Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[Carlin]

- M. Steeg reported to M. Delcasse that the men of Wallachian dialect are "the most ardent champions of Hellenism." And it is a fact that I have found no Greeks more fanatical, intractable and irreconcilable than the Koutzo-Wallachians of Monastir.

- the Koutzo-Wallachians are Greeks in thought tradition, sympathy and aspiration. They are leaders in the struggle - a most ruthless and implacable struggle - against Roumania and against Bulgaria. They have formed a secret committee which is the terror of consuls, of the vali and of the comitadjis. Neither the Metropolitan, nor the Greek Consul can moderate their hot-headed patriotism. They look on all Europeans who are not Philhellenes as their enemies.

[Carlin]

The fleeing Moskopol Vlachs moved to Veles and Bitola in Macedonia and onward to the north. As many as 6,000 settled in Belgrade and across the Sava River in the Hapsburg town of of Zemun. They soon were trading in tobacco and grain and prospering. Belgrade was at the time a fortress town with a Turkish garrison and farmers' markets, anything but a metropolis. Somewhere along the way, living amid Slavs, these Vlachs acquired the nickname "Tsintsar" - most probably as a onomatopoetic way of replicating the sibilant sounds of Vlach speech (fatsa-face, fatsi-make, tsi-what).

By dint of their success in commerce and banking they also contributed mightily to making Belgrade into a real city with a real bourgeoisie. In the initial period among the Slavs (and elsewhere), Tsintsars used their Vlach language among themselves, but were accustomed to employ Greek in commerce, that being a more broadly understood tongue in Turkish-ruled Balkan countries. Gradually, they adopted the local language. (Even today, in Macedonia, where some Vlachs have become rich, again, "Tsintsar" is a joking synonym for "tightwad.")

By the 19th century, Tsintsars were entering Serbian intellectual life. An outstanding figure among them was Jovan Sterija Popovic (1806-1856), born in the Vojvodina region. He became a much loved and still performed playwright known as "the father of Serbian drama." Among his best-known works were "The Miser, or Kir Janja," "The Liar and the Consummate Liar," and "The Wicked Woman." Some of his comic characters, like The Miser, were Tsintsars, and spoke fragments of Vlach in his plays. In his short life and despite frequent illnesses, Sterija Popovic also served as a professor at the University of Kragujevac, and was instrumental in the building of Serbia’s educational system, National Museum, National Library, and the first theater in Belgrade.

A second renowned and much loved Serbian dramatist, Branislav Nusic (1864-1938) was also of Tsintsar origin, although this did not appear in any of his works. This could be explained by the fact that in his time, Tsintsars had been largely absorbed into Serbian society. His plays, among them, "A Member of Parliament," and "A Suspicious Person," poked fun at all levels of Serbian society, especially the bourgeoisie, from which he sprang. Nusic was very popular during the Communist regime of Josip Broz Tito because his plays caricaturized common enemies in a capitalist society. Borislav Pekic, another Serbian writer of partial Tsintsar origin (a grandmother was half-Vlach), seized on that ancestry as a central element in his epic vision not only of Balkan history but of the history of mankind back to the edge of mythological times.

A polymath, Pekic (1930-1992) grew up not knowing a word of Vlach. But he absorbed as much as he could of Tsintsar lore from his father and grandfather and then picked up what he could of the language from recordings, or from the works of Sterija Popovic.

URL:

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm

[Carlin]

Vlach villages of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki areas abandoned their Vlach language during the 18th century and 19th century. Similarly, Vlach villages of the mountain ranges/districts of Kavala, Drama and Serres also abandoned their Vlach language.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Vlach villages of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki areas abandoned their Vlach language during the 18th century and 19th century. Similarly, Vlach villages of the mountain ranges/districts of Kavala, Drama and Serres also abandoned their Vlach language.

Does it say which language they shifted to?

[Carlin]

Does it say which language they shifted to?

Greek of course.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Greek of course.

I've read a lot of sources that state the "Greek" language had mostly died out as a community vernacular at this point? Its main used was limited to liturgy.

[Amphipolis]

I've read a lot of sources that state the "Greek" language had mostly died out as a community vernacular at this point? Its main used was limited to liturgy.

Really? What kind of sources are these? (Carlin -type)?

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Really? What kind of sources are these? (Carlin -type)?

Probably stuff that's been posted in these forums, couldn't quote any.

[Amphipolis]

Vlach villages of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki areas abandoned their Vlach language during the 18th century and 19th century. Similarly, Vlach villages of the mountain ranges/districts of Kavala, Drama and Serres also abandoned their Vlach language.

And... what kind of book is this? What does it say before or after? Can you name 1 (one) Vlach village of Chalcidice? (just curious)

Also, let's put some flame in the forum. A week ago there was a discussion about Bouf / Akritas in Florina district where several members of the forum come from. I didn't want to mention this, but most of the short summaries and videos about the village state it was originally a Vlach village that was gradually Slavicised (linguistically). You're very interested in the Vlachs (as it seems). Do you know anything about it?

[vicsinad]

Also, let's put some flame in the forum. A week ago there was a discussion about Bouf / Akritas in Florina district where several members of the forum come from. I didn't want to mention this, but most of the short summaries and videos about the village state it was originally a Vlach village that was gradually Slavicised (linguistically). You're very interested in the Vlachs (as it seems). Do you know anything about it?

Slavicised? You mean to say Macedonianized, right? Because our language is Macedonian and the language the people from Selo Buf speak is Macedonian, right?

[Karposh]

Also, let's put some flame in the forum. A week ago there was a discussion about Bouf / Akritas in Florina district where several members of the forum come from. I didn't want to mention this, but most of the short summaries and videos about the village state it was originally a Vlach village that was gradually Slavicised (linguistically). You're very interested in the Vlachs (as it seems). Do you know anything about it?

I have two points to make with regard to your comment Amphipolis. Firstly, there is no need to spare us from any embarrassment, if indeed Buf was a Vlach village at some point in the past (which it never was). Unlike in Greece, we celebrate all of Macedonia's people including Vlachs. We are not ashamed of them or try to hide them in any way. We have even reserved a special spot in our national anthem for the most famous Vlach of them all - Pitu Guli. And, we don't try and pass him off as a Macedonian either. He was a Vlach and that's how history knows him.

Secondly, were "most of the short summaries and videos" about Buf being a Vlach village in the past from Greek sources? Evidently, it is not a Greek village so, of course, they will tell their Greek audience it was a Vlach village and not a Macedonian village. It's the lesser evil in Greek eyes. Better to explain it away as a Vlach village than a filthy Bulgarian one.

Buf is a very notable, proud and famous Macedonian village. A Vlach past would be difficult and next to impossible to mask, hide or disguise. Macedonian Wikipedia has the following historical background information with regard to the ethnic make-up, early settlement and economy of this village:

The village of Buf is a very old village which, according to tradition, was founded by craftsmen who made wooden spoons. Interestingly, in the immediate vicinity of the village, there is a locality that is still known as "Lažichari" to this very day. One of the oldest written pieces of information about the village of Surovičevo is found in the Turkish census annals from the 15th century, i.e. from the extensive census record number 16 for the Lerin Nahija from 1481, where, for the village recorded as Buh, it was also noted that there were 76 Christian Macedonian families who produced up to 125 loads of wheat, 94 loads of barley, 7 loads of rye, 3 loads of millet, 2 loads beans, lentils, vegetables, honey, cultivated vineyards, etc.

Some historical observations about Buf are also given by Gjorche Petrov who observed that on the top of the mountain summit Gradiste there are ruins from an old fortress, from which only ruined walls and some drainage pipes remain. The villagers claim that the water there flowed through pipes from the opposing, southern peak of Brezovica, which is much higher than Gradishte (Note: Gradishte means an urban settlement in Macedonian). At the foot of Gradishte, there were also dry water pipes at that time, which clearly indicates that they were bringing water from Brezovica to the fortress. The locals told Petrov that a prince (or nobleman) whose name they did not know barricaded himself in the fortress, defending it for a very long time. It was only through pure chance that an enemy's mule accidentally exposed the water pipes that led to the Gradishte fortress, as a result of extreme thirst, and caused the enemy to stop the water from reaching the fortress which lead to his eventual surrender. At the time of his visit in 1896, near the end of the XIX century, Gjorche Petrov wrote that Buff had 200 households with 2,120 inhabitants, all of them Macedonians under the clergy of the Exarchate. The villagers are distinguished for being very brave and heroic. The streets of the village were uneven, and some were paved with narrow rough cobblestones. Several streams overgrown with dense forest cut across the village. The houses were covered with straw. There is a church built 30 years ago (1860), whose construction is huge, rough and stiff. In the schools (male and female) the lessons are conducted in the Macedonian language. It is said that Buf, like Armensko, was founded by spoon-making artisans. On the northeast side of the village, the place is still called "Lazhichari". Perhaps those spoon-makers were from the Poreche area. Among the population there was no story, nor songs about the origin of the name Buff. Until 1894, the village fell under the Greek Patriarchate's spiritual jurisdiction. However, the bad behavior of the three former Buf priests forced the peasants to recognize the clergy of the Bulgarian Exarchate, while the Greek bishop, in an effort to deter Bufchani from the Exarchate, managed to close the village church for several months.

Bulgarian Wikipedia reiterates all of the above with the notable exception of replacing the term Macedonian with Bulgarian. Gjorche Petrov apparently also used the term Bulgarian when describing the village and its people...But that's not the point. The point is, Buf has never had a Vlach presence in the village.

[Carlin]

And... what kind of book is this? What does it say before or after? Can you name 1 (one) Vlach village of Chalcidice? (just curious)

Also, let's put some flame in the forum. A week ago there was a discussion about Bouf / Akritas in Florina district where several members of the forum come from. I didn't want to mention this, but most of the short summaries and videos about the village state it was originally a Vlach village that was gradually Slavicised (linguistically). You're very interested in the Vlachs (as it seems). Do you know anything about it?

ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ




1) In Buf, until the 19th century, the Vlach dialect was spoken, and then the inhabitants were linguistically Slavicized, as was the case in many parts of Macedonia.

URL:

http://ethnologic.blogspot.ca/2012/06/blog-post_08.html

2) Also here (Giōrgēs Exarchos, Achilleus G. Lazarou):

https://books.google.ca/books?id=alJoAAAAMAAJ&q=%CE%9C%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%86+%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE&dq=%CE%9C%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%86+%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig8_uMtLLaAhUM_IMKHb-YAmgQ6AEIKTAA

[Karposh]

ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ




1) In Buf, until the 19th century, the Vlach dialect was spoken, and then the inhabitants were linguistically Slavicized, as was the case in many parts of Macedonia.

URL:

http://ethnologic.blogspot.ca/2012/06/blog-post_08.html

2) Also here (Giōrgēs Exarchos, Achilleus G. Lazarou):
https://books.google.ca/books?id=alJ...-YAmgQ6AEIKTAA

Carlin, do you know for a fact that Buf had a Vlach past based on hard evidence from Bufchani themselves or is the quote you provided (in bold for emphasis) from the Greek source provided?

Bill, did you want to add your five cents worth with regard to this latest revelation about Buf?

[Carlin]

Carlin, do you know for a fact that Buf had a Vlach past based on hard evidence from Bufchani themselves or is the quote you provided (in bold for emphasis) from the Greek source provided?

Bill, did you want to add your five cents worth with regard to this latest revelation about Buf?

This is a translation from the Greek source.

It is possible a Vlach population lived in Buf - alongside others, and they may have been assimilated. We do not know much. Human memory and/or traditions (oral traditions, interviews) have been proven to be weak/poor proofs or evidence of anything.

As a similar example, the residents of Заграчани/Zagračani seem to have been speaking a language other than Albanian (.. recently). According to Evtim Sprostranov, the inhabitants of Zagračani were Pomaks who at the beginning of the 20th century still spoke Bulgarian, but because of the mixed marriages with the Albanians in Radolista they were subjected to Albanization. This data is also confirmed by Yakim Derebanov, who in his 1907 report also wrote that the inhabitants of the village are 397 "Bulgarian-Muslims (Pomaks)", who are supposed to have accepted Islam some 150 years earlier.

URL:

https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8

There are numerous other examples throughout the Balkans.

[Karposh]

This is a translation from the Greek source.

It is possible a Vlach population lived in Buf - alongside others, and they may have been assimilated. We do not know much. Human memory and/or traditions (oral traditions, interviews) have been proven to be weak/poor proofs or evidence of anything.

We should be more careful when quoting Greek sources. Greek sources claim that my dad's village in Bitola, Brusnik, once had a Greek population because the main church there, Sveti Dimitrija, was under Greek jurisdiction. It's surprising to me today but during the early 1900's Brusnichani were quite divided, as most of Macedonia was, with regards to church affiliation. Fist fights were not uncommon as my grandfather often recalled. It was a battle, along church lines, between those who attended Sveti Dimitrija and those who attended Sveti Spas, which was under Bulgarian jurisdiction.

However, the folk history of a place doesn't easily disappear and its the native people that know the true history of a place despite what foreign sources may claim. One of the things that Brusnichani pride themselves on is the fact that Brusnik has never had a single person live there that wasn't Macedonian in its entire 620 year old history of known existence under the name of Brusnik. Before it was known as Brusnik, the local village folk tradition is that a much older settlement once existed there that went by the name of "Lipa", a tree that is quite abundant in the mountain forests above Brusnik. Lipa translates to the Tilia, or more commonly, the Linden tree.

Who knows, I might find one day that Greek sources have claimed that Brusnik, like they claim of Buf, once had a Vlach population too. Does it make so? Absolutely not. Because the native population would know such a thing.

I mentioned on another thread the nearby Pelister villages of Nezhepole, Malovishte, Trnovo, Magarevo and Gopesh, once massively populated Vlach villages and today, for all intents and purposes, small Macedonian villages. If you weren't a local from the mountainside area of Bitola, you would never know that these villages were once huge Vlach villages, however, the local people know its past and who was who back then. Even though most of these villages are now Macedonian-speaking and pretty much assimilated, they are still known to everyone in Bitola as Vlach villages. There is nothing to hide and they will always be known as Vlach villages. The same is not true of Brusnik...or Buf!!!

I would not underestimate the collective folk memory and, as you say, the "oral traditions" of a people Carlin. I do not accept that they have been proven to be weak or poor in using as proof or evidence of anything. As an example, no one would have possibly known that the original name of my dad's village Brusnik, was once Lipa had it not been for the collective folk memory of Brusnichani and Brusnichani alone. No one else would have bothered to care.