Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks SoM, that's interesting. So, basically the "archaic" Albanian term for Greeks is "Slavs". It seems unexpected and it deserves more research.

Carlin, just to be clear, I was suggesting that the archaic Albanian term for Slavic-speaking peoples used in Albania continued to be used by the Albanians who migrated south into Greece, because they encountered Slavic-speaking peoples there too. The Slavic-speaking peoples in Greece eventually lost their language at some point and adopted the Greek language, but the Albanians in that area continued to use the earlier term to refer to those same peoples as a legacy. Although Albanian is attested in written form after the aforementioned migrations, I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that the Albanians already had a specific term for Greek-speakers (different to what they called Slavic-speakers) and therefore would have used that term when encountering such people in Greece, unless of course the term 'shkljira' came to refer to other non-Albanian peoples after a certain period of time post-settlement. In any case, the likelihood I was trying to highlight is that the ancestors of the people in Greece today who are referred to as 'shkljira' by the Albanians/Arvanites may have spoken Slavic languages centuries earlier.

The ancient Illyrians lived side by side with the Hellenes for many centuries and presumably only came into contact with the Slavs around 6th century AD, when the Slavs arrived to the Balkans. For the next few centuries the Albanians, the "descendants" of the Illyrians, lived close to the Slavs and as well as the Greeks.

You and I had a discussion a while back on another thread regarding the origin of the Slavic languages, I believe I owe you a response there (I will endeavour to address those questions shortly), so, to keep the discussion on topic here, I will not outline my perspective on the above. Suffice to say we may have differing opinions which we can delve further into on the other thread.

1) The Albanians were in close contact with the Slavs longer, and only came into contact with the "Greeks" at a later historical stage (likely post 6th/7th c. AD). 2) Initially, the Albanians were NOT in contact and did not live in close proximity to the Greeks. This would seem to support the theories which state that the ancestors of modern Albanians arrived to "modern Albania" from somewhere in Moesia and/or Dacia (or possibly elsewhere).

I think we can find some common agreement there. Whilst there may very well be an Illyrian element in the Albanian language, the suggestion by a number of Albanian and western linguists that it is directly descended from Illyrian is unsubstantiated, instead, it rests primarily on the supposition that if Albanian doesn't belong to any other language family then it must have been native to Illyria. The direct descent of Albanian from Thracian is even more dubious and unworthy of discussion. Personally, I think Albanian was formed from a fusion of different languages and underwent even further development as it finally reached the territory of modern Albania. The initial fusion may have taken place somewhere in or around Dacia, because there is a substratum of words shared only between Albanian and Romanian. Further, Latin loans in Albanian appear to have entered the language from different sources and periods of time, but a number of them exhibit the same sound changes as Romanian. The question on what the predecessor of Albanian sounded like prior to contact with Latin/Romance and other languages and its earliest location remains somewhat elusive because of the obscure group of people who spoke it centuries ago. In any case, worthy of further discussion and a topic which should be of particular interest to yourself given part of your ancestral background. However, I should point out, there are some scholars (including Hamp, it would seem) that have suggested that Romanian is a form of Latinized Albanian - which I find lacks credibility.

[Carlin]

It happened much further south than Epirus. The sources from the Arvanites wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

As I mentioned in the earlier post above, Albanians weren't known to refer to Roma, Vlachs or Turks in a similar way, so I find it hard to accept that the term was used in a generic manner for "neighbouring foreigner" as suggested by Hamp, at least not originally. The word 'shqa' was/is used by Albanians in reference to people who spoke/speak Slavic languages, often as a derogatory slur. The word 'shklji̇́ra' is clearly related to the former (perhaps even more archaic as it still retains the 'l'). Albanians had already been in contact with people who spoke Greek prior to their migration southwards, so why would they suddenly use that word to refer to them when they arrived in the Peloponnese and elsewhere? Given the existence of Slavic-speaking peoples in Morea (and the amount of Slavic place-names) at the time of the Albanian migration, there is another possibility that could be entertained, namely, that Albanians encountered such people when they arrived and the term remained (and eventually expanded) despite the eventual language shift from Slavic to Greek by the earlier inhabitants.

Thanks SoM, that's interesting. So, basically the "archaic" Albanian term for Greeks is "Slavs". It seems unexpected and it deserves more research.

This made me think about something else though, namely about the theories of Illyrian descent of modern Albanians and how this ties in to the find above.

The ancient Illyrians lived side by side with the Hellenes for many centuries and presumably only came into contact with the Slavs around 6th century AD, when the Slavs arrived to the Balkans. For the next few centuries the Albanians, the "descendants" of the Illyrians, lived close to the Slavs and as well as the Greeks. It would seem pretty odd that the "Illyrians" started referring to the older population using a 'common Slavonic' term, and in effect, confounded the two population groups that clearly speak different languages. Hamp stating that "obviously the meaning is traditionally the neighbouring foreigner" does not seem satisfactory because the Albanians lived alongside Vlachs and others for example, and don't refer to any by this term as you pointed out.

I would find it even more strange and surprising if this "term" somehow developed only in recent centuries.

This would seem to indicate a couple of things to me, not that I am an expert in these matters:

1) The Albanians were in close contact with the Slavs longer, and only came into contact with the "Greeks" at a later historical stage (likely post 6th/7th c. AD).
2) Initially, the Albanians were NOT in contact and did not live in close proximity to the Greeks. This would seem to support the theories which state that the ancestors of modern Albanians arrived to "modern Albania" from somewhere in Moesia and/or Dacia (or possibly elsewhere).


Having said all of that, I wanted to share the following which I found noteworthy and I'm not sure if it's been discussed before. Quote:

"The highest levels of IBD (“identical by descent”) sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one."

URL:

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

[Soldier of Macedon]

Albanians have been know to use the term 'shqa' in a pejorative manner against people in the Balkans who speak 'Slavic' languages, particularly their neighbours. They may have borrowed it from Aromanian (Vlach) 'shcljau' or Romanian 'șchiau', ultimately from Latin 'sclavus'. Albanians in Greece use a similar word, 'shkljira', to refer to Greeks. It's been suggested that this term developed a general meaning of 'foreigner', but I am not aware of Albanians using it to refer to Roma, Vlachs and Turks, who also lived near or among them. Albanians apparently started moving into Attica and Morea from the 13th and 14th centuries. I haven't looked into this much further, just wanted to explore the possibility if, when they arrived, some of their new neighbours were initially speaking 'Slavic' languages, hence the reason why they continued to use the term.

It is possible this happened in Epirus. Apparently, at some point in the middle ages, there were still 'Slavic' speakers there.

It happened much further south than Epirus. The sources from the Arvanites wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

Pipa, Arshi (1989). The politics of language in socialist Albania. East European Monographs. p. 178. "North Albanian call Slavs shqé (sg. shqá <shkjá <shklá, from sclavus), whereas to Greco-Albanians shklerisht means ‘in the Greek language.’ Hamp observes that "obviously the meaning is traditionally ‘the neighbouring foreigner,’ as with Welsh, Vlah, etc.""

Tsitsipis. Language change and language death. 1981. pp. 100-101. "The term /evjeni̇́stika/ meaning "polite", used by the young speaker to refer to Greek, is offered as synonymous to /shkljiri̇́shtika/ one of the various morphological shapes of the Arvanitika word /shkljeri̇́shtë/ which refers to "the Greek language". Thus, Greek is equated with the more refined, soft, and polite talk. The concept of politeness is occasionally extended from the language to its speakers who are the representatives of the urban culture. In conversations in Kiriaki, I heard the word /shklji̇́ra/ (fem.) referring to a city women who exhibits polite and fancy behavior according to the local view. As I stated in the introduction to this dissertation, most of the occurrences of the term /shkljeri̇́shtë/ are not socially marked, and simply refer to the Greek language. But a few are so marked and these are the ones that reflect the speakers’ attitudes. The term /shkljeri̇́shtë/ is ambiguous. This ambiguity offers a valuable clue to the gradual shift in attitudes. It points to the more prestigious Greek language and culture, and also has a derogatory sense. In my data only the first meaning of the socially marked senses of the word occurs."; pp. 101-102. "The second meaning is offered by Kazazis in his description of the Arvanitika community of Sofikó, in the Peloponnese (1976:48): . . . two older people from Sofiko told me independently that, to the not-so-remote past, it was those who spoke Greek with their fellow-Arvanites who were ridiculed. Even today, if an older inhabitant of Sofiko were to speak predominantly in Greek with his fellow villagers of the same age, he would be called i shkljerishtúarë, literally "Hellenized" but used here as a derogatory term denoting affectation. One of those two informants, a woman, said that, until about 1950, it was a shame for a girl in Sofiko to speak Greek with her peers, for that was considered as "putting on airs." In Spata, /shkljeri̇́shtë/ is used only to refer to "the Greek language" although speakers are aware of the other meanings of the word."

As I mentioned in the earlier post above, Albanians weren't known to refer to Roma, Vlachs or Turks in a similar way, so I find it hard to accept that the term was used in a generic manner for "neighbouring foreigner" as suggested by Hamp, at least not originally. The word 'shqa' was/is used by Albanians in reference to people who spoke/speak Slavic languages, often as a derogatory slur. The word 'shklji̇́ra' is clearly related to the former (perhaps even more archaic as it still retains the 'l'). Albanians had already been in contact with people who spoke Greek prior to their migration southwards, so why would they suddenly use that word to refer to them when they arrived in the Peloponnese and elsewhere? Given the existence of Slavic-speaking peoples in Morea (and the amount of Slavic place-names) at the time of the Albanian migration, there is another possibility that could be entertained, namely, that Albanians encountered such people when they arrived and the term remained (and eventually expanded) despite the eventual language shift from Slavic to Greek by the earlier inhabitants.

[Carlin]

URL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=243&v=zT4nLz999bo&feature=emb_title

Albanian historians - many Albanians are of Bosniak origin (the video contains subtitles in Serbo-Croatian / Croato-Serbian only)

A rich collection of Albanian authors on the settlement and migration of refugee muhadjirs of predominantly Muslim population of various origins (Bosniak, Turkish, Albanian, Circassian, etc.) from Hungary, Bosnia, southern Serbia and Montenegro and their settlement in Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia and territories that are were still under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.

Phase one or immediate effect of these population transfers/resettlements was that many regions were Islamicized. As a result of the resettlements the Muslim population in Kosovo reached 90%; ethnic Muslim Circassians were settled in Kosovo Polje district as one interesting example.

Phase two of this process was subsequent Albanization, in language and culture.

[VMRO]

ARBANIA MENTIONED IN 7TH CENTURY

''Fifteenth-century Turkish chroniclers called the Dukagjinis "princes of German origin." Whether this is true or not is difficult to ascertain. Ragusan sources, published by Makushev in "Research on the Chronicle of Ragusa," (12) claim that the Dukagjinis were known as the Dukagjinis of Arbania in the seventh century and ruled over the Albanian part of Montenegro (Piperi, Vasojevich, Podgorica and Kuchi, i.e. Zeta). They apparently rose in revolt against the Slavic invaders but were put down by Bosnian chieftains. In 695 they attempted to interfere in domestic Ragusan issues but were repulsed again and submitted to the local Slavic leaders.''(13)

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1956_Vlora/index.html

Interesting that the Dukagjinis family was founded by a Norman noble that settled there with his people after the crusades.

[tchaiku]

ARBANIA MENTIONED IN 7TH CENTURY

''Fifteenth-century Turkish chroniclers called the Dukagjinis "princes of German origin." Whether this is true or not is difficult to ascertain. Ragusan sources, published by Makushev in "Research on the Chronicle of Ragusa," (12) claim that the Dukagjinis were known as the Dukagjinis of Arbania in the seventh century and ruled over the Albanian part of Montenegro (Piperi, Vasojevich, Podgorica and Kuchi, i.e. Zeta). They apparently rose in revolt against the Slavic invaders but were put down by Bosnian chieftains. In 695 they attempted to interfere in domestic Ragusan issues but were repulsed again and submitted to the local Slavic leaders.''(13)

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1956_Vlora/index.html

[Carlin]

Pope Pius II (Enea Silvio Bartolomeo Piccolomini): Albanians are not Illyrians.

[Carlin]

Vlach origin of some Muslim-Albanian Beys

URL:

http://rrjetat.com/origjina-aremeno-vllahe-e-disa-bejlereve-shqiptaro-myslimane/

"While discussing the same argument I had a pleasant surprise, to hear the stunning stories of some gendarmes accompanying me, that in the commune called Golem of Kurvelesh south of Tepelena, there had been in former times Vlachs who had become Muslims.

They knew they had Aromanian origins, and said that there were even neighborhoods with Vlach names in Golem: the Chendrea, Nicholas and Vasilean neighborhoods, which was later confirmed by another Muslim gendarme."

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Saw some Greeks on Facebook claiming the Ottoman word 'Arnaut' denoted a person of banditry similar to how 'Rum' meant Christian.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

The now extinct Istrian Albanian language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian_Albanian

The still spoken Arbanasi Gheg dialect of Croatia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbanasi_dialect

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

How was it deduced that Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and Messapic?

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

Historian Dr. Ferit Duka states that Scanderbeg's father was named JOVAN, and not Gjon.

URL (video is in Albanian though):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNmCb_oFvs

Ethnic Albanian MP in the Montenegrin Parliament, Dritan Abazovic states that Skanderbeg's mother and father were Slavs (Serbs):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bei-_YzJa_w

The author of this book was Gavriil Simeonovski, a native of Debar:



Summary:

- Prior to the coming of the Turks the Despot of Avlona and Kanina was a certain Alexander, "Slav" by nationality (Aleksandar "slavianin" po narodnost). Branila served this Alexander, and Branila was grandfather (from father's line) of G. Skanderbeg. Jireček claims that G. Skanderbeg was of Slavic extraction.
- The Miyaks - Мијаци consider themselves as descendants of Skanderbeg.

[Carlin]

Леток на Комунистичката партија на Албанија по повод бесењето на шест македонски партизани во Тирана

URL:

https://www.marxists.org/makedonski/istorija/makedonija/nob/letok-kpa.htm

Напишано: 1943
Првпат објавено: "Zëri i Popullit", број 2 од 18 мај 1943
Извор: Дејан Алексиќ „Душко Поповиќ - Ѓоко“, Архив на Скопје, Скопје, 1985, 345-346 стр.
Техничка обработка: Здравко Савески
Онлајн верзија: ноември 2014

На 17 мај фашистите обесија во Тиранскиот затвор 6 македонски патриоти. Во Тирана се раздели летокот, кој го печатиме тука подолу. Учениците од училиштата, во знак на жалост, спроведоа штрајк. Да се живи! Петтата колона со некои свои агенти, божем 100% патриоти, а учениците биле само 90%, се побунија затоа што тие, пак, божем направиле злосторство против албанскиот народ! Кога би тие направиле злосторство против албанскиот народ сигурно би биле капетани во квестурата или во полицијата во Софија, во Белград или во Тирана и не ќе се бараа со свеќа од фашистичката полиција по целиот Балкан. Тие се бореа против еден непријател кој е и наш непријател, затоа тие беа наши пријатели и со своите сеќавања ни се блиски. Не може да се трпи кога го бесат твојот пријател пред вратата од куќата! Нека замолчат интригантите по кафеаните и шпекулантите со патриотизмот.

Народе на Тирана, шест Македонци, борци за слобода, ги бесат денес фашистичките колачи на тиранската земја.

Народе на Тирана, на својата земја си ги видел обесени од фашистичките џелати твоите почитувани синови: Шукри Ишма, Амид Шијак, Ферит Џајо и Никола Тупе; на својата земја си видел како се убиени како лавови војувајќи за слободата на Татковината: Ќемал Стафа, Војо Куши, Садек Ставелци, Џорџ Мартини, Мисто Мане, Михал Дури и други; на твојата земја сега гледаш обесени, исто така од крвавите раце на фашистичките колачи, шест деца од македонски мајки, кои војуваа, исто така како твоите синови, со иста душа на самопрегор и жртви против фашистичкиот окупатор и против предавниците, а за слобода на својата Татковина. Тероризмот извршен над тие шестмина македонски херои на албанска земја, поради истата идеја - за ослободување од фашистичкото ропство, нè прават уште повеќе да бидеме солидарни, со соседните народи нè сврзуваат со заеднички пролеаната крв. Борбата на тие херои е и наша борба, тоа е народноослободителната борба на потиснатите народи против поробувачкиот фашизам и против неговите квислинзи.

Протестираме сите заедно против ова срамно злосторство, против владата Либокова - Кол Биба, против балканските квислинзи, кои се десна рака на фашизмот на Балканот и заколнати непријатели на народите, против криминалната алијанса на предавниците Либокова - Кол, Биба - Мер, Лика - Борис - Антоанеску - Павелиќ - Недиќ, против заедницата на балканските терористи со фашистичкиот окупатор.

Долу фашистичките окупатори и нивните квислинзи!

Да живее единството на потиснатите народи во борбата за слобода!

Смрт на фашизмот - Слобода на народот!

Забелешки на транскриберот

[1] Во борбата со балистите на 27 април 1943 година во Ново Село, Гостиварско, биле заробени десет македонски партизани. Тие набрзо биле префрлени во затворот во Тирана каде што на 17 мај 1943 година италијанските фашисти обесиле шестмина од нив: Илија Антевски - Смок, Душко Поповиќ, Христо Оџаклиевски, Раде Угриновски, Драги Тодоровски и Трифко Андоновски. Истиот ден, Околискиот комитет на Комунистичката партија на Албанија за Тирана организирал масовни демонстрации на кои излегле илјадници жители на Тирана. Подробности за овие демонстрации наведува Илија Топалоски во својата статија „Нашата бригада и братството со албанскиот народ“.