Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Originally posted by Epirot
    I just pointed out that those Slavic invasions touched less Albania because of its geographical position as being the most mountainous region in all Balkans.
    Epirot, a significant proportion of placenames in Albania have Macedonian and/or Serbian origins, there is no doubt that the region came under the heavy influence of Slavic-speaking groups.
    Any evidence about his father lineage coming from Kostur? Interestingly, his best biographer (Marin Barleti) never mention any indication of Kostur!
    How do you propose the surname Kastriot came about?
    I would now like to turn to the actual history of the Albanians and of the country they inhabit. They are the descendents of the ancient Illyrians, whereas their neighbours, the Vlachs, whose ancient history I will deal with later, are the children of the Thracians. I will try to prove these statements as best I can.

    1774
    Johann Thunmann:
    On the History and Language of the Albanians and Vlachs
    That's more like it, a pre 1800's reference to Albanians as Illyrians, this is the type of source material you need to produce, the earlier the period, the more solid your assertion. I have never read Johann Thunmann's works, so I am taking it at face value here, if there is a link to his complete works, please share it, as I would like to verify the quote to ensure that it is not a manipulation as the Wilkes quote(s) you previously supplied.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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    • Epirot
      Member
      • Mar 2010
      • 399

      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

      That is hard to confirm, and if it is accepted as a possibility, then so too must other suggestions, such as dardania meaning 'gift' or 'given gift'.
      Since I am not linguist I cannot reject your suggestion but it seems that has not any echo in proposal etymologies about Dardania's meaning. Edith Durham based his etymology (Dardania = Dardhė) in pears that are grown mostly in territories from Nish up to the Korēa valley, that corresponds roughly with the old Dardanian territory. She took as a witness of his proposition the pre-names of some Slavic cities like: Krushevac in Serbia (Krushko mean 'Pear') and even the name of Krushevo. She concluded that these names were nothing else but Slavic translation from original roots related with Dard (Dardhė).

      Is Dalmatia historically known as a place where flocks of sheep are bred? How has this conclusion been reached?
      Exactly for first hand sources:

      ...and also Dalmium (whence the name of the tribe), which was once a large city, but because of the greed of the people Nasica reduced it to a small city and made the plain a mere sheep-pasture.

      STRABO GEOGRAPHY Book VII, Chapter 5
      Other fertilisers originated from the dung of the cattle and sheep arriving by ship from Dalmatia, which were landed on the Lido, where they could pasture

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15307245
      In 1851 the number of the most important livestock were 21,997 horses, 84,139 head of cattle, 22,660 mules and donkeys, 621,805 sheep, 399,443 goats and 30,409 hogs. Fishery along the coast, especially for anchovis, mackerels and tuna, is very important and produces a good surplus. The land is poor in mineral products, the most important being lignite, asphalt, limestone and marble quarries. Industry, except for shipbuilding, is n a very low level. The most important import articles are grain, flour, cotton and woollen textiles, sail cloth, silk, cattle and tobacco; export articles are olive oil, fish, wine, sheeps dung, skins and hides, tallow, perfumes, horn and dyestuffs.

      http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/balkans/dalmenc19.html
      "Delmatia: delme,dele (sheep)"

      Dalmatia or Delmatia, which is of Arnautic origin, is "land of shepherds" (delminium — pasture for sheep).
      http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04606b.htm
      You mean Shar Planina? What does Shar mean in Albanian?
      The contemporary name of 'Sharr' is the same in Albanian (Sharr that is related with Sharrė). Probably it is just an evolution of Scardus that means 'saw' or something that is very sharp:



      The morphological terrain is often rugged or sharp tops.



      How do you know what Troy meant? Is it recorded anywhere?
      It just an etymology, SoM!
      Last edited by Epirot; 08-18-2010, 06:08 AM.
      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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      • slovenec zrinski
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 385

        They are bosnians and not albanians in Novi Pazar...

        And btw..good work on this thread SoM.

        Comment

        • Epirot
          Member
          • Mar 2010
          • 399

          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

          How do you propose the surname Kastriot came about?
          I'll try to translate a text that may answer to your specific question:

          Pėr herė tė parė pėrmendet njė Kastriot nė vitin 1368 si kėshtjellar i Kaninės. Ka studjues qė shohin te ky kėshtjellar njė paraardhės tė Kastriotėve tė mėvonshėm, qė ėshtė dėbuar nga pronat e veta. Njė mendim i tillė duhet pranuar si supozim, sepse nuk ka lidhje me tė dhėnat pėr Kastriotėt qė japin mė pas burimet historike. Prej disa familjeve shqiptare, qė emigruan nė Itali, Kastriotėt njihen edhe me njė mbiemėr tė dytė: Mazreku. Njė variant tjetėr ėshtė se ato vijnė nga zonat e Malėsisė, Kastrati.
          For the first time a Kastriot is recorded in 1368 in the castle of Kanina. Some scholars consider him as an ancestor of Kastrioti's family, who was expelled from his properties. But this opinion should be accepted just as an assumption because it has any link with the later data in historical sources about Kastrioti's tribe. When Albanians migrated into Italy, they were known also with their second surname: Mazreku. An another variant, is that they came from a highland region, Kastriot.
          if there is a link to his complete works, please share it, as I would like to verify the quote to ensure that it is not a manipulation
          Here you have it:

          IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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          • Epirot
            Member
            • Mar 2010
            • 399

            Originally posted by slovenec zrinski View Post
            They are bosnians and not albanians in Novi Pazar...
            There are Bosnized Albanians in Novi Pazar. A friend of mine has his relatives in Novi Pazar and they spoke fluently Albanian as their native language.
            IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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            • slovenec zrinski
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 385

              According to the latest census they are 90% bosniaks in the city of Novi Pazar...are you suggesting they are all bosnizised albanians? How did they become bosnizised and when?

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              • Epirot
                Member
                • Mar 2010
                • 399

                Originally posted by slovenec zrinski View Post
                According to the latest census they are 90% bosniaks in the city of Novi Pazar...are you suggesting they are all bosnizised albanians? How did they become bosnizised and when?
                Mostly after WWII when were closed Albanian schools and were left only mosques with Bosniak clerics. Sandjak people still maintain good relationship with Albanians.
                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                • slovenec zrinski
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 385

                  I simply do not believe you about this. According to the census in 1951 serbs constituted slightly above 50% of the population. Yugoslavs constituted 27% and turks 22%. I think you are doing the "greek thing" here in that you automatically consider moslems albanians like the greeks considered greek orthodox people in Macedonia to be greeks by ethnicity.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by Epirot
                    Edith Durham based his etymology (Dardania = Dardhė) in pears that are grown mostly in territories from Nish up to the Korēa valley, that corresponds roughly with the old Dardanian territory. She took as a witness of his proposition the pre-names of some Slavic cities like: Krushevac in Serbia (Krushko mean 'Pear') and even the name of Krushevo. She concluded that these names were nothing else but Slavic translation from original roots related with Dard (Dardhė).
                    Edith Durham was an Albanophile who spent most of her travels through the Balkans in Albania. She was not a linguist, and she bases her theory on that of J.G von Hahn, a philologist who became obsessed with all things Albanian. He was the first person to really elaborate on the proposition of the Albanians' supposed Illyrian 'origin'. I am positive that pears were/are also grown outside of historical Dardania, speaking of which, were Krushevo and Korche in Dardania?

                    With regard to Dalmatia, your example is more interesting, particularly two of the quotes that spoke of cattle in addition to sheep. The word for the young of cattle (calves) in Macedonian is 'tele' and the equivalent in Latvian, which belongs to the greater Balto-Slavic family, it is 'teļiem'. How would you use the word 'delme' in a sentence today? From what I can see, the Albanian word for sheep is either 'dhen' or 'dele'.
                    The contemporary name of 'Sharr' is the same in Albanian (Sharr that is related with Sharrė). Probably it is just an evolution of Scardus that means 'saw' or something that is very sharp
                    In Macedonian 'shar' means stripes or marks, it can also mean colourful if said as 'sharen'. This can be connected to rugged-looking terrain. How would you use 'sharre' in a sentence today?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      Originally posted by Epirot
                      When Albanians migrated into Italy, they were known also with their second surname: Mazreku. An another variant, is that they came from a highland region, Kastriot.
                      Where is that place?
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Epirot
                        Member
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 399

                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        I am positive that pears were/are also grown outside of historical Dardania, speaking of which, were Krushevo and Korche in Dardania?
                        For some period Korēa's plain was under Dardanian domination as many archeological findings had indicated (see Nicholas Hammond). Dardanians took possession of Lake Lyhnid and regions around itand possibly left some traces. I find as an interesting case some survival toponymes in Korēa like the name of a small village called Dardhė.

                        More about it geographical location:

                        KORĒĖ: Grammos Mountains (Mali i Grammozit), ca 3.8 km southwest of village Dardhė, northern slope of Mount.


                        How would you use the word 'delme' in a sentence today? From what I can see, the Albanian word for sheep is either 'dhen' or 'dele'.
                        You're right about two words that are used in Albanian to denote a 'sheep'. We usually use 'dhen' when we talks about sheeps (in plural) and 'dele' (in singular) or 'delet' in plural.

                        In Macedonian 'shar' means stripes or marks, it can also mean colourful if said as 'sharen'. This can be connected to rugged-looking terrain. How would you use 'sharre' in a sentence today?
                        It looks interesting that in both two languages the cognate words for Sharr mountain are connected somehow with its rugged relief. Now I remind that it is even an another similar world in Albanian with 'Sharr' as its root. We use for instance 'Sharroj' to say 'fell down'. An example:
                        Sharrova thellė nė njė pellg uji
                        I fell down deep in a puddle of water.

                        "Sharroj" is just a homonym with 'Sharroj' that mean /to cut down a tree/.
                        IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                        • Epirot
                          Member
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 399

                          An another etymology that calls for some attention is the name of Pelagonia. If this ancient name is a pre-Illyrian name (i.e Paeonian one) then it has a cognate word in Albanian which fits to the geographical nature of Pelagonia as a land of waters. Pelagonia can be related with Alb. 'pellg' (or pellgje in plural) that means "pool, puddle, backwater":





                          You know that Pelagonia encompassed a region that was full of lakes and rivers.

                          Lakes:

                          - Lake of Ohrid
                          - Lakes of Prespa
                          - Lake "Orestiada" (Λίμνη Ορεστιάδα)

                          Rivers:

                          -Haliacmon
                          etc.
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                          • Epirot
                            Member
                            • Mar 2010
                            • 399

                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Where is that place?
                            Kastrat is close to the Albanian-Montengrin boundary.

                            IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                            • Epirot
                              Member
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 399

                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Edith Durham was an Albanophile who spent most of her travels through the Balkans in Albania.
                              Taking in account some Albanian possibilities regarding some etymologies does not make anyone an Albanophile!
                              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                              • Sovius
                                Member
                                • Apr 2009
                                • 241

                                Epirot,
                                Let’s say we move beyond antiquated speculation for a bit and examine some concrete evidence:

                                identical place-names between Albania and Caucasus:

                                Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti
                                Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
                                Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
                                Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
                                Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
                                Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
                                Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
                                Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
                                Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
                                Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
                                Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea)
                                Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
                                Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
                                Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
                                Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
                                Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
                                Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
                                Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
                                Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
                                Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
                                Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli
                                Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria

                                Source:



                                (visit often, much to learn)



                                It would appear as though your strict argument allows you only two options:

                                Are you stating that the Ancient Illyrians migrated from the Caucasus region into Europe or are you stating that the Ancient Illyrians were a Caucasian language speaking people from the Balkans who conquered an entire region in Central Eurasia, yet left no trace of evidence that would suggest that they had ever done so, except for these place names?

                                It would be interesting to get your take on this conundrum here.

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