Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[Bill77]

Bill, did you want to add your five cents worth with regard to this latest revelation about Buf?

Hi Karposh.

Like you said, ill be more careful when quoting Greek sources.
Regarding the videos Amphipolis posted, i don't know why he expected we would understand what was going on since it was in the Greek language. Though i did sense (after years of experience with Greeks) that its was something disingenuous on his behalf and wasn't interested in conversing with him because i have re-evaluated my life priorities long ago, and paying attention to insincerity is long gone. Also the fact i am also aware to beware of Greeks bearing gifts

But regarding those videos and Amphipolis brief translation of content in those "Greek produced" videos, i find it strange how Greeks claim everything is pure Greek direct descendants of Ancient Greeks but on this occasion, they are attempting to prove impurity, i cant get my head around as to why. Mabe, just maybe since they are aware of the history of that particular village, such as the pride, heroism and having a Macedonian consciousness..... it could be that they feel its like flogging a dead horse trying to sustain the Greekness of that particular village. Like i said, i don't know, and im just speculating. I will also say, when i last visited the region, i noticed something very peculiar about Macedonian villages in Northern Greece that majority are known to be pro Macedonian. These villages are very neglected, such as poor infrastructure. It would be plausible to think its some kind of punishment, abandonment and not hard to guess why.

Finally, in-particular my ancestry side of this argument. Like LOM said, due to "Probably stuff that's been posted in these forums, couldn't quote any" at this moment...... in the 18th 19th century possibly earlier right up to the end of the Ottoman occupation, Vlachs were known as sheep or goat farmers. There are also some sources suggesting a "Vlach" wasn't meant in an ethnic sense, but a profession. Now im only going by those clues.... that i say i doubt my ancestors were Vlachs due to the history of our surname "Shapazoi" which was brought on due to an unfortunate event where their cattle contracted a disease known at the time in Macedonian as "Shapa" or "Shapka" which ive brought up previously and the fact they were cattle farmers. It probably isnt a strong argument, but unless i can get a hold of an time machine, this is all i have got to play with and i am sure there are many instances where today's known history, is based on such little but deemed plausible evidence.

[Bill77]

oh and one last thing to my above ^^ post.

I find it hard to believe if my ancestors spoke Vlach or those of many other Boufchani i know of, today we would have no trace of an accent associated with Macedonian speaking Vlachs. I have an auntie married to a Macedonian speaking Vlach from Pelister villages of Nezhepole who has a strong unmistakable accent.

[Amphipolis]

Nope Bill, I’m with you in this.

I have argued in dozens of cases when Carlin presents an apparently non-Vlach village as a Vlach one. When there’s nothing in google to indicate that, I tell him “go visit the place or ask the people, they’re still there, they’re in forums and websites and facebook pages”, so in the case of Bouf that was easier as you are all here.

I’ll be back (probably tomorrow) with more details about the Greek sources (Exarchos, Evangelidis, Poulianos), their nature and quality.



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[Bill77]

Nope Bill, I’m with you in this.

I have argued in dozens of cases when Carlin presents an apparently non-Vlach village as a Vlach one. When there’s nothing in google to indicate that, I tell him “go visit the place or ask the people, they’re still there, they’re in forums and websites and facebook pages”, so in the case of Bouf that was easier as you are all here.

I’ll be back (probably tomorrow) with more details about the Greek sources (Exarchos, Evangelidis, Poulianos), their nature and quality.



===

I doubt we are on the same page..... but carry on anyway.

[Carlin]

Nope Bill, I’m with you in this.

I have argued in dozens of cases when Carlin presents an apparently non-Vlach village as a Vlach one. When there’s nothing in google to indicate that, I tell him “go visit the place or ask the people, they’re still there, they’re in forums and websites and facebook pages”, so in the case of Bouf that was easier as you are all here.

I’ll be back (probably tomorrow) with more details about the Greek sources (Exarchos, Evangelidis, Poulianos), their nature and quality.



===

Analyze this.




“… on both sides of the river Struma, all the way to the ruins of Amphipolis, and from Amphipolis eastward to Kavala going from either side of the Pangaion mountain range … there are over one hundred Bulgarian villages and as many Aromanian-Vlach villages, but there are barely twenty Greek ones, if at all.”

Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković, 1860: "Folk songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians".

The territory delineated above had roughly one hundred Aromanian-Vlach villages in 1860. Verković described the Slavophone villages as Bulgarian - but interestingly, they did not outnumber the Vlach villages by a significant factor. In fact, his wording is rather clear -- "there are over one hundred Bulgarian villages and as many Aromanian-Vlach villages".

Can you name any Vlach villages today in this area? Do you know anything about it at all, and what happened to them? Did they evaporate into thin air, or did they become Modern Greeks? Is it likely that many of the residents today are not even aware of their origins - like the Kupatshari?

[Amphipolis]

About the Vlachs of Serres District this is very detailed (230 pages) and available. List of Vlach villages and settlements (pure Vlach or mixed) after page 58.

http://users.uowm.gr/kdinas/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/%CE%9F%CE%B9-%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85-%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%8D-%CE%A3%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%81%CF%8E%CE%BD.pdf

It's possible that your Bulgarian author covers also parts of Kavala district, (where my grandmother comes from), so I'm interested. Does he provide any names?

[Niko777]

That research from 1860 is interesting. Unfortunately half a century later, the Christian villages around Kavala shifted completely to the Greek language, but those villages that had converted to Islam were still speaking Macedonian. What does this mean? The church was a major player in Hellenizing the Christian population and encouraging the Greek language.

[Amphipolis]

Not sure what you're saying. Here's a map from Lithoxoou, refering to 1900 I guess. You can see details if you zoom in.

[Niko777]

Not sure what you're saying. Here's a map from Lithoxoou, refering to 1900 I guess. You can see details if you zoom in.

That map agrees with what I'm saying. Look at the Kavala region. The Macedonian language survived only in Muslim villages because the Christian villages replaced their language with Greek.

[Amphipolis]

That map agrees with what I'm saying. Look at the Kavala region. The Macedonian language survived only in Muslim villages because the Christian villages replaced their language with Greek.

What? Which colors are you looking at?

[tchaiku]

Ouuu that zone was so racially diverse.

[Niko777]

What? Which colors are you looking at?

Green with the crescent moons vs yellow

[Carlin]

Vasil Kanchov. Macedonia — ethnography and statistics Sofia, 1900, p. 90.

In Bulgarian:
Цѣлиятъ Горни Дебъръ е заплашенъ отъ поарнаутчанье. Българо-мухамеданскитѣ села, които допиратъ до арнаутски села, сѫ вече двуезични. Торбешитѣ смѣтатъ за гордость да се прѣдставятъ за арнаути. Жителитѣ на селата Острени, Търново, Кленье, Летенъ, Джепища, Ѫрбеле, Обоки, Макелари и др. прѣдпочитатъ да се казватъ арнаути и да говорятъ арнаутски. Торбешитѣ отъ с. Рàица, най-южно отъ подримскитѣ потурчени села, говорятъ повечето арнаутски и се броятъ вече като арнаути. Отъ друга страна християнското българско население се изселва много бързо отъ мѣстноститѣ Голо Бърдо, Пòле и Жупа. Отъ Голо Бърдо бѣгатъ главно въ гр. Дебъръ и въ Солунъ. Селата Вичища, Голейща и Писанки сѫ били въ началото на XIX. вѣкъ български, прѣди 30 години били наполовинъ български, а сега сѫ заселени отъ арнаути. Само въ Писанки сѫ останали още 3 български кѫщи.

In English:
All Upper Debar is threatened by Albanization. The Bulgarian-Muslim villages, which are near the Albanian villages, are already bilingual. The Torbeshi are proud to consider themselves as Albanians. The inhabitants of the villages Ostreni, Trnovo, Klenje, Leten, Dzhepishta, Erbele, Oboki, Makelari and others prefer to be called Albanians and to speak Albanian. The Torbesh village of Rajtsa, most southerly of the Islamicized villages of Lower Drim, speaks mostly Albanian and is already considered as an Albanian village. On the other hand, the Christian Bulgarian population is being expelled very quickly from the northeastern cities of Golo Brdo, Pòle and Zhupa. From Golo Brdo people mainly flee to Debar and Solun. The villages of Vichishta, Goleishta and Pisanki were at the beginning of the 19th century Bulgarian villages, 30 years ago they were half Bulgarian, and today they are settled by Albanians. There are only three Bulgarian houses left in Pisanki.

[tchaiku]

For the 1904 census of the 648,962 Greeks by church, 307,000 identified as Greek speakers, while about 250,000 as Slavic speakers and 99,000 as Vlach.

https://books.google.com/books?id=AIET_7ji7YAC&pg=PA208#v=onepage&q&f=false

[tchaiku]

Amphipolis what percentage did Asia Minor Greek Christians formed after they settled in Macedonia?