Greece, History, Truth

[Ottoman]

Many Turks also have Greek ancestry because we lived together for 400 years !!!

Of course we got mixed for sure, people who think we dont are naieve assholes.

Still there are many Greeks who marry Turks and Turks who marry Greeks, we should be proud of this.

[Voltron]

Never had a problem with that Ottoman. Its the people that say they are untainted are the ones that exploit what you just said to push an agenda.

[Ottoman]

Voltron I got problems with nationalistic people, I hate nationalistic people, Greek of Turk I dont care, they suck.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Can you prove the modern Greek language is the same as the ancient Hellenic languages?
Can you prove ANY kind of Greek derived language was spoken by the majority of Greece's citizens at the time of creation of your State?

Risto,i hope you don't mind if i try to answer these questions of yours.
The relation between modern and ancient Greek is well described in this narrative of some Englishmen who visited Ali Pasha at Jannina in 1815.The English spoke only ancient Greek and Italian,Ali Pasha talked to them in modern Greek through an interpreter and this is the result:

He motioned us to take a seat on the sofas at no great distance from his couch,the interpreter meanwhile standing in front.He first enquired from the latter,whether we spoke the Romaic,or what other languages.To this enquiry,as it regarded the Romaic,or modern Greek,we were reluctantly compelled to reply in the negative; the interpreter adding on his own suggestion,that we understood the Hellenic;the name by which the ancient Greek language is yet known in the country.The Vizier,continuing to employ the Romaic,while his dragoman communicated with us in Italian,next expressed in general terms his pleasure at seeing us at Ioannina.He enquired how long it was since we had left England?where we had travelled in the interval?when we had arrived in Albania? whether we were pleased with what we had yet seen of this country?how we liked the appearance of Ioannina?whether we had experienced any obstruction in reaching this city?with several other enquiries of similar nature.Though the pronunciation of the modern Greek was still novel and strange to my ear,yet I sufficiently understood it to be aware that Colovo translated our replies to these questions with much distinctness and accuracy."

http://books.google.com/books?id=EJkaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA126

As for what proportion of Greece's population spoke Greek as native tongue in the 1820s,this article of Britannica Encyclopaedia of 1824 is very helpful.You can get an idea reading that even the great majority of the Turks in Greece spoke Greek instead of Turkish,however you'll find in some previous page (587) the statement that,despite the presence of Albanians,Vlachs and Turks,Greeks clearly formed the majority of the population in what was to become few years later the first modern Greek state.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FFcMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA591

[Pelister]

Risto,i hope you don't mind if i try to answer these questions of yours.
The relation between modern and ancient Greek is well described in this narrative of some Englishmen who visited Ali Pasha at Jannina in 1815.The English spoke only ancient Greek and Italian,Ali Pasha talked to them in modern Greek through an interpreter and this is the result:

He motioned us to take a seat on the sofas at no great distance from his couch,the interpreter meanwhile standing in front.He first enquired from the latter,whether we spoke the Romaic,or what other languages.To this enquiry,as it regarded the Romaic,or modern Greek,we were reluctantly compelled to reply in the negative; the interpreter adding on his own suggestion,that we understood the Hellenic;the name by which the ancient Greek language is yet known in the country.The Vizier,continuing to employ the Romaic,while his dragoman communicated with us in Italian,next expressed in general terms his pleasure at seeing us at Ioannina.He enquired how long it was since we had left England?where we had travelled in the interval?when we had arrived in Albania? whether we were pleased with what we had yet seen of this country?how we liked the appearance of Ioannina?whether we had experienced any obstruction in reaching this city?with several other enquiries of similar nature.Though the pronunciation of the modern Greek was still novel and strange to my ear,yet I sufficiently understood it to be aware that Colovo translated our replies to these questions with much distinctness and accuracy."

http://books.google.com/books?id=EJkaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA126

As for what proportion of Greece's population spoke Greek as native tongue in the 1820s,this article of Britannica Encyclopaedia of 1824 is very helpful.You can get an idea reading that even the great majority of the Turks in Greece spoke Greek instead of Turkish,however you'll find in some previous page (587) the statement that,despite the presence of Albanians,Vlachs and Turks,Greeks clearly formed the majority of the population in what was to become few years later the first modern Greek state.
http://books.google.com/books?id=FFcMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA591

It is almost certain that the so called 'Greek' of 1800 would be unintelligible to a New Greek today.

I find it interesting how your only reference is to British phil-hellenes in all of this. The problem is the term 'Greek' and its looseness. Consider for example, the so called 'Greek' of Ali Pasha. His court wrote in Greek letters but the language (different from alphabet) was Turkish and would be better understood by a Turk today that a New Greek. This has been revealed in a rare document, by Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution, Volume 1, Appendix where he suggests that although the document was written in 'Greek' it was noted for its heavy Turkish langauge. Finlay was a phil-hellene who liked to downplay the number of Albanians, or the complete Turkish character of the Greek language.

[George S.]

pelister it's about time the greeks admitted to some home truths.We got nothing to hide.

[Voltron]

This has been revealed in a rare document, by Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution, Volume 1, Appendix where he suggests that although the document was written in 'Greek' it was noted for its heavy Turkish langauge. Finlay was a phil-hellene who liked to downplay the number of Albanians, or the complete Turkish character of the Greek language.

First off Ali Pasha was a Turk-Alvanos or Muslim Albanian. Second, you didnt read the reference or you skimmed through it hastly. Lastly, to imply that anyone that confirms what we say are Phil-Hellenes is a cop out and a psychological mechanism to make you feel better. Trying to negate us will not help your cause. It will only make you look ignorant.

[Agamoi Thytai]

It is almost certain that the so called 'Greek' of 1800 would be unintelligible to a New Greek today.

It's almost certain you stated this because you've heard it by some ignorant compatriot of yours without having any knowledge of Greek,so that you can compare a text in colloquial Greek of 1800 with present day Greek and judge on your own.How would you feel if i claimed that the language that was spoken by your ancestors in 1800 is unintelligible to Macedonians of present day while i obviously have not any clue of Macedonian? Here are some texts of colloquial Greek of early 1800s.

A letter of Ali Pasha to some of his Beys,1813:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aHrVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1151

Αγαπημένε μου Γιακουμπ Μπέη Αλή Μπέη και όποιος από τους μπουλουκμπασήδες μου ευρίσκεται εις το Βραχώρ,μετά τον χαιρετισμό μου σας φανερώνω ότι τούτοι οι δύο μυλόρδοι Εγγλέζοι φίλοι μας έρχονται αυτού δια να περάσουν εις Μεσσολόγγι;να τους δεχθείτε με κάθε ικράμι και περίσκεψι και να τους δώσετε ανθρώπους αρκετούς δια φύλαξι εις το δρόμον έως εις το Μεσσολόγγιν και να μην αφήσετε να δοκιμάσουν καμμιάν δυσκολία εξάπαντος
My beloved Jacob Bey Ali Bey and whichever of my Bolukbashees is to be found at Vrachore,after my salutation I make known to you that these two English gentlemen,my friends,come hither in order to go to Messalongi.Do you receive them with every respect and attention and give them men sufficient to guard them on their way as far as Messalongi,and do not let them meet with any difficulty at all.

A letter of Ali Pasha to the chieftains Markos Botzaris and Lambros Tzavellas,1802:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wcJBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA484

Φίλοι μου Καπετάν Μπότζια και Καπετάν Τζαβέλα ,εγώ ο Αλή Πασάς σας χαιρετώ και σας φιλώ τα μάτια
My friends Captain Botzia and Captain Tzavella,I,Ali Pasha greet you and kiss your eyes
επειδή και εγώ ξέρω πολλά καλά την ανδραγαθία σας και παλικαριά σας.
Because i know very well your gallantry and bravery
Μου φαίνεται να’ χω μεγάλην χρείαν από λόγου σας,
It seems to me that i am in great need of you
λοιπόν μη κάνετε αλλέως παρακαλώ αλλά ευθύς όπου λάβετε την γραφήν μου,
therefore i urge you not to make something different but as soon as you receive my letter
να μαζώξετε όλα σας τα παλικάρια και να έλθετε να με εύρετε,δια να πάω να πολεμήσω τους εχθρούς μου.
To gather all your lads and come to find me,so that i go to fight my enemies.
Τούτη είναι η ώρα κι ο καιρός όπου έχω χρείαν από λόγου σας,
This is the moment and the time I have your need
και μένω να δω την φιλίαν σας και αγάπην όπου έχετε δια λόγου μου.
And I expect to see the friendship and love you have for me
Ο λουφές σας θέλει είναι διπλός απ’ όσον δίδω στους Αλβανίτας,
Your wages will be double of what I give to the Albanians
γιατί και η παλικαριά σας ξέρω πως είναι πολλά μεγαλύτερη από την δική τους.
Because I know that your courage is greater than theirs
Λοιπόν εγώ δεν πάω να πολεμήσω πριν να έλθετε εσείς,
Well,I don’t go to fight before you join me
και σας καρτερώ γρήγορα να έλθετε.
And i’m waiting you to come soon
Ταύτα και σας χαιρετώ.
That’s all for now and i salute you

A letter of chieftain Lambros Tzavellas to Ali Pasha,1820(actually that letter was written some years earlier as i've seen in other similar books,which had only its English translation though:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xXELAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA129

Αλή Πασά,χαίρομαι οπού εγέλασα ένα δόλιον.
Ali Pasha, I am glad that I deceived a deceiver.
Είμαι εδώ να διαφεντεύω την πατρίδα μου εναντίον εις ένα κλέφτην.
I am here to defend my country against a thief.
Ο υιος μου θέλει αποθάνει,εγώ όμως απέλπιδος θέλει τον εκδικήσω πριν να αποθάνω.
My son is doomed to death,but i will desperately evenge him before i die
Κάποιοι Τούρκοι,καθώς εσένα,θέλουν ειπείν ότι είμαι άσπλαχνος πατέρας,
Some Turks,like yourself,will say that i am a merciless father
με το να θυσιάσω τον υιόν μου δια τον εδικόν μου λυτρωμόν.
To sacrifice my child for my own redemption
Αποκρίνομαι ότι αν εσύ πάρεις το βουνόν,θέλεις σκοτώσει τον υιον μου
I answer that if you had taken the mountain you would have killed my son
με το επίλοιπον της φαμελίας μου και τους συμπατριώτας μου.
With the rest of my family and my compatriots
Τότε δεν θα ημπορήσω να εκδικήσω τον θάνατον του.
Then i will be unable to revenge his death
Αμα αν νικήσουμε,θέλει έχω άλλα παιδιά
But if we are victorious,i will have other children
Η γυναίκα μου είναι νέα.
My wife is young
Εάν ο υιός μου, νέος καθώς είναι
If my son,being young
δεν μένει ευχαριστημένος να θυσιασθεί δια την πατρίδα του,
is not satisfied to sacrifice himself for his native fatherland
αυτός δεν είναι άξιος να ζήσει,και να γνωρίζεται ως υιός μου,
he is neither worthy to live and to be acknowledged as my son
μήτε πρέπει να ονομάζεται άξιος υιός της Ελλάδος πατρίδος μας,
nor should be called worthy son of our fatherland Greece
εάν με γενναιότητα δεν υποφέρει τον θάνατον.
If he doesn’t suffer his death bravely
Προχώρησε λοιπόν,άπιστε,είμαι ανυπόμονος να εκδικηθώ
Go ahead then,infidel,i am looking forward to revenge
Εγώ ο ωμωσμένος εχθρός σου,
I,your sworn enemy
Καπετάν Λάμπρος Τζαβέλας
Captain Lambros Tzavellas

I find it interesting how your only reference is to British phil-hellenes in all of this. The problem is the term 'Greek' and its looseness. Consider for example, the so called 'Greek' of Ali Pasha. His court wrote in Greek letters but the language (different from alphabet) was Turkish and would be better understood by a Turk today that a New Greek. This has been revealed in a rare document, by Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution, Volume 1, Appendix where he suggests that although the document was written in 'Greek' it was noted for its heavy Turkish langauge. Finlay was a phil-hellene who liked to downplay the number of Albanians, or the complete Turkish character of the Greek language.

It's difficult to find other sources besides Brittish from that time,but what does it matter?I see all the texts i've posted are perfectly intelligible to any Greek today,some slight differences in modern spelling (or due to spelling errors) are insignificant.There are only 2 Turkish loanwords (besides personal names or Ottoman officials,i.e. Pasha,Bey e.t.c.).If you really think a Turk would understand any other word,let's ask Onur or Ottoman.I've transliterated the above three texts in Latin:

Aghapimene mou Jacub Bey Ali Bey, ke opios apo tous bouloukbasides mou evriskete is to Vrachor,meta ton kheretismo mou sas fanerono oti tuti i dhyo mylordhi Egglezi fili mas erkhonde aftou dhia na perasoun is to Messollongi;na tous dhekhtite me kathe ikrami ke periskepsi ke na tous dosete anthropous arketous dhia fylaxi is to dhromon eos is to Messollongin ke na min afisete na dokimasoun kammian dhyskolian exapantos.

Fili mou Kapetan Botzia kai Kapetan Tzavella,egho o Ali Pasas sas chereto ke sas filo ta matia,epidhi ke egho xero polla kala tin andhraghathia sas ke palikaria sas,mou fenete na’ ho megalin khrian apo loghou sas.Lipon mi kanete allios parakalo,alla efthys opou lavete tin ghrafin mou,na mazoxete ola sas ta palikaria ken a elthete na me evrete,dhia na pao na polemiso tous ekhthrous mou.Touti ine I ora ki o keros opou ekho khrian apo loghou sas,ke meno na dho tin filian sas ke agapin opou ehete dia loghou mou.O loufes sas thelei einai dhiplos ap’ oson dido stous Alvanitas,ghiati ke I palikaria sas xero pos ine polla megalyteri apo tin diki tous.Lipon egho dhen pao na polemiso prin na elthete esis ke sas kartero grigora ne elthete.
Tafta ke sas khereto.

Ali Pasha,kherome opou eghelasa ena dholion.Ime edho na dhiafentevo tin patridha mou enandion is ena kleftin.O yios mou theli apothani,egho omos apelpidhos thelei ton ekdhikiso prin apothano.Kapkhii Tourki,kathos esena,theloun ipin oti ime asplachnos pateras,me to na thysiaso ton yion mou dhia ton edhikon mou lytromon.Apokrinome oti an esi paris to vounon,thelis skotosi ton yion mou me to ypolipon tis famelias ke tous sympatriotas mou.Tote dhen tha boreso na ekdhikiso ton thanaton tou.Ama an nikisoume,theli echo alla pedhia.I ghyneka mou ine nea.Ean o yios mou,neos kathos ine,dhen meni efkharistimenos na thysiasthi dhia tin patridha tou,aftos dhen ine axios na zisi ke na ghnorizete os yios mou,mite prepi na onomazete axios yios tis Ellados patridos mas,ean me gheneotita dhen ypoferi ton thanaton.Prohorise lipon apiste,ime anypomonos na ekdhikitho
Egho,o omosmenos ekhthros sou,Kapetan Lambros Tzavelas

Greek indeed received Turkish loanwords,like any other Balkan language,but not to the extend you believe.Perhaps the greatest Turkish impact on Greek language was in swearing expressions,even though it was most times a translation from Turkish to Greek.Look at this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aHrVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA585

"The vulgar phrases which are too indecent to be translated are some of them borrowed from or are similar to the Turkish.The γαμώ τη μάνα σου,the most common is the anassinhy sictim of the Mahometans."

[makedonche]

Agamoi

"The vulgar phrases which are too indecent to be translated are some of them borrowed from or are similar to the Turkish.The γαμώ τη μάνα σου,the most common is the anassinhy sictim of the Mahometans."

If this is the only thing you could find to confirm Turkish words that influenced the Greek language, then that is a reflection of your capabilities/narrow mindedness and subjectivity!

[Onur]

Agamoi

If this is the only thing you could find to confirm Turkish words that influenced the Greek language, then that is a reflection of your capabilities/narrow mindedness and subjectivity!

That sentence was in the book of the British traveler from 1810 AD. There are literally 100s of so-called memoirs like this from that era and most of them has been written in London or Paris, without even stepping in Ottoman Empire. These are just false propaganda. Thats already how a country called Greece has been born on top of lies and bullshit like that.

You are right makedonche. Selecting this sentence as an example, proves the narrow mindset of Agamoi Thytai just same as the British traveler of 19th century. Worst side of it, he believes this crap and thinks that this is supposedly the truth.

Agamoi, if you Greeks was only capable to learn to say "anassinhy sictim" from Turks over the centuries, this just shows your people`s pitiful incapability or should i say unique capability?

[George S.]

Agreed there would be heaps of words in turkish that have influenced greece getting them to admit it is a huge obstacle again due to their narrow mindedness & stupidity.

[makedonche]

That sentence was in the book of the British traveler from 1810 AD. There are literally 100s of so-called memoirs like this from that era and most of them has been written in London or Paris, without even stepping in Ottoman Empire. These are just false propaganda. Thats already how a country called Greece has been born on top of lies and bullshit like that.

You are right makedonche. Selecting this sentence as an example, proves the narrow mindset of Agamoi Thytai just same as the British traveler of 19th century. Worst side of it, he believes this crap and thinks that this is supposedly the truth.

Agamoi, if you Greeks was only capable to learn to say "anassinhy sictim" from Turks over the centuries, this just shows your people`s pitiful incapability or should i say unique capability?

Onur
I consider myself a tolerant and understanding person with balanced views, objectivity and the ability to accept other peoples opinions and views. When I read what Agamoi posts all I see are single-minded narrow views with no scope for any alternate opinions or views. For me this is where I draw the line with these fools. I have been reading all the posts and threads by yourself, SoM and others and found them intriguing and very enlightening, most of all I can understand how different languages had varying impacts on other nations at different times in history and even to the modern day. Now if an average person like me can see the significant impact of the Turkish language on most of the Balkan areas, how is it this so called educated Agamoi can't seem to find any reference other than "Vulgarities" not worth mentioning? I fear our task of educating, enlightening and exchanging information with these fools will be far greater than any of us imagined - "you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink".
Or in the case of most Greeks not a horse but a "Mule".

[Soldier of Macedon]

How many ethnic groups reside in ROM today. Are people any less Macedonian because of it ? No they are not.

They are not ethno-linguistically Macedonian, they are geographically Macedonian. There is a clear difference, start applying it.

And I suppose you know what they speak at home ?

Yes I do. Perhaps in the USA where you claim to originate from the scene is different, but in Australia most grkomani cannot speak Greek, instead they speak Macedonian, quite well in fact. It is largely the affinity they have with the Greek church that keeps them in a vortex of delusion about their supposed 'Hellenic' identity.

Where did I say a Vlach "ethnicity " does not exist in its own right?

You seem to indicate as much everytime you claim them for the Hellenic nation in Greece.

........you take it a step further and deny a Bulgarian heritage altogether by emphasizing the term Bulgars in almost each post.

Even in their own language the Bulgarians call themselves 'Bulgari' and not 'Bulgariani', this so-called Bulgar - Bulgarian identity "distinction" stems from today's Bulgarians trying to distance themselves from the Turkic origins of their namesake. To me, it is the same, if I need to make a distinction I will call the progenitors Turkic Bulgars. I don't consider the Serbs and the Serbians as different people either. Do you?

Never said they were all Grkomani. Nobody knows what their native language was if in fact it was even a language. There simply isnt enough proof.

Their native language was Macedonian, and their ethnicity and culture are Macedonian. There is no doubt. That is what they are, and what their grandparents were - and despite the brainwashing carried out by your government, they still speak Macedonian in the diaspora countries they have moved to.

We claim descent from Ancient Greece, is that in itself enough for you ?

That has nothing to do with your earlier assertion regarding Turkish 'oral traditions' about the Macedonians. You're all over the place.

What about Kottas, is his view any lesser than how Karev or Pulevski viewed themselves ?

Kote was a Macedonian who collaborated with the Patriarchists after previously being associated with VMRO, and paid the ultimate price for his betrayal - ironically, not from Macedonians but from that animal Karavangeli who basically gave him up to the authorities as a criminal.

His position is in fact sometimes ambigous. He does not completly confirm or deny the fact " IMO " that they were in fact a NorthWest Greek Tribe.

Your 'O' is one of an uninformed observer.

Pls elaborate or point me to the right direction.

This is exactly what I was talking about with regard to the cyclic games and time-wasting, like you don't know that Greek-speaking people identified as Romans for the better part of 2,000 years. It has nothing to do with conforming to my POV or having you agree with everything I say, which is another baseless and time-wasting assertion that is becoming quite the characteristic in you.

I am not using the Pella tablet as "proof", I am stating that the language hasnt changed that much. You have to know Greek to have an objective opinion of the language.

The Pella tablet is not proof of the ancient Macedonian language and does not exhibit its characteristics such as 'Bilon' instead of 'Philon'. It is an inscription written in Doric, simple.

[Pelister]

Exactly Pelister.

The official Athens line is nothing but Greek propaganda. There is enough evidence today that proves Macedonia never was Greek.

Their agenda is politically motivated. Today's politics should not get in the way of historical facts.

Trouble is we don't have a government prepared to stand up for our historical rights. They fear that any mention of Macedonian historical rights under Greek occupation will be grabbed by the New Greeks with both hands as an expression of territorial pretensions - this kind of aggression and warmongering is how the New Greeks have practically whipped the Macedonians into complete silence on the key issues that matter. It hasn't occured to the Macedonian government that bringing up the historical truth is an effective way of bringing about change within Greek society, and a postive step forward toward some kind of reconcilation. It is important that the Macedonians make it clear they are not interested in territory, only in the historical truth. The 'negotiations' must end immediately, because they have no basis in the truth. They are predicated on a historical lie. In any case why would Gruevski expose our identity to political extinction, while at the same time, giving silent support and political legitimation to the Greek position within the framework of the negotiations, and at the same time fail completely to notify all Macedonians that we have not in fact been legally blocked from the United Nations? I think that if the Macedonian people knew that they were not officially and legally blocked at the UN and that they could have their name admitted, according to UN law probably within a matter of months, Gruevski would be dead in no time at all.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Onur
I consider myself a tolerant and understanding person with balanced views, objectivity and the ability to accept other peoples opinions and views. When I read what Agamoi posts all I see are single-minded narrow views with no scope for any alternate opinions or views. For me this is where I draw the line with these fools. I have been reading all the posts and threads by yourself, SoM and others and found them intriguing and very enlightening, most of all I can understand how different languages had varying impacts on other nations at different times in history and even to the modern day. Now if an average person like me can see the significant impact of the Turkish language on most of the Balkan areas, how is it this so called educated Agamoi can't seem to find any reference other than "Vulgarities" not worth mentioning? I fear our task of educating, enlightening and exchanging information with these fools will be far greater than any of us imagined - "you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink".

Turkish langauge ? Do you know before the Ataturk "cleansed" the language it was one of the most mixed languages in the region ? Are you kidding me ? What time frame are you referring to ? Another thing as well, people ought to stop commenting on how much Greek they know when they cant even speak, read or understand it. I was able to read everything Agamoi posted with ease and ppl are still clutching at straws here. Truth of the matter is Onur would have an impossible time reading, writing or even conversing in Ottoman. Unless he is famliar with it, and this is something that was told to me by a Turk. Unless he is wrong. You are in no way objective Makedoneche, you just like to hear what you want to hear.