Greece, History, Truth

[Bill77]

AT, what word was used in the original, for "beloved"?

Meaning of Beloved

be·loved (bi luv′id, -luvd′)
adjective
dearly loved

The term is often used by a parent towards his/her children. You would also here it in wedding ceremonies by celebrants addressing the Gathered.


Only someone with homosexual tendencies like Agamoi Thytai would see it in a sexual perverted way. lol

[Agamoi Thytai]

Only someone with homosexual tendencies like Agamoi Thytai would see it in a sexual perverted way. lol

Sorry to disappoint you but i don't meet the sinful expectations of your lecherous imagination,Billy boy.Don't let it get you down,you are still so young (judging by your posts at least,you probably seem to be no older than 14-16) and i wish you good luck in the search of your destiny!

Meaning of Beloved

be·loved (bi luv′id, -luvd′)
adjective
dearly loved

The term is often used by a parent towards his/her children. You would also here it in wedding ceremonies by celebrants addressing the Gathered.Only someone with homosexual tendencies like Agamoi Thytai would see it in a sexual perverted way. lol

Now besides insulting me you also seem to insult human intelligence to the greatest degree!Do you really believe this kind of "love" refers to paternal love????Then tell me,was this below maybe another specimen of "paternal love" :

"When he saw that the king was becoming enamoured of another Pausanias (a man of the same name as himself), he addressed him with abusive language, accusing him of being a hermaphrodite and prompt to accept the amorous advances of any who wished."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D16%3Achapter%3D93%3Asection%3D4

Or maybe this one was a case of "celebrants" engaging in some extreme,so to say "wedding ceremonies":
"The incident was widely discussed and Attalus, who was a member of the court circle and influential with the king, invited the first Pausanias to dinner and when he had plied him till drunk with unmixed wine, handed his unconscious body over to the muleteers to abuse in drunken licentiousness".

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D16%3Achapter%3D93%3Asection%3D7

Another Macedonian king,Demetrius the Besieger was also famous for his "paternal love" towards young boys:

"I may not pass over the modesty and virtue of Democles. He was still a young boy, and it did not escape the notice of Demetrius that he had a surname which indicated his comeliness; for he was called Democles the Beautiful. But he yielded to none of the many who sought to win him by prayers or gifts or threats, and finally, shunning the palaestras and the gymnasium, used to go for his bath to a private bathing-room. Here Demetrius, who had watched his opportunity, came upon him when he was alone".

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0040%3Achapter%3D24%3Asection%3D2

"And the boy, when he saw that he was quite alone and in dire straits, took off the lid of the cauldron and jumped into the boiling water, thus destroying himself, and suffering a fate that was unworthy of him, but showing a spirit that was worthy of his country and of his beauty. Not so Cleaenetus the son of Cleomedon, who, in order to obtain a letter from Demetrius to the people and therewith to secure the remission of a fine of fifty talents which had been imposed upon his father, not only disgraced himself, but also got the city into trouble."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0040%3Achapter%3D24%3Asection%3D3

What kind of "paternal love" was that,causing him even to commit suicide!Face the reality,Bill!Those whom you consider as your glorious ancestors were pederasts and the only way to deliver yourself from that disgrace is to renounce every relation with them,ahahahaha!But hey,you are so stubborn and blind that even if you could travel back in time and saw with your own eyes Philip fu&&ing Pausanias,you would again claim it's just an extra-ordinary expression of "paternal love",lolololol!!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Diodorus Siculus,16.93.3 till 16.94.4:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...%3Asection%3D3

Where does it specifically state that Phillip II was a homosexual or took part in such acts?

[Ottoman]

Why are you so surprised?As if it was an unknown practice in your society!

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kw_BVSVmNsUC&pg=PA80&dq=homosexuality+of+famous+personalities+including+the+founder+of+the+Turkish+republic&hl=el&ei=Ic4sTYSVCoeg4Qa76-C9Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=homosexuality%20of%20famous%20personalities%20including%20the%20founder%20of%20the%20Turkish%20republic&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=XZL5EeGpW0MC&pg=PA31

The Muslim Conqueror Mehmed II Gave Christianity the Renaissance

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-muslim-conqueror-mehmed-ii-gave-christianity-the-renaissance-a292766

Read this brother and try to understand that Mehmed II was an important man in world history despite all the ugly claims.

[Epirot]

I won't to interrupt the flow of debate but I'd like to add here some passages from a Canadian historian of Greek descent, Andre Gerolymatos from his book 'The Balkan Wars':

The Albanians even set fashion for Balkan warriors with their kilts...

Today this Albanian fashion….is instantly recognizable as the Greek national costume and it’s proudly worn by the men guarding Greek Parliament. Pg 113

Ali Pasha was the sum of contradictions: cruel and impetuous one moment and a benefactor to the Christians the next. "The boasted ability of Ali was displayed in subduing the Albanians, cheating the Ottoman government and ruling the Greeks".

Ali Pasha proceeded randomly in any direction provided by circumstance and chance for authority. His first goal was to reduce the CHRISTIAN ALBANIANS OF SULI a group that managed to achieve some measures of independence through a combination of geographic inaccessibility and Orthodox opposition to the Catholic West. The SULIOTS were a branch of THE SOUTHERN ALBANIAN TOSKS and until the 17th c, their territory belonged to an Ottoman timariot (a landholding lord) based in Ioannina.

When the Venetians gained possession of the Peloponnese through the Treaty of Carlowitz in 1699, however anarchy took over in the rest of the Balkans. ORTHODOX ALBANIANS formed armed bands to defend themselves against brigands whose numbers and activities thrived as a result. Instead of forcing THE CHRISTIAN ALBANIANS to give up their arms, the pashas of Albania and Northern Greece found common cause in combating the Catholic menace that had become established in southern Greece.

By the first quarter of the 18th c, the SULIOTS had been awarded control of a small Christian district in SOUTHERN ALBANIA.

For almost a century, the SULIOTS dominated the surrounding villages and offered protection to CHRISTIAN ALBANIANS who fell victim to the rapacious demands of the Ottoman authorities. The ethos of SULIOT was to fight and war was the only honourable occupation. Suliot women were also trained to use muskets, and on occasion they took part in fighting. Usually, they supported their men by carrying provisions and supplying them with ammunition during the course of the battle.
The lifestyle, of course, left very few means of support, so if protection dues were not forthcoming, the Suliots exacted tribute by force form the nearby Christian villages. By the time Ali Pasha took over Ioannina, there were numerous complains coming from the Christian and Muslims over the frequency of plundering activities and the general lawlessness of the Suliots…The fact that the Suliots were Christians made it possible for Ali to disguise his motives as a defence of the Sultan.

ALI PASHA, IOANNINA and the GREEK REVOLUTION

By the early 19th c, Ali's machinations had made him the unlikely catalyst for the Greek revolution. His every calculated move, to outmaneuver the Sultan, enhanced the position of the Greek revolutionaries in general and those in Ioannina pashalik in particular. He used Greeks in civil administration and muslim Albanians in the military, and forged a series of complex series of alliances with the French and the British - all in an attempt to consolidtae power in his hands.

During this period, these regions were infested with dozens of outlaw bands that had brought trade almsot to a stand still. As a former bandit, Ali was familiar with the tactics and major hideouts of the brigands. For several years, he waged ruthless campaigns against his former associates and opponents...

Acc. to one writer, T.S.Hughes who in 1819 travelled through the territory administered by Ali Pasha..."There exists at present a security in these dominions...A police is organized, robbers are extirpated, roads and canals are made inpaired, rivers are rendered navigable, so that the merchant can now tranverse the Albanian districts with safety, and traveller with convenience. Agriculture improves, commerce increases; and the whole nation advances, perhaps unconsciously towards higher destinies and greater happiness."

At the end of the 18th c, Ioannina was one of the most urban centres of Greece and Albania. The town had a population of 30.000 and had evolved into a major hub of commerce and banking in the Balkans. Under Ali’s governance, Ioannina was also transformed into the literary capital of Greece and it soon became a place of refuge for Greeks and other Christians fleeing Ottoman authority. Ali Pasha became almost a patron of the arts and a protector of those persecuted by the Ottomans and Orthodox administrations. He encouraged and supported the founding of schools, colleges, and libraries and provided generous endowments to maintain those institutions. GREEK quickly assumed prominence as the literary language of SOUTHERN ALBANIA and was studied by Christians and Muslims alike. Yet, Ali Pasha had no real interest in either Greek or Albanian nationalism; he was simply using everything in his disposal to degrade the Ottoman authority. If his actions served the interests of the Greek revolutionaries, it was completely unintentional. His only interest was in maintaining and expanding the sphere of the Ioannina pashalik, and to do that, Ali had to eliminate all potential challengers to his rule.

In practical terms, this meant that in addition to destroying the neighbouring Turkish governors and local Turkish notables, he also had to reduce the military capability of the armatoli, squash the quasi-independent ALBANIAN CHRISTIAN villages, and destroy any significant klephts bands that could be used against him.

The demise of the Suliots completed the disarmament of all the Christian villages in the pashalik. Ali Pasha was now virtually the only military power in the region. Over the next 17 years, he continued to consolidate his power, but when he began to exterminate Muslim communities, it became apparent to Sultan that the Old Lion had intentions other than fidelity to the Ottoman empire...

Ali’s ambition however was not to be constrained by religion, ethnic or cultural scruples. After Sultan declared him a traitor, the wily Pasha resolved to co-opt the Albanians and Greeks into his schemes. He considered himself the natural chief of the Albanian Tosks and he assumed that he could easily become the political leader of the Greeks. Ali was aware of rumours about Greek plans for Revolution, and he was familiar with their desire for their own constitution and general assembly. In fact, he expected to create a strong national feeling in his favour by promising the Greeks a constitution and according to one account he even offered to convert to Orthodoxy to make himself more acceptable as the future head of the Greek State.

Although he was not quite sure of what was meant by constitution or a national assembly, he convened a meeting of Albanian chieftains, Greek notables and Orthodox clergyman. He addressed the assembly in Greek... Ali proceeded to describe his plans for rebellion, and in amore uncharacteristic of the Ottoman ruler, he condescended to ask for their help. He claimed to be opposing the Sultan because he was being persecuted by the viziers of the Sublime Port for his vigilant support of Albanian interests and for the protection he offered the Christians from the ruinous demands of the sultan’s agents. Albanians agreed with everything what Ali said, the Greek secretaries meanwhile assured Ali that it would be easy to incite the Greeks into a rebellion while the rest of Greek delegates remained silent. Few of them believed the pasha’s sudden concern for the welfare of the Orthodox. Thus, he was unable to gain a consensus (pages 135-142)

[TrueMacedonian]

Mr. Finlay replied on June 37 to Freeman's first letter, and wrote twice to him again at considerable length in the course of the summer and autumn. For the information which Freeman was seeking he referred him to some of his own pamphlets and articles in Black-woods Magazine, published during the last twenty years, some of which had been translated in the Revue Britannique, and had therefore excited some interest in Greece, and elsewhere on the Continent. He expressed entire agreement with the general principles laid down in Freeman's letter, but he took a very gloomy view of the present condition and immediate prospects of Greece. He admitted that independence was a great gain, and worth a hundred years of revolution, but the condition of the country was still lamentable. 'We have had,' he says, ' a European monarchy for more than twenty-two years, and a representative government for twelve, yet not a single elementary measure has been proposed to secure the increase and improvement of the agricultural population.' He was doing his best to persuade the people to improve their own condition, for he had lost all hope of help from protecting powers, kings, diplomatists, and representative chambers. Meanwhile, brigandage prevailed in all parts of the country, and was accompanied with acts of the most revolting cruelty, which the government took no vigorous measures to suppress. Freeman's article in the Edinburgh Review for April, 1856, contains a clear and concise sketch of the history of the modern Greek nation as distinguished from the purely Hellenic race of classical antiquity, of the war of independence, and the subsequent condition of the country down to the time at which he was writing. But he first of all deals with the pretext for withholding sympathy from the modern Greeks, which alleged that they were mere impostors and not Greeks at all. Such an objection, absurd though it was, might be regarded as a natural retribution for resting the cause of Greek independence, as some persons did, upon grounds which were too narrow. There had been a vast deal too much talk about the descendants of Leonidas and Themistocles, about the glories of Marathon and Thermopylae. The Greeks and their friends were too apt to leap back two thousand years and ignore all history between the fight of Chaeronea(1) and the fight of Dragatshan(2). They were too apt also to isolate the cause of the Greek from the general cause of subject nations. The real grounds for sympathy with the Greeks

(1) The decisive victory of Philip of Macedon over the Athenians and their allies, B.C. 338.

(2) The first great decisive victory of the Greeks over the Turks in the Revolution of A.d. 1821.

were, that they were an oppressed people rising against their oppressors, and a Christian people, oppressed as Christians, rising against infidel oppressors. The immortal associations of old Greece, the identity of language and, in many respects of character, between its ancient and its modern inhabitants, added, of course, a peculiar charm which could not attach to any other land or any other struggle: but the real merit of the Greek cause—the cause of religion, liberty, and civilization—must not be overshadowed by past associations, however glorious. As to purity of race, if no one but a genuine Hellene could claim our sympathy, and if no one was to be admitted as a genuine Hellene who could not produce a pure Dorian or Ionian pedigree, the cause might as well be given up at once. The modern Greeks were a very mixed race: but not more mixed than the modern English. If Macedonian, Slavonian, Albanian, Wallachian, Frankish, and even Turkish blood were mingled with the pure stock of the old Hellene, so was that of the old Anglo-Saxon mixed up with the blood of every race which he conquered and of every race which conquered him, as well as with that of every people whom commerce or persecution had led to settle in our island.

The life and letters of Edward A. Freeman, D.C.L., LL. D. By William Richard Wood Stephens pages 190-192.

[George S.]

I fully concur with you TM.With the greeks all doesn't seem to be because they aren't even sure what they are as the greek govt psyches them up to beleive the BS that somehow they have direct link with the ancients.Further more a lot of their presidents have been albaniens.The modern greeks cannot even admit to the simplest things which is pretty evident they live in their make beleive world.They are trying to be someone else in desperation. Can anyone explain to me why they should be picking on a little country called macedonia & bullying them to change their name.If that isn't weak i don't kbow what is.THey are so paranoic that they actually beleive a little country like macedonia which is 10 times less than greece can make them scared that they are calling themselves macedonian.Yes virginia there are stupid people around & countries called greece.

[Ottoman]

Modern Greeks are mixed people, just like Turks and all other Balkan region people, its really sad some Greeks think they are pure...

[Voltron]

Who said Greeks are pure Ottoman ? Greeks and Turks identify themselves using the same approach. We both know this. Both our countries in a modern sense were cemented after the population exchange. And it was Turkey that wanted to use religion as a way of exchanging each others people. We agreed.

Thats why you wont see a Greek claiming muslim Greeks as their own. We brand them Turks or Turkalvanos. Mehmed and Sinan had Greek background but you will never see us honor them as our own. Macedonians and Albanians have a different approach. They are the ones that use " purity " or " genetics " in their positions.

This is a good thread, I will try to read all of the sixteen pages and clarify and misconceptions some posters may have. Or at least I will try.

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

Macedonians and Albanians have a different approach. They are the ones that use " purity " or " genetics " in their positions.

Really? So you deny that greeks consider themselves as pure ancient greek descendants?

We know that we are Macedonians, and we never go to genetics to prove it. I can trace my family to the 19th century with documents of them being born Macedonian.

[Ottoman]

Who said Greeks are pure Ottoman ? Greeks and Turks identify themselves using the same approach. We both know this. Both our countries in a modern sense were cemented after the population exchange. And it was Turkey that wanted to use religion as a way of exchanging each others people. We agreed.

Thats why you wont see a Greek claiming muslim Greeks as their own. We brand them Turks or Turkalvanos. Mehmed and Sinan had Greek background but you will never see us honor them as our own. Macedonians and Albanians have a different approach. They are the ones that use " purity " or " genetics " in their positions.

This is a good thread, I will try to read all of the sixteen pages and clarify and misconceptions some posters may have. Or at least I will try.

You must be the first Greek that actually thinks this way, I dont know what happend to you, maybe you saw the light or something.

[Voltron]

You have got to be kidding Ottoman. I dont know who you talk to.

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

You have got to be kidding Ottoman. I dont know who you talk to.

Ottoman knows what he's talking about. But I love the way you dodge questions.

[Voltron]

what are you talking about ? Dodging questions ?
Im not your enemy mate, get off it.

[The LION will ROAR]

what are you talking about ? Dodging questions ?
Im not your enemy mate, get off it.

Surely not the Greeks hey Voltron......

How about you back up your theories, your like the rest of the modern "greeks" ...bunk and propaganda with no actual substance,,,
just like modern "greek" history and culture....all bunk, propaganda, and no actual substance