Busting the "Vergina Tomb" myth

[Sweet Sixteen]

e know how they the greeks discovered the Macedonian toombs.how did they rename them from kutlesh what does vergina mean Vergin???Kutlesh is the Macedonian name.

I have often read something like this, but... surprise-surprise Koutles, Barbes and Palatitsa, all three of them had exclusively Greek-speaking population at 1900, according to Knchov and Brancoff.

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/plithysmos-kai-oikismoi-tis-perioxis-beroias-1886-%E2%80%93-1927

I'm not sure where each one was, but the main tomb is IN the village of Vergina.

Palatitsa (little palace) was the main village (of 500 people) nearby Vergina, and Koutles and Barbes were smaller ones (of 100 and 75 people respectively) probably where Vergina is today.

Today Vergina has a population of 1200 and Palatitsa has 830 people.


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[George S.]

you forgot to mention the type of greeks it the greeks from Bulgaria and greeks from asia mynor in the population exchanges.You say kutles was greek .Are you sure it wasn't helenised??Kutlesh has got an sh not es at the end.If it always was vergina why change it from kutlesh.I'll tell you why to make it all look greek.Originally vergina was not the name name.THe Macedonian name has a meaning like a place in the sun.Isn't it amazing after the discovery of 1977 the greeks were realizing the star of vergina had significance for the Macedonians so they adopted it..SO why insist that it was greek when they didn't know it existed.

[Sweet Sixteen]

you forgot to mention the type of greeks it the greeks from Bulgaria and greeks from asia mynor in the population exchanges.You say kutles was greek .Are you sure it wasn't helenised??Kutlesh has got an sh not es at the end.If it always was vergina why change it from kutlesh.I'll tell you why to make it all look greek.Originally vergina was not the name name.THe Macedonian name has a meaning like a place in the sun.Isn't it amazing after the discovery of 1977 the greeks were realizing the star of vergina had significance for the Macedonians so they adopted it..SO why insist that it was greek when they didn't know it existed.

Knchov's and Brancoff's statistics are from 1900 and 1905 BEFORE the population exchanges. They spell it as Kutliš and Koutliche respectively.

Koutles and Barbes were rather settlements, not villages, and were somehow merged in the new village of Vergina, when 400 refugees came in 1922. Vergina was a new name given at 1922.

[Dejan]

Went to Vergina and the tombs back in 2004. Spoke to some locals, and even one official who worked in/around the tombs. Guess what language I used?

[George S.]

ok can someone explain to me i went to Greece in 2006.I asked the locals why is it that there is hardly anything in the museum to do with Macedonia.The answer was they are not to comment to one about Macedonia any artifacts on Macedonia have been transferred to northern geece .Someone has got something to hide?In Athens abandoned oned dogs everywhere you look not only this lots and lots of stray and abandoned dogs with dog excerement everywhere.Gone to the dogs has a new meaning.one one has to watch out they don't step into dogshit.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is a message I received from a member named Amphipolis, which may be of some interest and relevance to this topic.

Hello,

I accidentally fell on this British article that studies the bones of the body found in the Vergina Tomb. While this article supports it is Phillip, what I found more interesting is that it is full of pictures, the whole skeleton, details of the scull etc.

I admit I hadn't seen this for more than 10 years and I think it would be a good idea to share this with the forum members.

http://www.medsci.org/v07p00s1.pdf

[Nikolaj]

Here is a message I received from a member named Amphipolis, which may be of some interest and relevance to this topic.

Will give it a read tomorrow morning.

[Amphipolis]

Greek archaeologists have discovered pieces of the mask which Macedonian king Philip II wore as chief priest in the Orphic mysteries. The debris have been found in Tomb II in the capital of the Macedonian kingdom of Aigai (modern Vergina).

The traces of minerals huntite and porphyry in the 350 bones found in the two gold boxes (larnax) confirm the theory that an artfully constructed mask which he used during his lifetime had been put on the face of the dead man before he was placed on the funeral-pile. This was performed as a tribute and in recognition to his contribution.

The new finds as well as those discovered in the last 4 years of excavation will be presented at a ceremony at the Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki by the Interdisciplinary Group of University Excavations in Vergina.

The statements of the head of research and director of the Laboratory of Archaeometry at Democritus Institute, Yannis Maniatis, who discovered the huntite and the porphyry on the bones and believes that it is related to a mask, arouse interest. "It was a very complex structure created by many layers and fabric, which we find for the first time in the region of Macedonia. We have found 6-7 layers of huntite and porphyry. This is the mask that Philip wore during religious ceremonies, probably as a priest in the Orphic mysteries. The mask was a personal and sacred object that accompanied the deceased in the grave and was burned with him or her", says the researcher for Ethnos newspaper.

The study of the debris performed so far dispels the theory that it was a piece of cloth, with which bones had been wrapped before they were burned. However, it is still not clear where the huntite mineral which is extremely rare came from.

The archaeologist Dimosthenis Kehayas who is studying the prints of fabric found on the bone material found, has conducted a similar study. His prior research is focused on the remains of crimson-coloured cloth with which the bones of the dead were wrapped. This is a very ancient practice, which however was rare in Ancient Macedonia.

At the same time, at the ceremony in the Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki anthropologist Theodore Antikas will present new findings on the skeletons found in the tomb, from which it becomes completely clear that the dead people are Macedonian king Philip II and the daughter of the Scythian king Atheios.

The anthropological analysis of the bones showed that the man had suffered from chronic sinusitis and probably had had serious vision problems, while the degenerative changes show that he had been a 41-49 year-old rider. In addition, a wound has been found on the left hand. A fact which Demosthenes mentions in one of his famous speeches.

As regards the female bones found in tomb II, the study showed that they belonged to a woman aged about 32 years, whose left leg had been broken and she had been lame. According to data, the woman had been an experienced rider and warrior. This is evidenced by the rich armoury of spears, arrows and quiver that have been found in her grave.

These findings exclude the possibility of the so far popular assumptions that the woman was Cleopatra or Meda (wife of Philip II) and Eurydice (wife of Philip III Arrhidaeus) and reinforce the theory that it was a daughter of the Scythian king Atheios, whose name is not known.

[Amphipolis]

Since this is already compared to the mosaic of Amphipolis let me post it again:

[George S.]

you know that mosaic depicts macedonian life and not greek.You know the greeks and macedonians were not the same race.Both races are different.If they were the same race why draw a distinction??

[Amphipolis]

you know that mosaic depicts macedonian life and not greek.You know the greeks and macedonians were not the same race.Both races are different.If they were the same race why draw a distinction??

No, I don't know. Which races? Which distinction? Which mosaic? That is a painting.

[VMRO]

http://mashable.com/2014/10/12/alexander-the-great-father-remains/

Tomb Remains Confirmed as Alexander the Great's Father

The remains from a royal tomb discovered in Vergina, Greece, were confirmed to belong to the father of Alexander the Great.

A team of Greek researchers has confirmed that bones found in a two-chambered royal tomb at Vergina, a town some 100 miles away from Amphipolis's mysterious burial mound, indeed belong to the Macedonian King Philip II, Alexander the Great's father.

The anthropological investigation examined 350 bones and fragments found in two larnakes, or caskets, of the tomb. It uncovered pathologies, activity markers and trauma that helped identify the tomb's occupants.

Along with the cremated remains of Philip II, the burial, commonly known as Tomb II, also contained the bones of a woman warrior, possibly the daughter of the Skythian King Athea, Theodore Antikas, head of the Art-Anthropological research team of the Vergina excavation, told Discovery News.

SEE ALSO: Female sculptures revealed in Greek tomb (photos)

The findings will be announced on Friday at the Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki. Accompanied by 3,000 digital color photographs and supported by X-ray computed tomography, scanning electron microscopy, and X-ray fluorescence, the research aims to settle a decades-old debate over the cremated skeleton.

Scholars have argued over those bones ever since Greek archaeologist Manolis Andronikos discovered the tomb in 1977-78.

Scholars have argued over those bones ever since Greek archaeologist Manolis Andronikos discovered the tomb in 1977-78. He excavated a large mound — the Great Tumulus — at Vergina on the advice of the English classicist Nicholas Hammond.

Among the monuments found within the tumulus were three tombs. One, called Tomb I, had been looted, but contained a stunning wall painting of the Rape of Persephone, along with fragmentary human remains.

Tomb II remained undisturbed and contained the almost complete cremated remains of a male skeleton in the main chamber and the cremated remains of a female in the antechamber. Grave goods included silver and bronze vessels, gold wreaths, weapons, armor and two gold larnakes.

SEE ALSO: Great archaeological discoveries ahead

Tomb III was also found unlooted, with a silver funerary urn that contained the bones of a young male, and a number of silver vessels and ivory reliefs.

Most of the scholarly debate concentrated on the occupants of Tomb II, with experts arguing that the occupants were either Philip II and Cleopatra or Meda, both his wives, or Philip III Arrhidaeus, Alexander's half-brother, who assumed the throne after Alexander's death, with his wife Eurydice.

Analyzed by Antikas' team since 2009, the male and female bones have revealed peculiarities not previously seen or recorded.

"The individual suffered from frontal and maxillary sinusitis that might have been caused by an old facial trauma," Antikas said.

SEE ALSO: Accidental archaeological discoveries (photos)

Such trauma could be related to an arrow that hit and blinded Philip II's right eye at the siege of Methone in 354 B.C. The Macedonian king survived and ruled for another 18 years before he was assassinated at the celebration of his daughter's wedding.

The anthropologists found further bone evidence to support the identification with Philip II, who being a warrior, suffered many wounds, as historical accounts testify.

"He had signs of chronic pathology on the visceral surface of several low thoracic ribs, indicating pleuritis," Antikas said.

He noted that the pathology may have been the effect of Philip's trauma when his right clavicle was shattered with a lance in 345 or 344 B.C.

[George S.]

there still remains a doubt about how the remains are of philip ii.THere is a saying the jury is still out.

[Amphipolis]

there still remains a doubt about how the remains are of philip ii.THere is a saying the jury is still out.

Yes. This is a good summary (about 30 pages) of all opinions and controversies about the Vergina Tombs. This is from 2008, so it misses the recent major developments.

What is important about the latest analysis is that (based on the age of the diseased 45+/-4) they definitely exclude the option of Philip III Arrhidaios (which was the theory of Borza- Palagia). BUT, the results on the woman are also surprising and destroy or alter some of the pro-Philip II arguments.

Lately, I've started re-evaluating Faklaris who believes that Vergina is not Aegae and none of these tombs is royal. The author of the link simply mentions him, he says nobody takes Faklaris seriously and quickly bypasses him.

http://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstream/10442/13407/2/IGRA_DOC09_06.pdf

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[George S.]

Lately, I've started re-evaluating Faklaris who believes that Vergina is not Aegae and none of these tombs is royal. The author of the link simply mentions him, he says nobody takes Faklaris seriously and quickly bypasses him.I have been saying it for years.They are cococting it all.THe square peg fits all approach.I know that i'm right.Vergina is just a madeup name when its old macedonian name kutlesh should do.Do you know what kutlesh means in Macedonian.??