Kolokotronis the Albanian

[Epirot]

Odysseus Androutsos was not an Arvanite, neither Theodoros Kolokotronis or Georgios Karaiskakis.

Its very pointless to keep a dialogue with you when most of time you're deliberately trying to downplay the significance of revolutionary heroes by hiding their true ethnicity. Odysseus Androutsos was of course an Albanian who served in Ali Pasha's army. Both Finlay and Gordon share the belief that it was from Ali at Yannina that Odysseus Androutsos had learned to combine the worst vices of Albanians and Greeks. If you are not fully convinced by our impartial sources, then take the following excerpt written by a Greek like you

Odysseus Androutsos (1790–1825): Greco-Albanian fighter in the Greek Revolution, from Ithaca, like his Homeric namesake. Engonopoulos calls him “one of the foremost figures in world history.

Surrealism in Greece: an anthology,p. 48, Nikos Stabakis - 2008

I guess Stabakis's speculation that he was Greco-Albanian derives from his ignorance that Preveza was Greek at that time! But, both of his parents were Albanian.

[cultea]

As for Karaskaikis Finlay believed he was a gypsy.

He did? Maybe he had an exclusive about Karaiskakis’ illegitimate father.

And the evidence for Kolokotroni being an Albanian are all in this topic. I would ask people to review from page one and onward again.

The “evidence” of him being tall was even more amazing.

Its very pointless to keep a dialogue with you when most of time you're deliberately trying to downplay the significance of revolutionary heroes by hiding their true ethnicity. Odysseus Androutsos was of course an Albanian who served in Ali Pasha's army. Both Finlay and Gordon share the belief that it was from Ali at Yannina that Odysseus Androutsos had learned to combine the worst vices of Albanians and Greeks.

He was “of course” an Albanian? How come? Do you now mean he became Albanian by association?
By the way, can you submit your Finlays and Gordons? You too, TrueMacedonian.

If you are not fully convinced by our impartial sources, then take the following excerpt written by a Greek like you. I guess Stabakis's speculation that he was Greco-Albanian derives from his ignorance that Preveza was Greek at that time! But, both of his parents were Albanian.

Both Nikos Stabakis and the specific book are totally irrelevant to the topic (he’s a film historian speaking about… surrealism in Greek poetry and painting) so his "speculation" comes probably from misinformation. I hope your phrase about Preveza is ironic. Whose parents were Albanians?

[Epirot]

Both Nikos Stabakis and the specific book are totally irrelevant to the topic (he’s a film historian speaking about… surrealism in Greek poetry and painting) so his "speculation" comes probably from misinformation. I hope your phrase about Preveza is ironic. Whose parents were Albanians?

Now you're jumping from one thing to other. Preveza was Albanian, either ethnically and geographically. I don't even know why do you find this as ironic? But it's ok...in your historical books you got the impression that Preveza was Greek. Let me know you with some facts ignored by your official history:

The etymology of 'Preveza' is thought to derive from the old Albanian word prevëzë-za, that means transportation (this was suggested by Petros Fourikis and Konstantinos Amantos). See more: Petros Fourikis: "Nikopolis Preveza" first edition, Athens 1930.

Even your beloved Hammond is compelled to admit that etymology:

The name is probably from the Albanian word preve'ze, meaning 'the crossing place', and the place may have been founded by Albanians who moved down the coast and entered Acarnania.

Epirus: the geography, the ancient remains, the history and topography of Epirus and adjacent areas, Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, Clarendon P., 1967, p. 46

[Soldier of Macedon]

The etymology of 'Preveza' is thought to derive from the old Albanian word prevëzë-za, that means transportation.........probably from the Albanian word preve'ze, meaning 'the crossing place'.........

Both the placename and the actual word itself may come from 'prevoza', which can mean 'transport' in all Slavic languages.

[Epirot]

Both the placename and the actual word itself may come from 'prevoza', which can mean 'transport' in all Slavic languages.

Actually this has been once proposed. Here what I got on Wiki article about Preveza:

It might come from the old Slavic word perevoz meaning "crossing, passage" (Diogenes Charitonos and Fyodor Uspeski) or

from the old Albanian word prevëzë-za, that means transportation (Petros Fourikis and Konstantinos Amantos),

or from the Latin word prevesione, that means sustenance (victuals) (Max Vasmer, Peter Schustall, Johannes Conter)

My hesitation to admit the first possibility is because Slavic traces are barely to be found in Epirus (I am not saying that Slavs never entered in Epirus). The southern portion of Epirus (its bay) was always a key strategic point and many rulers were eager to put under control it. The Albanian barons waged continuous wars against Venetian and Franc rulers. But in the end, southern Epirus was part of southern Albanian principalities up to the Ottoman period. So Albanians were well-established in southern Epirus, so that is why it seem more plausible that Preveza may have been initially an Albanian name (in the old Albanian "prevëzë" means exactly 'crossing place' in the sense the port of Preveza served as a trampoline point to pass in Acarnania). With the collapse of Dushan's empire, Slavic aristocracies were weak and could not hold their positions in Epirus.

[Soldier of Macedon]

My hesitation to admit the first possibility is because Slavic traces are barely to be found in Epirus.....

Not sure about today, but the opposite is true when the placename was first recorded. And even if it was named by Albanians, the word itself looks like a loan from Slavic languages.

[TrueMacedonian]

Actually this has been once proposed. Here what I got on Wiki article about Preveza:



My hesitation to admit the first possibility is because Slavic traces are barely to be found in Epirus (I am not saying that Slavs never entered in Epirus). The southern portion of Epirus (its bay) was always a key strategic point and many rulers were eager to put under control it. The Albanian barons waged continuous wars against Venetian and Franc rulers. But in the end, southern Epirus was part of southern Albanian principalities up to the Ottoman period. So Albanians were well-established in southern Epirus, so that is why it seem more plausible that Preveza may have been initially an Albanian name (in the old Albanian "prevëzë" means exactly 'crossing place' in the sense the port of Preveza served as a trampoline point to pass in Acarnania). With the collapse of Dushan's empire, Slavic aristocracies were weak and could not hold their positions in Epirus.

According to Nicholas Hammond alot of Epirus was "Slavic". Epirus also had a very large Vlach population.

[Epirot]

According to Nicholas Hammond alot of Epirus was "Slavic". Epirus also had a very large Vlach population.

TM, to which book of Hammond are you referring to? I have Hammond's "Migrations and invasions in Greece and adjacent areas" and I've read just partially it because of my scanty time. B. Osswald, a tireless researcher has done a good work on medieval Epirus and he stated that Slavs did not create any compact settlement in Epirus because there is a lack of sources for their presence. He admits that Slavs might have been settled in Epirus, but in the eve of 13 century, if not before, they've been completely assimilated. Whereas, the Vlachs presence is more attested and due to their nomadic affinity, Vlachs who were always keen for new pastures, spread in a great extent in certain portion of Epirus. In the XIX century, their presence was mainly concentrated around Janina and across Pindus mountains. They were the first who became heavily Hellenized in Epirus. The noteworthy French cartographer, G. Lejean in his map on 1861 colored Epirus as Albanian, while just a portion of it as Vlach:

[Soldier of Macedon]

He admits that Slavs might have been settled in Epirus, but in the eve of 13 century, if not before, they've been completely assimilated.

Assimilated by whom? And who did the 'Slavs' integrate with upon reaching Epirus?

.........Slavs did not create any compact settlement in Epirus because there is a lack of sources for their presence.

What kind of sources? Placenames? How many recorded Albanian placenames in the Balkans during the 13th century and prior? Can you name any?

[Epirot]

Assimilated by whom? And who did the 'Slavs' integrate with upon reaching Epirus?

Douglas Dakin in his book 'The Greek struggle for independence' stated that Slavic invasions in Greece were primarily military inroads, which according to him, means that there was no Slavic migration of a great scale. That's why Slavs could not retain their identity and were assimilated in Greeks, adopting the language of Church, etc. The Albanian migration in Greece was quite different: Albanians arrived with their families, found compact villages and preserved to a remarkable degree their ancestral language. The core of Fallmerayer thesis was that Greece has been captured by Slavs who in turn were assimilated by Albanians. We can guess the same to happen in Epirus. Here Albanians as descendants of old Epirotes were well-established. The ephemeral Slavic military elites were easily absorbed by Albanians, and during all the time, Slavs were of minor importance in Epirus. All ethnographic accounts and maps of 18th and 19th century point out that Albanians prevailed numerically among all others.

What kind of sources? Placenames? How many recorded Albanian placenames in the Balkans during the 13th century and prior? Can you name any?

You may find a lot of answers in the article of Osswald:

http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf

[cultea]

We can guess the same to happen in Epirus. Here Albanians as descendants of old Epirotes were well-established. The ephemeral Slavic military elites were easily absorbed by Albanians, and during all the time, Slavs were of minor importance in Epirus. All ethnographic accounts and maps of 18th and 19th century point out that Albanians prevailed numerically among all others.

In Epirus? In Greece? Which "all" accounts and maps?
Actually the link you just posted says different (speaks of Greek majority in Epirus, see Conclusions section at the end).
A previous source you gave spoke of 15% Arvanites (within 1830s Greece), but you forgot to mention this detail. Then you said Arvanites were 1/3 in Thessaly but posted a map (post#38) where there are none.
By the way, Slavs haven't been solely raiders. In (at least) one of the six surges of Thessaloniki by Avars/Slavs/Avaro-Slavs it is mentioned that their women and children had camped and waited outside the walls of the city during the battles.

[Epirot]

In Epirus? In Greece?

Please, see my previous post. I was referring to Epirus. You Greeks are professionals in the art of derailing threads.

Originally posted by cultea

Which "all" accounts

You're challenging my conclusion. Well, let us face with the light of these documents:

It was probably about this time that the Albanian name was extended to all those mountaineers of Illyricum and Epirus, who were united by community of language and manners ; and, as it should seem, they constituted a separate and independent community, which formed alliances at will with the Greek emperors, the Franks, or the despots of Epirus.

The Penny cyclopædia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful ..., Volume, George Long, Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge (Great Britain

As regards Epirus, there was another reason, perhaps, that nearly the whole of its population is now Albanian;

The Eclectic magazine: foreign literature, Volume 58
By John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell

The life of Ali Pacha, of Jannina: late vizier of Epirus, surnamed Aslan...by Alph. de Beauchamp, page 21, 1823




The scanned images I got from "rex362" at "illyria.proboards.com"

Originally posted by cultea

maps?

How many do you want, buddy?






























O sir Bellin why do you put the name of Albania next to the Gulf of Arta?! Are you intentionally ignoring the North Epirus which is mainly populated by Albanians...oh sorry for my expression, by Albanized Hellenes? Therefore you have to correct your map by putting the boundary between Greece & Albania at least at Shkumbin river!

Originally posted by cultea

By the way, Slavs haven't been solely raiders. In (at least) one of the six surges of Thessaloniki by Avars/Slavs/Avaro-Slavs it is mentioned that their women and children had camped and waited outside the walls of the city during the battles.

Yes but you seem to ignore a small detail in my post. I was referring to Douglas Dakin's book. I do not much things about Thessaloniki and its environs but as far as Epirus is concerned, I am entirely certain that Slavs passed in Epirus just like military riders and could only establish themselves as barons in the time of Dushan's empire. Their rule lasted not long.

[Epirot]

O Albanians what are you doing in Janina, the capital of Albania? I even thought that Janina was one of the purest Greek city in Balkans

cultea are you that stupid as to try with an old riffle to handle a total attack from a B-52 bomber?



and I am not sure if your maggotsontheweb can give any substantial aid. Or, maybe I am wrong. Last time I heard they are preparing their air-force against us:


Kapetan Donkey & Andreas Kyropoulos

[Onur]

By the way, Slavs haven't been solely raiders. In (at least) one of the six surges of Thessaloniki by Avars/Slavs/Avaro-Slavs it is mentioned that their women and children had camped and waited outside the walls of the city during the battles.

Thats true. The story of slavic raiders being a small military regiment is just an assumption and/or a propaganda.

All the nomadic equestrian people in the middle ages, including all the Hunnic and Germanic tribes was traveling along with their families, even when they raid somewhere. Their families behind them, was dealing with sheep flocks, providing food for the men at the war field. They had no giant buildings except few castles for the khans/kings. Their women also had much more privileged role in their society unlike Romans. Some women was joining raids too.

I ask these questions to anyone who claims that they were just a small military regiment. These questions are also valid for Bulgars who came to Balkans;

• If they were small minority then how come they constantly defeated Roman armies? Roman armies was consisted around 20.000-50.000 manpower at that time. If nomads had beaten them, their army should be around this number. Add their families, this makes about ~50.000+ people for single raid.

• What was the population of local people, the places where they have raided??? In that times, only the major capital cities population was above 200.000-300.000, like Rome or Istanbul. Maybe few more important centers like Salonika had like 100.000 population at most. Mountainous regions in Balkans was desolated in today`s terms. Already, most of the today`s Balkan cities has been founded during Ottoman reign, after 15th century, with the exception of few centers like Belgrade, Sofia, Salonika, Skopje, while whole of today`s Albania founded during the Turkish reign, including the capital city of Tirana.

For example, when Ottoman empire conquered Istanbul, there was only ~40.000 people in whole city and it`s estimated like ~10.000 already left the city shortly b4 the war. So, this makes that Istanbul`s population in 1450 around ~50.000 people.

[Epirot]

The story of slavic raiders being a small military regiment is just an assumption and/or a propaganda.
.

A massive Slavic migration on Epirus can't sustain because their presence is so slight as disappeared with the collapse of Dushan's empire.

If they were small minority then how come they constantly defeated Roman armies?

You're right at least theoretically, but however there are some cases with provide the contrary. For instance, Goths were just military raiders when they firstly entered within Roman Empire's territory. At the beginning they were established into region of Scythia, which is why they were often confounded with the Scythians. Then they harrased Balkans only as raiders. Later on, when they were allowed to settle in North Western Balkans by the permission of Roman Emperor, they sporadically made incursions depth in Moesia and Thrace again as military raiders. The largest part of Goths (non-soldiers) did not followed the army, at least some of the written sources I had read, suggest so. I assume that this paradigm can also explain the case of Epirus during the Slavic migration. Slavs might have been established in adjacent regions, like southern Macedonia and from there made short incursions toward Epirus. We can't simply ignore the very fact that Epirus and its mountainous nature hardly attracted Slavs who were more interested in lowlands rather than highlands.