Albanians in Greece

[George S.]

Epirot thanks for supplying this stuff it's important to show what the greeks are upto & still doing it.It's bad enough being forced into assimmilation but not to recognize your human rights is nothing short of atrocius.Is there anywhere apart from greece that has to be the worst case scenario of what it's doing & denying people's human rights.

[Epirot]

Ethnic Albanians in Greece

I've the honor to present a well-documented study where the Albanians of Greece are studied thoroughly. The summary has been written by experts of Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Turkey (published in Ankara, on 1999).

You may think that this material is biased since it's written by Turkish officials, however, the details given here are treated neutrally and are supported even by western sources who confirm the same.

Nice reading!

[Frank]

There is no direct link to an Illyrian or another Paleo-Balkan heritage. You've shown nothing credible on any of the other threads Epirot

I would put that In emphasis we have been through this discussion before and nothing posted has really been convincing.

Again Albanians regarding themselves as such, which is a Historical fact proves nothing beyond the desire to prove a lineage to the past and the to expand territorially, Albanians time in the Sun was very recently the Kosovo exercise then before that the Formation of the Prizren League with a very notable Nazi collaborator and Support, Tetovo still remains the heart of it

[Soldier of Macedon]

Kukuzel, do you mind translating the above in english?

[Јован Кукузел]

Potekloto na Majka Tereza.
Podolu spodeluvam eden tekst na albanski jazik objaven vo nekolku albanski vesnici od Aurel Plasari, direktor na Nacionalnata Bibloteka na Albanija, koj go podrzuva mislenjeto deka Majka Tereza, majka mu ja imashe katolicka albanka dodeka tatko mu vlav od familijata Bojaxhi.

Origjina e nene Terezes
Me poshte do te sjell nje artikull te Aurel Plasarit, drejtor i Bibliotekes Kombetare, i cili mbeshtet mendimin se Nene Tereza kishte te emen katolike shqiptare, kurse te atin shqiptar-vllah nga familja vllahe e Bojaxhinjve.
Me pas do sjell kundershtimet dhe reagimet e skandalizuara te disa gazetareve shqiptare.

Bojaxhitė e nėnė Terezės


nga dr. Aurel PLASARI


“Travestķ elitash” e quante para do kohe nė shtyp njė kolegu ynė fushatėn kinse-nacionaliste pėr mbrojen me ēdo kusht tė “shqiptarėsisė” sė tė misionares sė madhe tė krishterė Nėnė Tereza. Pėrfytyroni tani se ē’mund tė ndodhė kur ta dojė rasti qė nė kėtė spektakėl e sipėr tė kesh pėr duarsh njė punim ende tė papėrfunduar pėr familjet e mėdha voskopojare dhe “voskopjarėt e mėdhenj”: Kavaliotėt, Sinat, Shagunat, Dumbat, Gondut, Bellot, Qopekat, Ballaurėt/Vallaurėt, Fundot etj.; ndėr to edhe familja Bojaxhi.
Bojaxhitė qenė dhe janė njė familje nė zė aromane (angl. Aromanians), e pėrhapur nė disa vise tė Ballkanit, si dhe pėrtej tij, nė degė tė ndryshme. Pėrfaqėsuesi mė nė zė i Bojaxhive mbahet historikisht Mihail G. Bojaxhi (Boiagi), me tė cilin llogaritet tė fillojė historia moderne e aromanėve. Sė toku me tjetrin filolog aroman Gjorgje Kosta Roza, me tė cilin vepruan nė dy dhjetėvjeēarėt e parė tė shek. XIX, ai u bė bashkėthemelues i teorisė sė “latinitetit” tė aromanėve nė Ballkan. Qė tė dy punuan nė qytetet e Perandorisė sė Habsburgėve, por qenė me prejardhje voskopojare. Sa i pėrket vendlindjes sė Mihail G. Bojaxhiut, opinionet ndahen dysh: Max Peyfuss-i mendon qė ai tė ishte lindur nė Budė mė 1780 (Die Druckerei von Moschopolis, 26), ndėrsa Candroveanu e shėnon Bojaxhiun tė lindur nė Voskopojė mė 1770 (Antologie de proza aromana, 195).
Duke vijuar traditėn e shkollės filologjike tė Voskopojės, pėruruar nė gjysmėn e dytė tė shek. XVIII, Mihail G. Bojaxhiu botoi tė parėn gramatikė tė aromanishtes (Gramatica romana sau macedo-romana, 1818) tė shoqėruar edhe me pėrkthimet greqishte dhe rumanishte. Ai hartoi edhe njė gramatikė tė bullgarishtes dhe njė tė serbishtes, si dhe njė libėr mėsimi tė greqishtes, duke dhėnė pjesėn e vet tė ndihmės nė standardizimin e kėtyre gjuhėve. Bindja e tij prej poligloti nė pluralitetin gjuhėsor e shtynte tė nėnvizonte: “Ēdo gjuhė ėshtė njė hipostazė e shpirtit njerėzor; sa mė shumė gjuhė tė nxėjė njė njeri, aq mė shumė gjėra ai di. Njeriu nuk mund t’i fitojė tė gjitha dijet vetėm nga njė gjuhė e vetme, edhe sikur ajo gjuhė tė jetė mė e pėrkryera nė botė. Tė kėmbėngulėsh mbi njė gjuhė tė vetme ėshtė njėherėsh kotėsi dhe marrėzi nga pikėpamja praktike” (Gramatica, X).
Degė tė ndryshme tė familjes Bojaxhi u pėrhapėn jo vetėm nė qytetet e mėdha habsburgjike (Vjenė, Budė, Pest etj.), por edhe nė qytete tė Ballkanit, kėshtu edhe nė Shkup. Nė periudhėn e Perandorisė osmane Shkupi paraqitej si qytet etnikisht i pėrzier: bashkėjetonin aty shqiptarė, aromanė (vllehė), maqedonė dhe njė bashkėsi e vogėl familjesh hebreje. Kėtė situatė pėrzierjeje e pati ndeshur qysh nė shek. XIII rabini udhėtar nga Spanja Benjamin i Tudelės; po kėtė regjistronte nė shek. XIX Ami Bué-ja; dhe po kjo situatė, me ndryshimet e kuptueshme nė tė mirė tė bashkėsive maqedone e shqiptare, rezulton aty edhe sot e gjithė ditėn. Nė Shkup aromanėt jetonin nė njė lagje veēan, sikurse ishte traditė pėr qytetet orientale, qė quhej “Lagjja e vllehėve”: “Vlaškoj mahala”. Nė kėtė lagje jetonte edhe familja Bojaxhi nė tė cilėn u lind mė 27 gusht 1910 Gonxhe Bojaxhiu, e ardhshmja Nėnė Terezė. Nė ditėn e sotme lagjja nė fjalė ėshtė shpėrbėrė nė njė masė tė madhe: aty tek ishte shtėpia e Bojaxhive ėshtė tani njė autorrugė pranė njė qendre tregtare ngjitur me “Sheshin Maqedonia”. Nuk ka ndonjė dėshmi qė tė dėftojė se ku Gonxhe Bojaxhiu ėshtė pagėzuar, por ėshtė e besueshme qė ajo tė jetė pagėzuar nė kishėn e lagjes ku u lind: nė “kishėn e vllehėve”. Pėr mėsimet fillore ka ndjekur njė shkollė jokatolike: kėtė e tregon edhe vetė nė kujtimet e saj. Po t’i lexohen me vėmendje kujtimet dhe t’i ndiqen prononcimet, le tė vihet re: ishte shqipja apo maqedonishtja ndėr gjuhėt qė ajo njihte? Apo ishte “the aromanian”? Aromanishtja/vllahishtja nuk ėshtė ndonjė gjuhė qarkullimi tė gjerė, gjuhė kulture moderne, nga ato qė mėsohen nėpėr kolegjet e Anglisė apo universitetet e SHBA-sė. Tė diturit e aromanishtes/ vllahishtes nga njė njeri i rritur shpjegohet vetėm nėpėrmjet njė fakti: dhe dihet se cili ėshtė ai fakt.
Nė moshėn dhjetėvjeēare Gonxhes i vdiq i ati, Nikollė Bojaxhiu dhe, me vdekjen e tij, ėshtė e kuptueshme tė vinte duke u zbehur edhe identiteti i tė parėve nga linja e gjakut. Nėn pėrkujdesjen e s’ėmės Drane, qė ishte katolike nga rrethinat e Gjakovės, Gonxhja nisi tė shpihej rregullisht tanimė nė kishėn katolike tė qytetit, tė kėndonte nė kor, derisa rreth tė dymbėdhjetave, sikurse ka treguar vetė, t’i lindte dėshira pėr t’u bėrė “motėr e shenjtė”.
Pinjoj tė familjes sė Bojaxhive tė Maqedonisė ndeshen aty-kėtu, nėpėr regjistrat e shpėtuar rastėsisht tė shkollave aromane, qysh me themelimin e tyre nė gjysmėn e dytė tė shek. XIX aty. Nė shkollėn aromane tė Gopeshit, pėr shembull, themeluar mė 1867, ndėr regjistrimet e vitit shkollor 1889-90 del Jani Bojaxhi, ndėrsa nė shkollėn aromane tė Krushovės, themeluar mė 1868, ndėr regjistrimet e vitit 1889-90 dalin Ana N. Bojaxhi, Taku Bojaxhi etj. Bojaxhi tė tjerė tė mbetur nė Maqedoni dhe tė lidhur mbas kishės ortodokse (pravosllave), me dhjetra emra nė kulturė, politikė, shkencė, sport (Aleksandėr Bojaxhi, Jani Bojaxhi, Dhimitri Bojaxhi) etj., mbahen tanimė tė “maqedonizuar”, ndryshe prej fatit tė Gonxhes qė u zhvendos nė mjedisin shqiptar katolik tė s’ėmės, nė Shqipėri.
Pavarėsisht ndonjė mėtimi joserioz tė FYROM-it zyrtar, Kryetari i Unionit pėr Kulturėn tė Aromanėve nė Maqedoni Dimo Dimcev e ka pėrshkruar me korrektėsi prejardhjen e familjes sė Gonxhe Bojaxhiut nė njė intervistė pėr NIN-in. Si kujton se dikur “Jerusalemi” i aromanėve pati qenė Voskopoja dhe se, me prishjen e saj, shumė familje voskopojare u hapėrdanė nė qytete nė ndryshme tė Ballkanit, si dhe tė Perandorisė austro-hungare, ai pėrshkruan edhe kalimin e pjesėve tė ndryshme tė familjes Bojaxhi nė Shkup, Prizren etj. Ai ka vėrejtur se i ati i Gonxhes, Nikolla, ishte pėrfaqėsues i vllehėve (vlasi) nė kuvendin e qytetit tė Shkupit; pėr kėtė ekziston edhe dokumenti pėrkatės bėrė i njohur prej Stojan Tren?evskit (“Mutter Teresa, Gondje Boiagi, ist von ihrem Vater Nikola Boiagi her wlachischer Abstammung; wir berufen uns auf das von dem Autor Stojan Trencevski entdeckte Dokument, das belegt, dass Nikola Boiagi in den Fuhrungsorganen der wlachischen Gemeinschaft in Skopje tatig gewesen war”). Nga njė anė tjetėr, as akademiku maqedon Tome Serafimovski nuk e ka pasur tė vėshtirė ta pranojė kėtė prejardhje: “Askush nė Maqedoni nuk ka mėtuar ndonjėherė qė Nėnė Tereza tė ketė qenė maqedone, kurse nė Shkup dihet qė ati i saj Nikolla Bojaxhi ka qenė jo shqiptar, por vllah” (“Niko nikada u Makedoniji nije tvrdio da je Majka Tereza bila Makedonka, ali u Skoplju se zna da joj otac Nikola Bojadzi bio ne Albanac, vec Cincar”).
Qė tė gjitha kėto orvatje pėr tė depėrtuar nė prejardhjen e njė figure si Nėnė Tereza, kėto tėrheqje litari me jo “ėshtė jona”, jo “nuk ėshtė juaja”, mund tė jenė nė thelb absurde: me kėtė jam njė mendjeje edhe unė. E Krishtera e Madhe e Kalkutės ėshtė njė figurė tanimė e shenjtė qė i pėrkiste/ i pėrket humanizmit tė krishterė mbarėkombėtar, madje jokombėtar ose mbikombėtar. E para qė do tė neveritej prej tėrheqjesh tė tilla litari do tė ishte ajo vetė, e cila refuzoi me ngul tė merrej ndonjėherė me pėrkatėsinė e saj etnike apo me prejardhjen e saj. Por atėherė pėrse kėta burra shteti ose minishteti, presidentė, kryebashkiakas etj., marrin pėrsipėr tė caktojnė a tė mbrojnė prejardhjen e njėrit apo tė tjetrit pa pasur haber as nga gjenealogjia, as nga filologjia, as nga historia? Madje, mė sė shumti, pa e ditur as ku bien me shtėpi kėto dije? Dhe ēfarė argumentesh shtien nė punė nė kėtė spektakėl kinse-nacionalist qė kolegu ynė me tė drejtė e quante “travestķ elitash”?
Ja ndonjė prej argumenteve, qėmtuar nėpėr mediat shqiptare prej niveleve tė bulevardit deri tek ato tė profesionistėve tė ATSh-sė, madje nga ato qė u shėrbehen tė huajve nė anglishte tė Tiranės: “Her real name is Agnes Bojaxhi. “Bojaxhi” in the Albanian language means “painter”!” Ose: “Mother Teresa was Albanian - her real name was Agnes Gonxhe Bojaxhiu. In the Albanian language Gonxhe means “bud” and Bojaxhi means “painter”!” Me njė fjalė: njė logjikė infantile, simbas tė cilės Blend Gonxhja (mė doli pikėrisht ky pėrpara pėr shoqėrim idesh) do tė qitej anglez, sepse: “His real name is Blend Gonxhe and the English Blend means “pėrzierje”!” As u shkon mendja kėtyre farė filologėve gjenelogjistė tė shpjegojnė se fjalė si bojė (nė shqip ngjyrė) dhe bojaxhi janė huazime nga turqishtja dhe si tė tilla kanė hyrė nė mė shumė se njė gjuhė tė Ballkanit. Sepse: si vallė i thonė bojaxhiut nė aromanishte? Nė aromanishte bojaxhiut i thonė bojaxhi. (Tė ma falė lexuesi, por m’u desh tė merrem kėtu me njė kėso shpjegimi ordiner.)
Pėrtej spektaklit tė “travestisė sė elitave” kthjellimi i kėtij tė sjelluri ka rėndėsi nė kulturėn shqiptare edhe pėr diē tjetėr: sepse me emėrtime si “aroman”, apo mė keq “vllah”, “kucovllah”, deri edhe “ēoban” ėshtė abuzuar tradicionalisht (ndonjėherė vijon tė abuzohet) pėr tė detraktuar personazhe nė zė tė kulturės shqiptare kur kanė qenė “tė padėshirueshėm” pėr dikė apo pėr diēka. Ky abuzim ka qenė (nė mos vijon tė jetė) njė mjet rėndomqar nė luftėn e ideve: atėherė kur njėra prej palėve “ndėrluftuese” nuk ka kundėr tjetrės kurrfarė argumenti tė fushės sė mendimit. Mandej? Mandej, si tė jenė marrė nė vitet ‘20-30 tridhjetė me qitjen e Konicės “kucovllah tė konvertuar”, si ta kenė zbuluar Fan. S. Nolin “aroman” dhe “joshqiptar” (mjerisht edhe ky vetė e kishte bėrė dikur tė atillė Konicėn), si ta kenė pėrgojuar Lasgushin pėr “vllah Pogradeci” etj., njė ditė prej ditėsh i shpallin ata “shqiptarė tė mėdhenj”. Po si kėshtu, me kėta shqiptaromėdhenj? Atėherė, nėse tė qėllon qė nė kėtė spektakėl e sipėr tė kesh pėr duarsh punimin pėr familjet e mėdha voskopojare dhe “voskopjarėt e mėdhenj”, nga njėri prej gjenalogjistėve bashkėkohorė nuk mund tė mos nėnvizosh kėtė vėrejtje: “Nė ekogjenetikėn e kohės sė sotme bihet njė mendjeje nga tė gjithė shkencėtarėt se problemi mė therės pėr botėn e gjallė ėshtė ai i erozionit tė gjeneve, qė nė gjenetikėn humane pėrkon me erozionin e gjeneve njerėzore. Erozioni gjenetik i njeriut nė skakierėn sociale kryhet edhe nga persekutimi i njeriut prej njeriut”. Vėrejtje qė tė bėn tė mendosh nė thellėsi: “nga persekutimi i njeriut prej njeriut”, ēfarė tė kujton mėnyrėn se si u sollėn pėr njė kohė tė gjatė nė Shqipėri me mėmėn e Gonxhe Bojaxhiut, me tė motrėn dhe me vetė Gonxhen tanimė Nėnė Terezė.




Bota Shqiptare nr. 93, 2-16 tetor 2003
Botuar njėkohėsisht edhe nė tė pėrditshmen shqiptare "Shekulli"

[Soldier of Macedon]

Kato Idroussa, and Ano Idroussa are Dolno & Gorno Kotori by the way.

Apparently 'Kotora' means 'battle' in Old Macedonian/Church Slavonic.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European_roots

The most credible of all promoted theories down to our days is Illyrian one. It has linguistical, geographical, historical, anthropological, ethnographical and genetical evidences.

There is no direct link to an Illyrian or another Paleo-Balkan heritage. You've shown nothing credible on any of the other threads Epirot, the only thing I would be prepared to accept at the moment are a few lexical correspondences.

The Folllowing is from 1901 from Madam Tsilka's unpublished memoirs about the story of her being kidnapped with Miss Stone by Macedonians;

Very soon a man emerged from a pile of branches and came near us. He looked nervous and confused and hesitated in his speech. "Please," I said, "Tell us, are you Christian bandits of Turks?"
"Oh," he said "We are a mixture of faiths and nationalities. Among us are Bulgarians and Albanians, Serbs and Macedonians. We even have a Jew with us. But we are no bandits. You shall know very soon why you were captured."

The man who spoke was Jane Sandanski. There's been newspaper articles of Boris Sarafov meeting with Albanian Revolutionaries in Albania when they began fighting the Turks in their own ground. But we must not forget that these Albanians were most likely christian as opposed to the muslims who did fight the Macedonians.

TM, do you have any more on this?

[The LION will ROAR]

Anti-Arvanitika campaigns

Educational policies played a chief role in the assimilation and the suppression of the practice of Arvanitika from native speakers. Official authorities also played a role through "subliminal hindrance" for the eradication of a language spoken for at least seven centuries. Below we are publishing some excerpts where direct and indirect pressures and "guidance" from authorities lead not only to the termination of Arvanitika language but also to the impediment of Arvanitika scholarship.*

"People told me that they were scared of reprisals on the part of authorities but also ashamed of still speaking "this bastardized language" I was once even reported to the police by the son of one of my informants but was set free after a few hours when the superior officers confirmed by telephone from Athens that my activities were entirely harmless and tolerated by official institutions." (This has occurred way too often with various foreign and local scholars, researchers and anthropologists.)

"A male informant from a village in Andros born in 1899 reported in an interview that his father had placed a big knife on a board above the entrance door, threatening his children that he would cut their tongue if he caught them speaking Arvanitika again.

Another speaker from a Corinthian village, likewise born around 1900, recalled having been beaten repeatedly for speaking Arvanitika with his sisters in the courtyard. Similar anecdotal evidence emerges from tape recorded biographies of very old speakers from Attica, taped in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Those who were not prevented from speaking Arvanitika by their parents were severely punished and ridiculed in school.

A conversation recorded in 1969 between a (not extremely well educated) monolingual Greek from Athens and an Arvanite peasant:

Monolingual Greek: "Shame on you for still speaking Arvanitika"

Peasant: "But we are Arvanites, aren't we? All of our ancestors have been Arvanites and have been speaking Arvanitika

Monolingual Greek: "But you live in Greece here, don't you? If you want to speak Arvanitika go to Tirana. In this country people speak Greek." *

Peasant: "But I'm Greek like you!"

Monolingual Greek: Then stop speaking that ugly jargon."

In 1969 there were definitely no Arvanites from Tirana. Twenty years later however,* the story changes as Arvanites could not relate economically and politically to the incoming Albanian refugees. The only cultural and linguistic commonalities that existed were invalidated by strong and convincing media images that depicted these refugees as barbarous and criminal. However, we are not talking about Arvanites as refugees, we are referring to Arvanites Greek citizens.

Regardless of their chronology, these examples can certainly be applied to other minority language speakers, but Arvanitika is a key example since it represents a significant portion of the modern Greek population.

To date there are no Arvanitika schools operating in Greece (October 2010).

Source: H.J.Sasse - Small languages and small language communities in Int'l J.Soc.Lang 1998.

[The LION will ROAR]

The Arvanites and the Arvanitika Language

http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/ijsl.1998.134.39

[The LION will ROAR]

The hostile attitude of the Modern Greek State towards Arvanitika

Greece is not the only country having a* negative attitude towards minority languages. All nation-states at the point of their formation, spread hostility, negativity and moral denigration in regard to the use of languages that were not proclaimed as national or official. This in Greece, followed a French model of national integration, was much more intense than in other states which were federalized. (1) As we have established in the past however, the role of the Greek government in the eradication and extermination of Arvanitika is not to be discounted.

Anastasios Koulouriotis the Arvanite "quasi-scholar" of 19th century tried to transmit the Arvanite language to a written form with its own alphabet. His father was John Koulouriotis who fought and died in 1827 at the siege of the Acropolis. On April 24, 1827, two days after the death of the chieftain Karaiskaki near Acropolis in Athens, most Kuluriote (Salaminian) fighters were killed in a battle with Kiutahi.

At an early age, Anastasios Koulouriotis emigrated to North America. After several years he returned to Athens where he opened his own printing shop. In May 29, 1879 he published a newspaper called "The Voice of Albania" which stopped being issued a year later, on August 23, 1880. At the small printing shop he also printed other books containing mainly political content. Among his publications an alphabet of the Albanian language is distinctive, it was published in Athens in 1882* and titled "Arberor Alphabet ...of the Spoken Albanian Dialect in Greece".*

Later Anastasios Koulouriotis went to Salamina with the thought that there he would find a place to operate, but a different surprise awaited him. (2) The mayor there talked to him in angry manner and hard tone and said,

"..we, try to make these people forget the language and you, are bringing us books too?!"
*

Tasos Neroutsos correspondence with the albanologist Gustav Meyer


Tasos Neroutsos, an Arvanite from his mother's side was from Athens. He studied German literature and medicine and moved to Egypt where he worked as a doctor. His first reaction was to write to Meyer about the dramatic decline of the Arvanitika language due to the Hellenization process taking place in the kingdom of Greece. This was in 1888. He gives two reasons for the Hellenization. The first is the political pressure that exists, since Arvanitika is not taught, citing "Albanian schools are not allowed."* The second reason is that with the policy of non-teaching there, and with the establishment of girl schools, which according to Neroutsos' opinion, was especially done in albanophone areas. In his opinion, the state wants to eradicate Arvanitika from Greece considering the use of such language associated with lower social classes, rural and marine, while the use of the the Greek language shows one who has adopted the Greek national ideology. He also gives some demographic data. In 1833 he estimates 260,000 Albanophones in Greece, and in 1879 he counts only 58,000.

As time went by, his correspondence and his attitudes toward language changed and he began to tell some interesting details, like the one about the Royal Family installed in Tatoi (3) which had relations to the Arvanite local villagers, that also learned Arvanitika.

From the year 1880

In January 12, 1889, in a letter to Meyer, he* recommends him to go on a journey and provides him with many details of the areas where he would meet Arvanites in Greece. The first information he gives him is to go to Kifissia where there were very good hotels and where he would find himself in the midst of an Arvanite population.

In the published records of the Ministry of Education from the 19th century on Andros, one finds specific references to the northern part where the particular responsibility of the Ministry of Education is to establish schools in Arvanite villages in order to reduce the use of the (Arvanite) language.* A manual of language for the 4th and 5th elementary grades during the interwar period, from the year 1925, has as a basic objective for the need to eliminate Arvanitika. Finally, there is a hypothetical village (representing all Arvanite villages), "Kakoriziko" (having bad karma), in which a teacher goes and finds everyone talking Arvanitika. When they cease to speak Arvanitika, the village becomes "Kaloriziko" (having a good karma)..

*

1. K.E.M.O., Linguistic Diversity in Greece, p. 316.

2. Saltaris, Nick J., Mitro Truki (Arvanite poet of the 19th century), "Gerou" Publications-Arvanite Library No. 3, Athens 1987, pp. 96-98.

3. Despite being renamed to Dekeleia, the Arvanite toponym Tatoj is widely used.

[Onur]

The word "Arvanites" comes from same root with the Turkish expression "Arnavut, Arnauts" which basically means Albanians, nothing else. So they shouldn't even need to consider themselves as Albanians cuz they are already Albanians

[The LION will ROAR]

The Arvanites considered themselves to be Skipetars(Albanians) in 1814!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1748

[The LION will ROAR]

THE ARVANITES - 45% of 'Greece' was populated by Albanians

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html

[The LION will ROAR]

The Arvanites of Central Greece, the Slavs and the modern Greeks!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2144

[TrueMacedonian]

Bump it up. I love these topics that make the ufologists of AMAC cry foul lol.

[Epirot]

Epirot, I am not convinced that modern Albanians are Illyrians. Nor am I convinced about age old Albanian presence in many of the places listed on the maps. Do you accept the motivation for Islamisation of many Albanians was to be able to carry arms and move freely within the Ottoman empire?

Risto, today's world-wide historical community admit that Albanians descent from one of Paleo-Balkanian people. The question is which people may be regarded as progenitors of Albanians:
1. Illyrians
2. Thracians
3. Daco-Mysians

The hipothesis of Thraco-Dacian ancestry is based speficifally in linguistical proofs, not historical ones. There is no a single historical record who tells of any migration of Albanians from Thrace, Dacia, etc.
Even one of promotors of such theory, V.Georgiev admitted that arguments of Thracian theory are not sufficient to complete such hypothesis into theory.

The most credible of all promoted theories down to our days is Illyrian one. It has linguistical, geographical, historical, anthropological, ethnographical and genetical evidences. Furthermore, Illyrian theory has more tradition because even Byzantine Chroniclers indicated Illyrian ancestry of the Albanians.

The fact that Albanian presence throughout former Illyricum is attested by some toponomic and onomastic evidences. You know that Alban or Arban is commonplace in western and central Penninsula.

I myself Muslim by religion. But sincerely religion never played any important role amongst us because we did not never identify ourself with religion unlike other Balkan's people who recognized sometimes themselves as a religous group. The fact that Albanians adopted Islam as their own religion was to secure some autonomy, carrying of arms, moving freely into their regions, to preserve their agricultural lands and many other 'utilitar' reasons.