Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Sovius
    Member
    • Apr 2009
    • 241

    Excellent work by the way.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13675

      Continued on from here:

      Below is collection of information from this forum and other sources, presenting a chronology of Serbian historical events where reference to the inhabitants and areas as Bulgarian and/or Greek is prevalent. The purpose is not to demonstrate that Serbs are the latter two, but that such terms are as insignificant to them as they


      Originally posted by Epirot
      There is a plethora of historical facts emphasizing Albanian character of the above-mentioned region. I'm quite surprised how an educated Macedonian like you has no knowledge for something that is so self-evident.
      That 'plethora' of information doesn't go against what I suggested before, namely, that Albanians spread to these regions as a result of the Ottoman Empire. And that fact is evidenced in the texts you provided, as the Albanians living around Morava or Nish were all Muslims. There is no evidence of permanent Albanian habitation in these regions prior to the Ottomans and the conversion of your people (at least most of them) to Islam. If you think you're able to prove otherwise, I am happy to hear your arguments.
      More or less.
      Well, you'd be wrong if you were, because there was no such thing at the time. The Serbs, like other Orthodox Christians, belonged to the 'Rum' (Roman) millet. That the Serb identity was used by others in the region as a descriptor for an Orthodox Christian is another matter, because it wasn't considered a millet until much later. The sources you posted from the Serbian authors are interesting though, thanks for that.
      But if you ask me if Albanians as nation are more consistent than Serbs, my Answer would be YES........Albanians were consolidated as an ethnic group which trace back its origin to the Illyrians and the Epirotes.
      Epirot, that sounds like something extracted straight out of Mein Kampf. Your highly bastardised (look the word up, I don't mean it in a derogatory way) language should be an indication of how non-consistent your people have been as an ethnic group.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Droog
        Member
        • Mar 2011
        • 120

        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        Your highly bastardised (look the word up, I don't mean it in a derogatory way) language should be an indication of how non-consistent your people have been as an ethnic group.
        Actually that's a very outdated concept. Most Turkish loanwords have been removed and replaced since the 19th century.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13675

          Actually, it isn't. I don't recall mentioning Turkish loanwords as a significant factor, do you (even though most of your kinsmen have Turkish or Arabic first and last names)? Try seeing how many Slavic, Greek and Latin words there are, I can assure you that they collectively outweigh the 'Shqipe' words in your language. Or perhaps you too were having a Mein Kampf moment by referring to the 'consistency' of Albanian ethnicity since antiquity?
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Epirot
            Member
            • Mar 2010
            • 399

            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            That 'plethora' of information doesn't go against what I suggested before, namely, that Albanians spread to these regions as a result of the Ottoman Empire. And that fact is evidenced in the texts you provided, as the Albanians living around Morava or Nish were all Muslims. There is no evidence of permanent Albanian habitation in these regions prior to the Ottomans and the conversion of your people (at least most of them) to Islam. If you think you're able to prove otherwise, I am happy to here your arguments.
            But then how do you explain the common similarities found between Albanian and Rumanian. The very fact that Albanians and Rumanians share either linguistic and cultural components has lead many scholars to suggest that Albanians and proto-Rumanians shared a common frontier at least since Roman period. This smash the blatant myth of Albanian arrival in Kosova and adjecant areas.



            As you can see from the above map, the Albanian presence (namely in Morava valley) is quite close with the Rumanian speaking areas (Vlachs of Nishava and Timok valley). This long vicinity between two peoples was snapped when Serbian conquering armies took the control of Toplica region (inhabited by Albanians).

            The sources you posted from the Serbian authors are interesting though, thanks for that.
            You're welcome! In fact, I have to research much more in my data base because I collected a lot of similar documents (written by Serb intellectuals) pointing out the same story as Greece's case.

            Epirot, that sounds like something extracted straight out of Mein Kampf. Your highly bastardised (look the word up, I don't mean it in a derogatory way) language should be an indication of how non-consistent your people have been as an ethnic group
            I would be the last man in earth to maintain Nazistic doctrines about racial purity and other craps. I apologize if my post was perceived so. Albanians as every Balkans people received certain foreign ingridents (linguistic borrowings, etc, etc). But Albanian people in its genesis was not emerged by absorption of foreign peoples. For instance, the Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks emerged as nations (of course with the generous helps of Europe) by assimilating various Orthodox peoples.
            Therefore my point was that Albanians and Serbs are totally different stories...I mean they differs in their consolidation as nations.
            Last edited by Epirot; 05-02-2011, 08:20 AM.
            IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13675

              Originally posted by Epirot
              But then how do you explain the common similarities found between Albanian and Rumanian.
              Define those similarities, I have often heard of them, but aside from a few common lexical examples, I can't seem to find anything on the internet. Please use verifiable examples also, and if you're going to refer to an Illyro-Dacian link from antiquity, then be specific, cite words present in today's Albanian, Romanian - and Illyrian or Dacian. Let's see how many there are.
              The very fact that Albanians and Rumanians share either linguistic and cultural components has lead many scholars to suggest that Albanians and proto-Rumanians shared a common frontier at least since Roman period.
              That doesn't necessarily mean that the Albanian side of that frontier was west of Romania. It could also have been east of Romania, which opens up the possibility of Proto-Albanian speakers migrating westwards across Dacia and the Balkans. I will wait for you to respond with details regarding the suggested commonalities between Albanians and Romanians, before I provide my opinion.
              As you can see from the above map, the Albanian presence (namely in Morava valley) is quite close with the Rumanian speaking areas (Vlachs of Nishava and Timok valley). This long vicinity between two peoples was snapped when Serbian conquering armies took the control of Toplica region (inhabited by Albanians).
              Actually, you're timing is wrong, because Slavic-speakers lived in those areas well before that map was produced. I don't think you responded to my previous question - where are all of the Albanian place-names in these areas?
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Epirot
                Member
                • Mar 2010
                • 399

                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                Define those similarities, I have often heard of them, but aside from a few common lexical examples, I can't seem to find anything on the internet. Please use verifiable examples also, and if you're going to refer to an Illyro-Dacian link from antiquity, then be specific, cite words present in today's Albanian, Romanian - and Illyrian or Dacian. Let's see how many there are.

                ?
                Actually, this matter is very complex since no general study has been made yet. Scholars who have made such claims were concentrated only in some points: cultural, linguistic, etc. However, I'll try in following to extract some significative details that may throw some lights in this problem.

                Albanians and Romanians have always been neighbors, except during the Slavic dominance. Their close ties reveal themselves in language, folklore, customs, traditions, clothing, and toponymy. In his work titled “Rumanische Toponomastik” (1924), Iorgu Iordan gives names that are direly linked to the Albanian, such as Arbănaşi (in Buzău), Arnăutul (Negru), Fāntāna Arnăutului, Movila Arnăutului, Arnaut Bostan-Dere (in Constantza), etc. Some authors believe that arbănaş also means Aromanian. Daco-Romans from Muntenia and Moldavia often referred to Aromanians as Albanians, because they came from the Albanian provinces, as they did in Bulgaria. It is similarly known that Albanians who settled in Romania in centuries past were known to the locals as arnăuţi and even Turks. The Romanian toponymy has a number of words other than arbănaşi and arnăut which relate to the Albanian toponymy. The Romanian-Albanian ties have remarkable features that relate to time, space, history, social-psychology, religion, culture, and art.

                In short (scurt in Romanian, shkurtimisht in Albanian), Albanians and Romanians have developed commonalities in terms of spirituality, language, history, and ethnography over our multi-century civilization. Folk dances, national costumes, and behavior are all proof of their brotherhood; we may call Albanians our co-nationals who say fort bukur for foarte frumos (English translation: very beautiful).

                According to Nicolae Iorga, “the Romanians’ and the Albanians’ foundation are the Illyrian-Thracian-Dacian tribes which inhabited the Balkan Peninsula and later crossed the Danube, took the name of Getae and Dacians, and later spread all over Transylvania.”

                In a paper discussing Romanian-Albanian links, the editor-in-chief of a Bucharest magazine wrote, using the pseudonym Boirevista, that “There is no element in present day Romania towards which we have more affection than is the Albanian element, for it is more than twenty centuries old.” Within the Balkan language family, Albanian and Romanian are closely related. “This relatedness manifests itself in phonetics, morphology, syntax construction, phraseology, the formation of words, vocabulary.” In a paper about the origin of common linguistic elements, independent trajectories, and distinct Thracian-Dacian or Thracian-Illyrian inheritances, Professor Grigore Brāncuş underlined that “the Romanian and Albanian languages are related through a sublayer which is the source of common innovations. manian-Albanian and Thracian-Illyrian relations are ancient; for this reason, there are many similarities, parallels, interlinkages in terms of spiritual and cultural life.

                http://www.zemrashqiptare.net/article/english/10194/
                About 300 words found only in Romanian or with a cognate in the Albanian language may be inherited from Dacian, many of them being related to pastoral life (for example: balaur "dragon", brānză "cheese", mal "shore"). Some linguists have asserted that Albanians are Dacians who were not romanized and migrated southward.[43]

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language
                That doesn't necessarily mean that the Albanian side of that frontier was west of Romania. It could also have been east of Romania, which opens up the possibility of Proto-Albanian speakers migrating westwards across Dacia and the Balkans.
                I've thought also for this possible scenario but I did not find any supportive evidence to back it up! The well-known Romanian historian I.I. Russu proposed a possible idea that Albanians may have orgniated from Carpi that were pushed from Hunnic and Slavic pressures. He went as far as to suggest that their tribal name is Albanian (Carpi <---> alb. Karpė, rock). I've dedicated much of my time in the study of Carpi culture but I haven't detected any resemblance with Albanian one. If our ancestors came really from Carpi region, then we would be called ourselves as Carpi, Dacians, etc not as Albanians. It is more plausible that proto-Albanians were not distant from western Rumania (Timoko Valley and adjecant areas). This place Albanians in the region of Dardania...so the fact that Albanians were able to influenced linguistically Proto-Romanians and at the same time to adopt Dacian elements indicate that Albanians from the remote antiquity were present in today's Kosova. So, the hypothesis of any Albanian arrival in Kosova cannot be sustained for the above reasons.

                Actually, you're timing is wrong, because Slavic-speakers lived in those areas well before that map was produced. I don't think you responded to my previous question - where are all of the Albanian place-names in these areas
                Well...what are your evidences to support your claim that Slavic-speakers lived previously in those areas? About your request for any Albanian place-names in these areas, I can find out a lot of them:

                Vendbanime me A:
                Alikinci, Alabana ,Arbanashka, Arbanashci, Araqa, Hasanovci (edhe Asanovic).

                Vendbanime me B:
                Balltiqi, Barllova, Bajshtica e Epėrme, Bajshtica e Poshtme, Balinovci, Baca, Banjska, Bajqiqi, Bajqinca, Buci, Borova, Banja e Repanjės, Bajqinovci, Bardyzi, Banja, Babviqevci, Babatica, Babishevci, Banjabara, Bajra, Batushica, Barlova, Berila, Bedila, Bellanica, Belibregu, Bellotini, Bellobregu, Bellanovci, Berxhika, Beselica, Berbatofci, Bellpola, Belegu, Bubavci, Berjana, Beashtica e Poshtme, Binovci, Bllaca, Boka, Borovci, Borinci, Bojniku, Bunovci, Bogujevci, Bujanovci, Bugujevci (nė rrethin e Jabllanicės), Buzhurana, Breznica, Bresternavi, Brallova, Brajshori, Branina, Bresi, Brezniqiqi, Breznica, Bullatovci, Buqinca, Bublica, Bufca, Burevica, Burinci, Budeci, Bumbereku, Bullaini, Bukollrami, Bukozhani, Bukovagllava, Bushtrani, Buqinca, Byqmeti i Epėrm, Byqmeti i Poshtėm, Byqmeti i Mesėm, Bugunuvci.

                Vendbanime me C:
                Cervaneku, Cernoverni, Cerrcavci i Epėrm, Cerrcavci i Poshtėm, Cerrnatova;

                Vendbanime me Ē:
                Ēestelina, Ēiftliku, Ēokoti, (njė ne qarkun e Nishit e njė nė Jabllanicė), Ēukovci.

                Vendbanime me D:
                Dankoviqi, Devotini, Dedinca, Devqa e Epėrme, Degermeni, Dediqi, Dekutina, Deshullovci, Dedishka, Dikovci, Dllugojnica, Dobratiqi, Debrejance, Dobrasheva, Dobridolli, Dragideli, Dragusha e Epėrme, Dragusha e Poshtme, Dranica, Dragobuzhda, Draganci, Drevina, Drenova, Drenci, Drenovci, Dubrava, Dubranja, Dubnica, Durnjaci, Dubova, Dugidelli, Dugolluka, Dublica, Dukati, Drugalevci, Dubulevi.

                Vendbanime me G:
                Gazdara, Gajtani, Gabinca, Graica, Granica, Gesolica, Gegla, Gerguri (nė Jabllanicė), Gerguri (nė rrethin tė Prokuples), Gojnofci, Gopnja, Gollaku, Govori, Grabofci, Gragoqevci, Grabovica, Gerbafci, Grebolica, Gllasoviku, Gllasnoviqi, Gradni, Gunjaraku, Gurivica, Gubetini, Gurgurofci, Gurgurova, Gurgora.

                Vendbanime me Gj:
                Gjemnica, Gjelekari, Gjelekara, Gjaka e Epėrme, Gjaka e Poshtme, Gjukella, Gjorgjefci, Gjushica, Gjingjusha, Gjurkofci, Gjurefci, Gjikolli, Gjurgjefci.

                Vendbanime me H:
                Hergaja, Huruglica e Epėrme, Huruglica e Poshtme.

                Vendbanime me I:
                Igrishta (e Vranjės), Igrishta (e Pusta Rekes), Ivankulla, Ivanja, Izumna.

                Vendbanime me J:
                Jabuqa, Jakofci, Jashanica e Epėrme, Jashanica e Poshtme, Jellashinca.

                Vendbanime me K':
                Kamenica, Katundmorina (rrethi i Nishit), Komotena, Kumareva, Kallabofci, Katuni, Kacabaqi, Katiqi, Kapiti, Klaiqi, Klisurica, Konjufci, Koprani, Konxheli, Korbevci, Kodra, Konjuva, Konjuhi, Kojqiqi, Koqane, Kremenata, Kertoku, Krivaqa, Krushevica, Kerqmara e Epėrme, Kerqmara e Poshtme, Kovanlloku, Kutllovci i Epėrm, Kutllovci i Poshtėm, Kuqi, Krushevica, Kutllova, Kutllat, Kozmaqi, Koznica, Kordinci i Poshtėm, Kordinci i Epėrm, Kastrati, Kallabovci, Kalimanca, Koshareva, Konjina.

                Vendbanime me L:
                Legatica, Lebofci, Levqa e Epėrme, Lebana, Leci, Leskovabara, Lepanja, Leboshtica, Letovnishte, Leturna ,Lumeqi, Lepenica, Lipovica, Lusha.

                Vendbanime me Ll:
                Llallinca, Llazalla, Llapashtica, Llozana, Llozna, Llopetinca, Llugiqi, Llumnica, Llukova, Llugari.

                Vendbanime me M:
                Manistirishta, Masurica, Magashi, Mazareqi, Maleivci, Makovci, Magova, Magarenja, Marovci, Maqedonci, Maqestena, Magjera, Maqina, Maqkovci, Matarova, Matajevci i Madh, Matajevci i Vogėl, Merqezi, Megja, Maqkovci, Mekishi, Merofci, Mesgraja, Megjuana, Mehanja, Mealica, Mernica, Medveci, (Merqa, Mellova, Merveshi, Mekishi, Meshica, Merkonja, Merlaku, Merkoviqi), tė gjithė kėta emra nė kllapa janė me e paza pas M, Megjurova, Milina, Miroqica, Mikullofci, Mikulani, Mirovci, Miroshevci, Milivojci, Miskiqi, Mirosllavi, Mirinca, Mihalica, Molla e Kuqe, Momqilli, Mugosha, Muzaqa, Muqena, Muleviqi.

                Vendbanime me N:
                Novosella, Neredovci i Epėrm, Neredovci i Poshtėm, Negosavla, Novosella (nėqarkune e Toplicės), Novosella (nė qarkune e Vranjės), Neveda, Nelaku, Nesushta.

                Vendbanime me O:
                Orlishte, Orana, Orlana, Oraqi, Obertinca, Obllaqina, Ostrogllava, Obarda, Orashci.

                Vendbanime me P:
                Paqarada, Parada, Pasjaqa, Pasjaqa (Nish), Pavllovci, Pallata, Pashici, Petrovci, Pevatica, Perunika, Pestishi, Pestini, Petrila, Pertata, Peqenci, Pokofci, Pervetica, Peroshtica, Pllana e Madhe, Pllana e Vogėl, Plakova, Plloqniku, (pėrkatesisht Pllashniku i Epėrm), Pllashniku i Poshtėm, Poterzhani, Popovci, Popova, Poturqoi, Pareqi, Pollomi, Pollomi (nė qarkun e Vranjės), Pollomi (nė qarkun e Prokuples), Prebeza e Epėrme, Prebeza e Poshtme, Prekoqna, Pretreshnja, Prekodelli, Prekedini, Prevallci, Preboji, Preseka, Prekopqellnika, Prekopuca, Prekorogja, Prekashtica, Preobrazhenja, Preopollci, Piskala, Pishteva, Pustoshillova, Pustovojllovci, Pukovci, Pupovica.

                Vendbanime me Q:
                Qyqalla, Qunglla.

                Vendbanime me R:
                Radeci, Radovci, Rabovci, Rafuna, Rakovica, Rashka, Rashica, Rastelica, Raqa, Rasuhaqa, Ramabaja, Ramnishta, Ravnishori, Ravnareka, Rashevci, Rataji, Rastavica, Rumanovci, Raputofci, Rastavica, Rasturrula, Ragjenovci, Radinovci, Ramadeni, Relinci, Reēica e Epėrme, Reēica e Poshtme (nė Toplic), Teēica e Leskovcit, Retkoceri i Epėrm, Retkoceri i Poshtėm, Resinci, Ribinci, Rudari, Rukofci, Runjiku, Rubofci.

                Vendbanime me S:
                Samakova, Sellova, Seoce, Sekicolli, Seqinica, Selishta, Sekiraqa, Sllavnica, Sllamniku ,Sllabniku, Sllatina, Siarina, Slishani, Slivnica, Slivova, Simnica, Sinanova, Sodarca, Skobari, Skoverqa, Statovci, Stublla, Stashillova, Starasella, Starobanja, Surdulica, Suvidolli, Suvojnica, Suvamorava, Sudimla, Svinjisishte, Sfirca, Svinjarina, Sfarqa e Epėrme, Sfarqa e Poshtme, Sagonjeva, Samarinci, Sagorjeva, Studenci, Spanca, Smrdani, Stropska, Smiloviqi, Stullca.

                Vendbanime me Sh:
                Sharprinci, Shahiqi, Shqrrlinci, Shahinovci, Shatra e Epėrme, Shatra e Poshtme, Sharci, Shanalluka, Shuliqi, (pėrkatesisht: Shylyshi), Shillova, Shipovci, Shishmanovci, Shirokonjeva, Shulemaja, Shushnjaku, Shtullca.

                Vendbanime me T:
                Talirofci, Terstena, Ternava e Poshtme, Ternave e Epėrme, Ternava (Nish), (Terpeza, Terrha, Termkolli, Terbunja e Epėrme, Terbunja e Poshtme, Ternavillazi) tė gjithė kėta emra nė kllapa janė me e-paza pas T, Tena, Tihofci, Toqani, Toverlani, Toshi, Topllaci, Topanica, Togaqevci, Treqaku, Trebinja, Tullari (Jabllanic), Tullari (Prokuple), Tmava, Turjana, Tupalla, Tupalla (Nish), Turqica, Tubuzhde.

                Vendbanime me U:
                Umi, Uzllok, Ushi.

                Vendbanime me V:
                Vardeniku, Vardini, Vasiqevci, (Verbica, Verbova, Verbovci, Vertopi) tė gjithė kėta emra nė kllapa janė me e-paza pas V, Vrella, Vagermeni, Veqa, Vllasa e Epėrme, Vuqaku, Vishesella, Vitosha, Vllahinja, Vllasa (e Prokuplės), Vllasa (e qarkut tė Vranjės), Vllahova, Vova, Vojllovci i Epėrm, Vodica, Vojiznova, Verbovci i Epėrm, Vrezhina e Poshtme, Visoka, Vershefci, Vranovci, Vuqjaku, Vukojefci, Vuqa, Vujanova, Vujiznova (Nish).

                Vendbanime me Z:
                Zagragja, Zaravinja, Zllatokoni, Zakishenje, Zuqa, Zllata, Zubuvci, Zebica.

                Vendbanime me Zh:
                Zhapska, Zhegrova, Zhdelova, Zhinipotoku, Zhitorogja, Zhuqa, Zhuqi.

                Qytete:
                Prokupla, Kushumlia, Leskoci, Vranja, Nishi, Sharqoj, Sheherqoj (Piroti), Bellapallanka, Tėrni.
                P.S: Some of them were probably Slavic but doesn't mean that they were peopled by Slavic-speakings.

                This thread is getting interesting because it's a great opportunity to reveal our knowledge and research there! It's more than welcomed your contribution!
                Last edited by Epirot; 05-03-2011, 06:30 AM.
                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13675

                  Originally posted by Epirot
                  Actually, this matter is very complex since no general study isn't made yet. Scholars who have made such claims were concentrated only in some points: cultural, linguistic, etc.
                  So why have you cited it in support of your argument, if you aren't able to adequately elaborate?
                  In his work titled “Rumanische Toponomastik” (1924), Iorgu Iordan gives names that are direly linked to the Albanian, such as Arbănaşi (in Buzău), Arnăutul (Negru), Fāntāna Arnăutului, Movila Arnăutului, Arnaut Bostan-Dere (in Constantza), etc.
                  I doubt any of them were there prior to the Ottoman Empire.
                  Folk dances, national costumes, and behavior are all proof of their brotherhood................Within the Balkan language family, Albanian and Romanian are closely related. “This relatedness manifests itself in phonetics, morphology, syntax construction, phraseology, the formation of words, vocabulary"...........Professor Grigore Brāncuş underlined that “the Romanian and Albanian languages are related through a sublayer which is the source of common innovations. manian-Albanian and Thracian-Illyrian relations are ancient; for this reason, there are many similarities, parallels, interlinkages in terms of spiritual and cultural life.
                  I have never seen such claims as the above corroborated in detail. And the suggestion of a Thraco-Illyrian link is dubious on linguistic grounds, because (attested) Thracian and Illyrian combined share far more lexical similarities with Balto-Slavic languages than they do with Albanian and/or Romanian.
                  About 300 words found only in Romanian or with a cognate in the Albanian language may be inherited from Dacian, many of them being related to pastoral life (for example: balaur "dragon", brānză "cheese", mal "shore"). Some linguists have asserted that Albanians are Dacians who were not romanized and migrated southward.
                  All speculative without any further elaboration. Furthermore, I doubt there are many words which are common to Albanian, Romanian and Thracian or Illyrian. Happy to see any evidence to the contrary.
                  It is more plausible that proto-Albanians were not distant from western Rumania (Timoko Valley and adjecant areas). This place Albanians in the region of Dardania...so the fact that Albanians were able to influenced linguistically Proto-Romanians and at the same time to adopt Dacian elements indicate that Albanians from the remote antiquity were present in today's Kosova....
                  Why is it plausible? What Dacian 'elements' have Albanians adopted? When and from whom, the Dacians or Romanians? Your reasoning thus far, although it may sound good to yourself as an Albanian, is not at all convincing.
                  Well...what are your evidences to support your claim that Slavic-speakers lived previously in those areas?
                  You can start with the fact that Slavic place-names, hydronyms, etc far outnumber and predate Albanian and Turkish ones in the region. Those areas, like most of the Balkans, were generally controlled by Slavic-speaking peoples from the 6th century, and that remained the case until the Ottomans invaded.
                  About your request for any Albanian place-names in these areas, I can find out a lot of them:
                  Do you have a link? Which particular areas are those place-names located in, and when were they recorded?
                  P.S: Some of them were probably Slavic but doesn't mean that they were peopled by Slavic-speakings.
                  Some of them? Epirot, most of them are place-names in Slavic languages, so most would be peopled (or would have been at some point) by Slavic-speaking peoples.
                  This thread is getting interesting because it's a great opportunity to reveal our knowledge and research there! It's more than welcomed your contribution!
                  Likewise, look forward to your response to the above.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Onur
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2010
                    • 2389

                    Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                    This thread is getting interesting because it's a great opportunity to reveal our knowledge and research there! It's more than welcomed your contribution!
                    OK, here is my contribution;

                    You cant reach to any point with Albanian-Romanian connection because it`s genetically, historically and linguistically proven that today`s Latin like speaking Romanians/Vlachs are nothing but various Balkanic people who has been assimilated by Latin people. Most probably their linguistic assimilation has been completed soon after crusader raids around 13th century.

                    So, in regards to genetics, Romanians are relatives of literally all current Balkanic peoples. The closest relatives of them are probably Hungarians but i also saw some DNA researches who finds genetic similarity between Turks and Romanians. So, in genetics wise, They are various Balkanic people who shows minor resemblances with medieval Latins.

                    So, your Albanian connection with Romanians doesn't prove anything because literally every Balkanic people connected with them, both linguistically and genetically.


                    Also, I have read another interesting similarity between Albanians and Romanians b4. AFAIK, Albanian language has much more Latin words and grammatical forms than any other Balkan language and most likely Albanian language adopted these Latin forms, words before 20th century. So in that sense, we can say that Latins has been fully assimilated Romanians/Vlachs in linguistic wise but Albanian language also shows traces of similar linguistic shift(or assimilation, change, whatever you call) in medieval era, not evident as Romanian language tough. Genetics wise, Albanian people has no relation at all with Latin peoples, just like Romanians. Ofc Albanians are genetically related with other Balkanic people again.
                    Last edited by Onur; 05-03-2011, 12:38 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13675

                      Here is a text of an article regarding Albanians in Romania:
                      An Albanian community inside the Danubian Principalities was first attested in Wallachia under Prince Michael the Brave: a report drafted by Habsburg authorities in Transylvania specified that 15,000 Albanians had been allowed to cross north of the Danube in 1595; Călineşti (a village in present-day Floreşti, Prahova County) was one of their places of settlement, as evidenced in a document issued by Michael's rival and successor, Simion Movilă, who confirmed their right to reside in the locality. The community's presence was first recorded in Bucharest around 1628. In Moldavia, an ethnic Albanian, Vasile Lupu, became Prince in 1634.

                      The Albanian community was strengthened during the Phanariote epoch, when numerous immigrants opened businesses in a large number of cities and towns, and were employed as bodyguards of Wallachian princes and boyars (being usually recorded as arbănaşi, akin to Arvanites, and its variant arnăuţi, borrowed from the Turkish arnaut). In 1820, a survey indicated that there were 90 traders from the Rumelian town of Arnaut Kioy present in the Wallachian capital, most of whom were probably Albanians and Aromanians.
                      As can be seen, Albanian influence in the region of Dacia begins from the 16th century - during Ottoman times, as I had suggested previously. As the favoured mercenaries of the Ottomans, Albanians were able to spread out across the empire in such a way - all thanks to the Turks. Take note also of the fact that several thousand Albanians settled north of the Danube. Now see the below from an article regarding the Romanian language:
                      ......the first printed book of Romanian grammar in 1780, by Samuil Micu and Gheorghe Șincai. There, the Romanian dialect spoken north of the Danube is called lingua Daco-Romana to emphasize its origin and its area of use, which includes the former Roman province of Dacia (though it is spoken also south of the Danube, in Dobrudja, Central Serbia and northern Bulgaria).
                      Albanian has been recorded in written form no earlier than the 15th century, whereas Romanian was first attested in written texts from the 16th century, and its first grammar was printed in the 18th century. All of this happened during the Ottoman period (note: although the first text in Albanian was just prior to the fall of Skenderbeg's realm, it was a mere baptismal sentence, so not that informative).

                      Could the linguistic commonalities between Albanian and Romanian have resulted from interaction during Ottoman times? I would like to see how one would argue against such an assertion.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        The below is in relation to a proposed link between Albanian and Indo-Iranian.



                        Albanian language forms its own branch of the Indo-European family and is not closely related to any other Indo-European languages. This complicates attempts to trace the origin of the Albanians further. A study published in Nature in 2003 tentatively put Albanian in the Indo-Iranian branch, but with a high degree of uncertainty.
                        Gray RD, Atkinson QD (2003) Language-tree divergence times support Anatolian theory of Indo-European origins. Nature 426:435-439.
                        Here is something else about Albanian and Iranian:
                        http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...edonia&f=false

                        It (Ossetic) has taken on many features of the neighbouring Caucasian languages, such as glottalized consonants and a system of nine cases in the noun. It has also preserved the inherited subjunctive and optative as distinct moods, making it one of the rare modern languages to do so (the others being Albanian and one or two other Iranian languages).
                        And something further to that:
                        Iranian studies in Albania although not academically pursued, have always enjoyed Albanian people interest. The diffusion of Persian literature and culture in Albania is closely linked with the presence of Ottoman Empire in Albania and with the heavy influence Persian culture exerted on the ottoman administration and Turkish culture of the era. Another key factor in the popularisation of the Persian culture among Albanians is also the expansion of Islam in the territories lived by Albanians during the XVI-XVII centuries. Meanwhile, during the XIX century Persian language was widely used among Albanian intellectuals.

                        Naim and Sami Frashėri, two famous Albanian writers, were among the most prominent scholars of the oriental and Iranian studies in Albania. Naim Frashėri has published two books in Persian language: the first one named “Grammar of the Persian language” was published in Turkey, in 1871, while the second one, a compilation of poems in Persian language, named “Tehajjulat” was published in Turkey, in 1885, representing a cornerstone for the Persian literature and culture in Albania.

                        Other prominent personalities of iranology in Albania include: Vexhi Buharaja, candid translator into Albanian language of many Persian books (such as “Gjylistani dhe Bostani” “3500 verses from Shahname”, etc), Tahir Dizdari, author of an important dictionary “Persian words in Albanian language”, Hafiz Ali Korca and Fan Noli, with his brilliant translation of Omar Khajam’s famous “quatrains”, Dalan Shapllo, scholar, writer and translator of Hafiz Shirazi’s mystical poems and many more contemporaneous Albanian linguists, scholars and writers.

                        A precious contribution to the tightening of the cultural links between Albania and Iran has made the first Iranian organisation established in Albania – Cultural Iranian Foundation “Saadi Shirazi”, founded in Tirana, in 1996. During the same year, was issued the first edition of the scientific magazine “Perla (the Perl)”, dedicated to the scientific research and study of Iranology. In 2001, in Tirana, was opened the first non-public school, College “Saadi”. The contribution of this school in the pre-university education of the Albanian-speaking young students, has received considerable recognition.

                        Meanwhile, today’s establishment of the “Firdeusi” Institute for Iranian and Persian Studies, marks an important development in the field of Persian research and study in Albania.
                        Most of those words may have come into Albanian during the Ottoman period, but I am curious to know just what sort of grammatical, syntax, etc similarities there are between Albanian and Persian, and if any of them are of a fundamental nature. Basically - what separates Albanian from other Indo-European languages and what classifies it as a separate linguistic branch of IE?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Epirot
                          Member
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 399

                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          So why have you cited it in support of your argument, if you aren't able to adequately elaborate?[/
                          I doing my best to explain it in a concise terms...

                          And the suggestion of a Thraco-Illyrian link is dubious on linguistic grounds, because (attested) Thracian and Illyrian combined share far more lexical similarities with Balto-Slavic languages than they do with Albanian and/or Romanian.
                          Why do you suspect the Thraco-Illyrian linguistic links? In the linguistic circles, the Thraco-Illyrian linguistic group is widely accepted, even though there are some attempts to reject this because according to their arguments, Illyrian belongs to the "C"(entum) languages, while Thracian to the 'S' (atem) ones. But, Thracians and Illyrians were not distant lingustically from one another, so both languages were mutually intelegible, I guess. In Balkans exists a wider zone, stretching from Upper Danube up to the Axius river, when Thracians and Illyrians intermingled with one another. I really do not know much things about Balto-Slavic lexical similarities with Thraco-Illyrian, but I can say that Albanian in geograhical terms is emerged in a zone, where initially lived Illyrian and Thracian tribes, so it is more representative of them than Balto-Slavic group languages.

                          Furthermore, I doubt there are many words which are common to Albanian, Romanian and Thracian or Illyrian. Happy to see any evidence to the contrary.
                          See this...

                          A hypothesis that the Thracian and the Albanian language are kindred languages remains one of the major current theories, although contested. There are cognates between Thracian and Albanian, but this may indicate only language interaction between the groups and not language affinity.[13] There have been significant changes in the Albanian language since Thracian times, and a Thracian link is difficult to demonstrate. Still, the relation of Thracian to Albanian is given much consideration even today.

                          Among the cognates between Thracian and Albanian: the Thracian inscription mezenai on the Duvanli gold ring has been unanimously linked to Messapian menzana (=horse deity) to Albanian mėz (=pony), as well as to Romanian mānz (=colt), and it is agreed that Thracian mezenai meant 'horseman'; Thracian manteia is supposed to be cognate to Albanian mand (=mulberry). It may also be connected to the Slavic mantija (=cloak). Sorin Paliga, a linguist at the academy of Bucharest, recently linked Romanian buză (=lip) and Albanian buzė (=lip) to the Thracian personal names Buzas, Buzo, Buzes. This word also exists in Bulgarian where it means 'cheek', in Serbian obraz means 'cheek', in Macedonian with the meaning of 'lip', and in Polish buzia where it means 'mouth' or 'lips'.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classif...acian#Albanian
                          Why is it plausible? What Dacian 'elements' have Albanians adopted? When and from whom, the Dacians or Romanians? Your reasoning thus far, although it may sound good to yourself as an Albanian, is not at all convincing.
                          The common words that exists both in Albanian and Rumanian are thought to be inherited from Dacian.

                          Dacian language is also known through about 1,150 proper names[8][12]), about 900 toponyms.[8] Finally, there are few hundreds words in modern Albanian and Romanian languages, which were often suggested to originate in ancient languages like Dacian (see List of Romanian words of possible Dacian origin).

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language#Illyrian
                          Last edited by Epirot; 05-04-2011, 04:52 AM.
                          IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                          Comment

                          • Epirot
                            Member
                            • Mar 2010
                            • 399

                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            As can be seen, Albanian influence in the region of Dacia begins from the 16th century - during Ottoman times, as I had suggested previously. As the favoured mercenaries of the Ottomans, Albanians were able to spread out across the empire in such a way - all thanks to the Turks. Take note also of the fact that several thousand Albanians settled north of the Danube.
                            It would be better to re-read your quoted extract because there is no mention that these Albanians were settled in Walachia from Turks. The Wallachian royal authorities probably voluntarily accepeted this wave of Albanian orthodox emigrants. As far as I know, most of Albanians in Rumania were (and still are) of Orthodox faith. So I'm asking myself why Ottomans 'settled' Albanian Orthodoxes instead of Muslim Albanians!? If Albanians were settled in Rumania as colonizers of Turks, then they would be the ruling class there. This wasn't the case. In your source we read the following: The Albanian community was strengthened during the Phanariote epoch, when numerous immigrants opened businesses in a large number of cities and towns, and were employed as bodyguards of Wallachian princes and boyars.
                            Later on, the majority of Orthodox Albanians of Rumania were engaged mostly in the trade with Danubian areas. What is more funny, they were often called as 'Greeks' . By the way, thanks for posting the above passage...

                            Could the linguistic commonalities between Albanian and Romanian have resulted from interaction during Ottoman times? I would like to see how one would argue against such an assertion
                            In a certain degree yes but these linguistic commonalities obviosuly start in an earlier time, at least from Roman period.

                            Albanian has been recorded in written form no earlier than the 15th century, whereas Romanian was first attested in written texts from the 16th century, and its first grammar was printed in the 18th century. All of this happened during the Ottoman period (note: although the first text in Albanian was just prior to the fall of Skenderbeg's realm, it was a mere baptismal sentence, so not that informative).
                            We aren't that sure if the first written text in Albanian belongs to the 15th century. I find very siginificative the following quote of Scanderbeg: "If our chronicles do not lie, we call ourselves as Epirotes". To what chronicles was Scanderbeg refereing to? So there are possibilities that Albanian texts were written even be4 Scanderbeg!
                            Last edited by Epirot; 05-04-2011, 06:30 AM.
                            IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                            Comment

                            • Epirot
                              Member
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 399

                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Epirot, check the below link for a Thracian glossary.



                              Are you able to explain why the majority of the words listed have a cognate and etymology in the Balto-Slavic group of languages? And why Albanian examples fall far short?
                              The above link contains a very good summarization of Thracian glossary. Thanks for posting that!

                              To my humble opinion, Thracian had a great extension in Eastern Europe. The literary tradition asserts that some powerful Thracians tribes expanded themselves in what is today Eastern Europe.


                              According to this map, Thracian reaches up to the Baltic shores!!!

                              Let us not neglect the very fact that Thracian was very affected by Eastern borrowings. A number of toponymes found in Northern Thrace were of Scythian provenience. Correct if I am wrong? I do not know which one from you guys has posted a map of Thracian toponymes...and as far as I remind..there were some toponymes with Scythian features. Scythians were one of the mightiest people that extended themselves from Bactria (or some says from Northern India) up to the Danubian shores. They might have been the inter-mediators of Thracian words to proto-Slavs...
                              Last edited by Epirot; 05-04-2011, 11:29 AM.
                              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13675

                                Originally posted by Epirot
                                In the linguistic circles, the Thraco-Illyrian linguistic group is widely accepted........
                                No 'linguistic circles' have produced any convincing arguments in favour of Albanian being descended from Illyrian (or Thracian, for that matter). And if there was anything, you would have already posted it on this forum by now (given the previous discussions). The connection you speak of is basically limited to a handful of words, and for each correspondence that Albanian has with either Illyrian or Thracian, there are several more in Balto-Slavic.
                                I really do not know much things about Balto-Slavic lexical similarities with Thraco-Illyrian, but I can say that Albanian in geograhical terms is emerged in a zone, where initially lived Illyrian and Thracian tribes, so it is more representative of them than Balto-Slavic group languages.
                                That 'zone' must be Dardania (Kosovo), where Thracian and Illyrian tribes meet, but this 'emergence' you're referring to is questionable in terms of location. Nevertheless, even if that notion is entertained, it is only one zone. Balto-Slavic-speaking peoples live in the overwhelming majority of the territory (both south and north of the Danube) where Illyrians and Thracians lived. If anybody is representative on geographical grounds, it is them, and not the Albanians.
                                See this...
                                Not really much to see. For each of the Thracian words cited in that quote which may have an Albanian connection, there is a Balto-Slavic equivalent.
                                The common words that exists both in Albanian and Rumanian are thought to be inherited from Dacian.
                                That 'list' is speculative as there is nothing to link those words (or at least not most of them) to Dacian aside from historical revisionism - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but without further corroboration it means very little. Furthermore, several of those words appear to have cognates in Latin.
                                It would be better to re-read your quoted extract because there is no mention that these Albanians were settled in Walachia from Turks. The Wallachian royal authorities probably voluntarily accepeted this wave of Albanian orthodox emigrants.
                                Christian Albanians (like their Macedonian, Serbian, Bosnian, etc neighbours) did settled in Hapsburg lands to escape the Ottomans. But their numbers pale in comparison to their Islamic kinsmen who spread out across the Ottoman Empire. Either way, there is nothing to suggest an Albanian (Christian or Muslim) connection to Dacia prior to the 16th century - it all appears to have taken place during the Ottoman period.
                                In a certain degree yes but these linguistic commonalities obviosuly start in an earlier time, at least from Roman period.
                                I don't see anything 'obvious' about it. You haven't shown me anything that suggests an Albanian relationship with Romanian prior to the Ottoman Empire.
                                I find very siginificative the following quote of Scanderbeg: "If our chronicles do not lie, we call ourselves as Epirotes".
                                Where is that quote cited? I can't seem to find a source for it on the internet.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X