Greece, History, Truth

[Voltron]

The Greeks and their friends were too apt to leap back two thousand years and ignore all history between the fight of Chaeronea(1) and the fight of Dragatshan(2).

(1) The decisive victory of Philip of Macedon over the Athenians and their allies, B.C. 338.

(2) The first great decisive victory of the Greeks over the Turks in the Revolution of A.d. 1821.

The life and letters of Edward A. Freeman, D.C.L., LL. D. By William Richard Wood Stephens pages 190-192.


Would you like to start here? Or would you rather prefer to take this particular debate here - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1316

We can stay here. Dont need to jump to other threads back and forth.

It means very little to me what others thought of Ancient Macedonians. It means a great deal to me what Ancient Macedonians thought of themselves. That being said, I dont hold any value what 18th or 19th century Greeks have said, It was their opinion but thats as far as it goes, an opinion. Similar in the same way how you dont hold value on what certain 18th or 19th century Macedonians have said about their own ethnic traditions or consciousness.

Borza said, " There is no reason to deny the Macedonians' own traditions about their early kings and the migration of the Macedones ".

Can you post me references where Ancient Macedonians themselves considered themselves different from the Hellenic ethnos? Can we use this as a starting point instead of debating what he said she said ?

[Voltron]

Voltron i consider myself as macedonian do you have a problem with that,i can trace my family going back at least 300 years in the ohrid region.If anyone tellls me i'm not macedonian or i don't have a right to call myself macedonian will get my knuckle sandwich.

George, your alright. I have read your posts and Im sure your a nice fellow, seriously. No, I have absolutly no problem with you being a
Macedonian. Im not a hater.

[Ottoman]

Ancient Macedonians were considered as barbarians (non-Greeks) by the Greeks, why?

[Voltron]

Politics Ottoman... Politics. Some things do remain the same even today. Think of the Safavids and Ottomans. They were both Turkish based right ? Or am I wrong ?

[Ottoman]

No Safavids were Iranian, I think you mean Timurids, the Ottoman sultan Bayezid I was captured by the Timurids who were also Turks.

[Voltron]

No Safavids were Iranian, I think you mean Timurids, the Ottoman sultan Bayezid I was captured by the Timurids who were also Turks.

I thought they were Turks with a heavy Persian influence.

[Ottoman]

The Safavids were mixed, they also had Greek origin and many other backgrounds, but in the end they are considered as Iranian, although one of their famous rulers Ismail I was Turkic.

[Onur]

I thought they were Turks with a heavy Persian influence.

Thats correct.

Safavids was shiite muslims and most of them was Turks but they were heavily affected by Iranian culture due to their sect and environment. Safavids are the ancestors of today`s Azeri Turks in northern Iran.

Also even tough Safavids and Ottomans were rivals, Ottomans never said that Safavids was not Turks. They were calling each other as heretics because of different sects but they clearly knew that both of them was Turks. So this is different than Greeks calling Macedonians as barbarian, meant non-Greek in that era.

[TrueMacedonian]

We can stay here. Dont need to jump to other threads back and forth.

It means very little to me what others thought of Ancient Macedonians. It means a great deal to me what Ancient Macedonians thought of themselves. That being said, I dont hold any value what 18th or 19th century Greeks have said, It was their opinion but thats as far as it goes, an opinion. Similar in the same way how you dont hold value on what certain 18th or 19th century Macedonians have said about their own ethnic traditions or consciousness.

Borza said, " There is no reason to deny the Macedonians' own traditions about their early kings and the migration of the Macedones ".

Can you post me references where Ancient Macedonians themselves considered themselves different from the Hellenic ethnos? Can we use this as a starting point instead of debating what he said she said ?

There's no need to begin an ancient historical debate. What we should look into is when claiming ancient Macedonian history and claiming Macedonia was acceptable with the 19th century new grks. The Megali Idea speech the Vlach Kolettis gave was the stepping stone towards expanding the newborn baby kingdom grecija's borders into Macedonia. So what you don't care for is the 18th and 19th century "greeks" (however many were grk to begin with) and there opinions. But it matters a great deal because this destroys the "Hellenism" aspect Droysen invented for your people.

[Voltron]

The Safavids were mixed, they also had Greek origin and many other backgrounds, but in the end they are considered as Iranian, although one of their famous rulers Ismail I was Turkic.

Thanks Ottoman for the feedback. Yes, you are also right. I also read they had many intermarriages between different ethnic groups.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Safavid

1. Genealogy - The Ancestors of The Safavids
See also: Safvat as-safa, Silsilat-al-nasab-i Safaviya, and Safavid dynasty family tree

Safavids were a mixed ancestry of ethnic Azerbaijani and Kurdish origin, with intermarriages with Pontic Greek [25] and, in later times, Georgian [26] dignitaries. The Safavid Kings themselves claimed to be Seyyeds, [27] family descendants of the prophet Muhammad, although many scholars have cast doubt on this claim. [28] There seems now to be a consensus among scholars that the Safavid family hailed from Persian Kurdistan, [19] and later moved to Azerbaijan, finally settling in the 5th/11th century at Ardabil.

According to some historians, [29] [30] including Richard Frye, the Safavids were of Azeri (Turkish) origin: [21]

“ A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries not only Turkified Azerbaijan but also Anatolia. Azeri Turks were the founders of Safavid dynasty. ”
While other historians, such as Vladimir Minorsky [31] and Roger Savory refutes this idea: [32]

“ From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry as it is sometimes claimed. It is probable that the family originated in Persian Kurdistan, and later moved to Azerbaijan, where they adopted the Azari form of Turkish spoken there, and eventually settled in the small town of Ardabil sometimes during the eleventh century. ”

[Voltron]

Thats correct.

Safavids was shiite muslims and most of them was Turks but they were heavily affected by Iranian culture due to their sect and environment. Safavids are the ancestors of today`s Azeri Turks in northern Iran.

Also even tough Safavids and Ottomans were rivals, Ottomans never said that Safavids was not Turks. They were calling each other as heretics because of different sects but they clearly knew that both of them was Turks. So this is different than Greeks calling Macedonians as barbarian, meant non-Greek in that era.

What better insult to say than to call someone a " Barbarian " Onur. When you say Greeks called Ancient Macedonians barbarians Can you tell me who exactly ?

[Voltron]

There's no need to begin an ancient historical debate. What we should look into is when claiming ancient Macedonian history and claiming Macedonia was acceptable with the 19th century new grks. The Megali Idea speech the Vlach Kolettis gave was the stepping stone towards expanding the newborn baby kingdom grecija's borders into Macedonia. So what you don't care for is the 18th and 19th century "greeks" (however many were grk to begin with) and there opinions. But it matters a great deal because this destroys the "Hellenism" aspect Droysen invented for your people.

Isnt that the essense of the problem though TM ? An ancient historical debate ? Now as far Droysen is concerned he has his views, are you insinuitating that he invented Greeks ? Did I understand this correctly ? What destroys Hellenism TM ? How ? Are you more genetically Macedonian than we are genetically Greeks and thus the rightful heirs to Macedonia ? Can you prove this ?

[TrueMacedonian]

Isnt that the essense of the problem though TM ? An ancient historical debate ? Now as far Droysen is concerned he has his views, are you insinuitating that he invented Greeks ? Did I understand this correctly ? What destroys Hellenism TM ? How ? Are you more genetically Macedonian than we are genetically Greeks and thus the rightful heirs to Macedonia ? Can you prove this ?

No. It is not. The antiquity debate has nothing to do with the constant denial of a Macedonian people and language. It is used by your gov't and intellectuals to cast an illusion in front of the real reason why there is a so-called "name issue". And that's the Macedonian minority.

[George S.]

thanks for seing it my way voltron .It's two way you respect me & i'll respect you it's as simple as aBC.Youre welcome on this forum but don't offend us try & see our way & we will see it your way.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonians and Albanians have a different approach. They are the ones that use " purity " or " genetics " in their positions.

The Macedonians claim only ethnic Macedonians as ethnic Macedonians, whereas the Greeks claim ethnic Greeks, ethnic Macedonians, ethnic Vlachs, ethnic Albanians, etc as ethnic Greeks - and then produce 98% or 97% figures for 'Greeks' in Greece. Why doesn't Greece allow a question relating to ethno-linguistic identity on their census'?

It means very little to me what others thought of Ancient Macedonians. It means a great deal to me what Ancient Macedonians thought of themselves.

That's very convenient. There is little recorded about what the ancient Macedonians said about themselves, we have to rely on a logical interpretation of the sources, collectively.

That being said, I dont hold any value what 18th or 19th century Greeks have said, It was their opinion but thats as far as it goes, an opinion. Similar in the same way how you dont hold value on what certain 18th or 19th century Macedonians have said about their own ethnic traditions or consciousness.

It's not the same thing. Even though certain Macedonians of the 19th century promoted the use of socio-political terms like 'Bulgarian', they did not identify their origins with the Turkic Bulgars who established Bulgaria in Moesia. Intead, in their writings you will find reference to figures such as Alexander and the ancient Macedonians (Pulevski, Shapkarev, Misirkov, Karev), Justinian the Great (Miladinov, Hadji-Konstantinov), Basil I - the Macedonian (Hadji Konstantinov), etc. On the other hand, Greek intellectuals of the 19th century, still in transition from the Roman identity to a Hellenic one, generally viewed the ancient Macedonians in the same way that the ancient Hellenes did - a non-Greek people that lived north of the Peneus river.

Borza said, " There is no reason to deny the Macedonians' own traditions about their early kings and the migration of the Macedones ".

Isn't it interesting how the previous Greek that was parroting that line, a member called Agamoi Thytai, has conveniently disappeared a couple of days before you appeared? Perhaps you are all chick-fed from the same hand? Here is the full text of that quote from Borza, as explained to your cohort perviously: There is no reason to deny the Macedonians’ own tradition about their early kings and the migration of the Makedones. We have already suggested that a branch of those highlanders, the Argeadae, may have migrated out of the Haliacmon basin into the piedmont of northern Pieria.

THe Haliacmon basin and Pieria are both in Macedonia, that is the migration to which Borza is making reference to in that quote. You need to brush up on your reading.

Can you post me references where Ancient Macedonians themselves considered themselves different from the Hellenic ethnos? Can we use this as a starting point instead of debating what he said she said ?

No, that is not an appropriate starting point, for a number of reasons. Furthermore, there are other threads where this topic can be discussed, this thread was created for a completely separate topic.