Greece, History, Truth

[Onur]

Turkish langauge ? Do you know before the Ataturk "cleansed" the language it was one of the most mixed languages in the region ? Are you kidding me ? What time frame are you referring to ? Another thing as well, people ought to stop commenting on how much Greek they know when they cant even speak, read or understand it. I was able to read everything Agamoi posted with ease and ppl are still clutching at straws here. Truth of the matter is Onur would have an impossible time reading, writing or even conversing in Ottoman. Unless he is famliar with it, and this is something that was told to me by a Turk. Unless he is wrong. You are in no way objective Makedoneche, you just like to hear what you want to hear.

You want from us to stop commenting about Greek language but yet you speak about Turkish in ottoman era without knowing anything about it.

Read my messages here if you wanna learn something about it b4 commenting;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=73699&postcount=38

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=73758&postcount=43

But i feel like you wont be bothered about it and prefer to blabber in ignorance instead.


It`s also so funny that we have numerous Hungarian linguists in Turkish universities who tries to analyze which words has been adopted by Hungarians and Turks, vice versa in about 150 years of Turkish rule in Hungary but we have you two here with British missioner traveler`s notes claiming that the only linguistic exchange between Turks and Greeks in about ~800 years of time was "anassinhy sictim of the Mahometans"

OK then, however you like, "anassinhy sictim of the Greeks" then!!! I am sure you understood that Voltron...

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

They are not ethno-linguistically Macedonian, they are geographically Macedonian. There is a clear difference, start applying it.

Agreed, I have not used geographic qualifiers in anyway.

Yes I do. Perhaps in the USA where you claim to originate from the scene is different, but in Australia most grkomani cannot speak Greek, instead they speak Macedonian, quite well in fact. It is largely the affinity they have with the Greek church that keeps them in a vortex of delusion about their supposed 'Hellenic' identity.

I was referring to the Ancient Macedonians, not Grkomani. There is no evidence to suggest that Ancient Macedonians spoke a different native language.

You seem to indicate as much everytime you claim them for the Hellenic nation in Greece.

No, Vlach is a blanket term. I said certain Vlach groups are not ethnic Vlach but Latinised Greeks.

Even in their own language the Bulgarians call themselves 'Bulgari' and not 'Bulgariani', this so-called Bulgar - Bulgarian identity "distinction" stems from today's Bulgarians trying to distance themselves from the Turkic origins of their namesake. To me, it is the same, if I need to make a distinction I will call the progenitors Turkic Bulgars. I don't consider the Serbs and the Serbians as different people either. Do you?

Serboi are Iranic. Serbians are not, but we use Serbs for short. Bulgarians are far from Turkic and nor do they do it on purpose. They are just as indeginous as the next in the Balkans and have a fair amount of Thracian background that they can claim.

That has nothing to do with your earlier assertion regarding Turkish 'oral traditions' about the Macedonians. You're all over the place.

It started out as Oral traditions which then I raised the example of Turks which you clarified of traditions that relate to descendents of Ancient Macedonians which in return I said the same...

Kote was a Macedonian who collaborated with the Patriarchists after previously being associated with VMRO, and paid the ultimate price for his betrayal - ironically, not from Macedonians but from that animal Karavangeli who basically gave him up to the authorities as a criminal.

He is a good example of how ethnicities can be changed on a drop of a dime. There was nothing solid back then to cling on.

This is exactly what I was talking about with regard to the cyclic games and time-wasting, like you don't know that Greek-speaking people identified as Romans for the better part of 2,000 years. It has nothing to do with conforming to my POV or having you agree with everything I say, which is another baseless and time-wasting assertion that is becoming quite the characteristic in you.

Agreed, I dont like cycles either. Of course I am aware of the Roman issue. I asked to what part exactly you were referring to in regards to the "transistion". Its an issue of semantics and to be quite frank, Im not to interested in it.

The Pella tablet is not proof of the ancient Macedonian language and does not exhibit its characteristics such as 'Bilon' instead of 'Philon'. It is an inscription written in Doric, simple.

Never said it was the smoking gun of proof. There are more examples of course such as the Phiale of Megara as well.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There is no evidence to suggest that Ancient Macedonians spoke a different native language.

Don't be a fool, there is plenty of evidence if one chooses to open their eyes to the obvious.

I said certain Vlach groups are not ethnic Vlach but Latinised Greeks.

Really? Where did you say only "certain", I must have missed it?

Serboi are Iranic. Serbians are not, but we use Serbs for short. Bulgarians are far from Turkic and nor do they do it on purpose. They are just as indeginous as the next in the Balkans and have a fair amount of Thracian background that they can claim.

Irrelevant and unnecessary. Bulgar is for Bulgarian what Serb is for Serbian. Enough with the cheap semantics and charade where you pretend to give a shit about Bulgarian sentiments.

It started out as Oral traditions which then I raised the example of Turks which you clarified of traditions that relate to descendents of Ancient Macedonians which in return I said the same...

I was talking about an oral tradition that refers to the ancient Macedonians as the ancestors of today's Macedonians. Your example was irrelevant (again) and a waste of time.

He is a good example of how ethnicities can be changed on a drop of a dime. There was nothing solid back then to cling on.

Probably a good example of how the Greek identity can be changed at the drop of a patriarchist hat. He was an opportunistic fool that was betrayed by those he went over to. The fact that he was a Macedonian though, who spoke only Macedonian and identified with other Macedonians, is beyond doubt. The only thing 'Greek' about him was his adherence to the Patriarchate.

I asked to what part exactly you were referring to in regards to the "transistion". Its an issue of semantics and to be quite frank, Im not to interested in it.

Oh, I don't know, if your people once identified solely as Romans, and then later as Hellenes, where would you think the word 'transition' fits in? You're a smart cookie, I am sure you will figure it out one day.

There are more examples of course such as the Phiale of Megara as well.

What, another example of Doric? Wow! Macedonian wasn't a written language, so your Greek inscriptions are just.......Greek, not Macedonian.

[makedonche]

[QUOTE=Voltron;88307]

Turkish langauge ? Do you know before the Ataturk "cleansed" the language it was one of the most mixed languages in the region ? Are you kidding me ? What time frame are you referring to ? Another thing as well, people ought to stop commenting on how much Greek they know when they cant even speak, read or understand it. I was able to read everything Agamoi posted with ease and ppl are still clutching at straws here. Truth of the matter is Onur would have an impossible time reading, writing or even conversing in Ottoman. Unless he is famliar with it, and this is something that was told to me by a Turk. Unless he is wrong. You are in no way objective Makedoneche, you just like to hear what you want to hear.

Voltron
Rarely do I substantiate credible facts passed down from father to son for the likes of you, a fabricated Greek from a fabricated nation, but since you decided to go down this path and challenge authenticity I will accomodate your ignorance. My family tree has been traced back many generations so far and the research continues, for your information my family origins are, from recent to past:- Dolno kotori, Gorno Kotori, Voden. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in what the Greeks changed the name of the places to - you can prove your extensive resarch ablities and discover those for yourself, most other members here know what I'm talking about. During the Ottoman Empire the influence of the Turks was significant in many ways, one of those ways was the influence of the Turkish language on everdaylife and to this day we still use Turkish words within our spoken language. This is first hand information passed down from father to son for generations, not a book written by somebody else or a myth produced to give credibility to a claim that has no substance. Now you can choose to accept or reject what I have posted and I really couldn't give a stuff either way because it is the truth - remember the "truth"? something you and your Hellenes should try one day!

You are in no way objective Makedoneche, you just like to hear what you want to hear

Try to substantiate this claim with evidence and facts because your opinion holds no value here, remember - "opinions are like arseholes, everbody's got one", so before you go casting aspersions about others, have a look in the mirror and make sure you don't display the characteristics that you criticise in others!

PS
As for your mate Agamoi, you may want to help him sort out some of his references, they don't appear to corroborate his opinions.

[Pelister]

[QUOTE=Voltron;88307]

Turkish langauge ? Do you know before the Ataturk "cleansed" the language it was one of the most mixed languages in the region ? Are you kidding me ? What time frame are you referring to ? Another thing as well, people ought to stop commenting on how much Greek they know when they cant even speak, read or understand it. I was able to read everything Agamoi posted with ease and ppl are still clutching at straws here. Truth of the matter is Onur would have an impossible time reading, writing or even conversing in Ottoman. Unless he is famliar with it, and this is something that was told to me by a Turk. Unless he is wrong. You are in no way objective Makedoneche, you just like to hear what you want to hear.

A dominant feature of early 19th century 'Greek' was how unstable and inextricably mixed it was. By comparison, the Turkish language was relatively solid, coherent and stable.

[Voltron]

A dominant feature of early 19th century 'Greek' was how unstable and inextricably mixed it was. By comparison, the Turkish language was relatively solid, coherent and stable.

You have got to be kidding. Reread what you just posted, espescially about the Ottoman language.
In case you forgot, Agamoi posted evidence of this mixed up Greek you claimed was existing.

[Voltron]

As for your mate Agamoi, you may want to help him sort out some of his references, they don't appear to corroborate his opinions.

Agamoi can hold his own just fine. Each time he posted an example you brushed it off like you didnt even see it. Then you claim to be objective.
As far as how much Turkish infiltrated your language is something you know not me. I know my language, not Macedonian.

[TrueMacedonian]

I wonder how long ago was it that Voltron and Agamou's great grandparents were forced to learn romaika? Demosthenes would look at these would-be Hellenes* with absolute disdain and would even be more mortified to know that they consider ancient Macedonia as being part of a fictional "Greece".

[Voltron]

I wonder how long ago was it that Voltron and Agamou's great grandparents were forced to learn romaika? Demosthenes would look at these would-be Hellenes* with absolute disdain and would even be more mortified to know that they consider ancient Macedonia as being part of a fictional "Greece".

Forced to learn Romaika ? Nope that didnt happen.

With the same disdain Alexander would look on you TM.
Nationalism is not exclusive to us Greeks. Seems like you took over from us and put it in high gear the last 20 years.

[TrueMacedonian]

Forced to learn Romaika ? Nope that didnt happen.

With the same disdain Alexander would look on you TM.
Nationalism is not exclusive to us Greeks. Seems like you took over from us and put it in high gear the last 20 years.

How do you know they weren't forced to learn Romaika? Were you there?

And Alexander in his sandals, helmet, and tunic would most likely stare at me in disbelief in my jeans, t-shirt, and sneakers. You are correct about that.

[Voltron]

Of course I wasnt there, neither was anyone one of us a couple hundred years ago. The only good thing the Ottomans ever did was to keep records. I can go to Turkey and see how far my family goes. If in fact they were anything else but Greek I have the ability to find out. Besides Romaika is Greek you just dont know it.

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

I can go to Turkey and see how far my family goes. If in fact they were anything else but Greek I have the ability to find out.

Alright go to Turkey and post what you find.

[TrueMacedonian]

Of course I wasnt there, neither was anyone one of us a couple hundred years ago. The only good thing the Ottomans ever did was to keep records. I can go to Turkey and see how far my family goes. If in fact they were anything else but Greek I have the ability to find out. Besides Romaika is Greek you just dont know it.

Ok. And when you find these documents filled with terminologies that suggest they were "Greeks" and not what the Turks used to use as far as every christian under their rule "Rum" then get back to me on your arrival from Istanbul. Sometimes I get a kick out the nonsense you people write on here. Other times I feel like I'm replying to someone living with down-syndrome.

[Voltron]

I have gone several times to Turkey for business, never had a chance to look. Keep in mind that it is in Ottoman writing so you would have to find a person that knows how to read it to tell you.

TM, Can find something in Romaika to post ? I would like to see it.

[Voltron]

Ok. And when you find these documents filled with terminologies that suggest they were "Greeks" and not what the Turks used to use as far as every christian under their rule "Rum" then get back to me on your arrival from Istanbul. Sometimes I get a kick out the nonsense you people write on here. Other times I feel like I'm replying to someone living with down-syndrome.

That doesnt mean Greeks didnt exist. Lets not get overzealous here.