur, seriously, sometimes you need to take a step back

[Epirot]

P.S: Epirot, your example from Kosovo was a policy of the authority in Istanbul, as you can guess that wasn't specific to Kosovo only.

I object that! The practice of Albanian guard-men (alb. vojvodët e kishës) providing the security of the monasteries was not introduced from Ottomans. The Albanian tribesmen made a special agreement with the clerics of a monastery about the security issue. All I want to clarify is that the practice of "vojvodi" is an Albanian specific, and I've not yet found any proof that this has been practiced elsewhere. Only the "nizams" were ordered by Instambul authorities to provide security in times of general upheavals. For instance, when Russian consul pays a visit in Deçan, Ottomans engaged a squadron of nizams to protect him. There is a difference between these two practices!

[Onur]

Julie, you are talking about something else. I am talking about the religious tolerance and the preservation policy of christianity of Ottoman era but you are talking about thievery, individual crimes and illegal antique market.


I am gonna tell you one last thing about that;

You know the events in Macedonia whenever Albanians constructs new mosques or Macedonians constructs new churches. This is a good example of difference between Ottoman era and today`s mentality, level of tolerance;

As i said, Serbs destroyed everything we did there and i found an incomplete list of Serbian monasteries and churches;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian_Orthodox_monasteries

Click here and see the dates of foundation/construction. About half of the Serbian churches in the list (about ~100 in the link) constructed in Ottoman era, by the allowance and funding of Ottoman authorities (probably Bosnian and Albanian officers in there). It was also a bosnian man, Mehmed Sokolovic who restored Serbian patriarchy in 16th century. What Bosnians took in turn? Genocide and destruction (!!!)

I am sure that the situation is similar in Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, Macedonia. About half of the churches in these places has either been founded or later restored during Ottoman era. There are many churches in Balkans restored by Mimar Sinan alone [including Hagia Sophia] and later by other Turkish architects. I saw Sofia 2 years ago and you saw Istanbul this summer. There is only one mosque still remains in Sofia [the one which constantly gets harassed by the ATAKA freaks]. Most likely 100s of buildings has been destroyed in there, including hamams, schools, hospitals etc. The city was pure ugliness with many communist era buildings all around the place. I am sure Sofia would look much better today if they would preserve and restore these, as we do in Istanbul and all over Turkey.

I can say that the Balkans never ever seen the level of religious tolerance neither before [bogomil and arian massacres] nor after the Ottoman era and probably never will in the future. Few churches out of 1000s has been whitewashed??? Well, i am sorry, sad to hear that but who will say sorry to us for the 10.000+ destroyed Ottoman era monuments all around the Balkans???


P.S: You are right Epirot, the vojvodis was freemen but they were also working together with the regular forces. So, that might be their own decision as you said.