greek OMONIA organization claims rights from albania...

[Dimko-piperkata]

..if the catalogue with the seven claims go unrecognized, grease will block albanians eu entry :D

YouTube - Organizata antikombetare OMONIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofvUZLpJWtQ&feature=email)

[Soldier of Macedon]

I hope they pursue this line of thinking and action, contradicting morons.......

[Dimko-piperkata]

Albania condemns Omonia's memorandum

Tirana /11/12/ 11:03

Albanian government denounced the Memorandum of Omonia - Association of Greek minority in Albania - Makfax correspondent said on Thursday.

The memo calls on Greece not to ratify the Stabilization and Association Agreement (SAA) between Albania and the European Union as long as Albania grants administrative autonomy to Greek minority in Vorio Epi, southern Albania.

Prime Minister Sali Berisha labeled the memorandum "extremist outburst" and urged the Greek government not to cave in to Omonia's demands.

"Greek minority in Albania enjoys all rights it has been entitled to, and these rights will be expanded if it is necessary," Berisha said.

Some lawmakers in Albanian parliament called for indictment against Omonia leader Vasil Bolano, who is also a mayor of Himara.
http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=134793&NrIssue=843&NrSection=20

[Soldier of Macedon]

"Greek minority in Albania enjoys all rights it has been entitled to, and these rights will be expanded if it is necessary," Berisha said.
How exactly will they be expanded I wonder.......

I can't recall exactly, but is this the guy that once said Macedonians in Albania should get more rights, that Albania should change placenames back to Macedonian originals, and then turned around and called the Republic of Macedonia by the artificial acronym?

[TerraNova]

I m sure Albanians will comply with Greek requests,and join EU after some years.
And of course Serbia will follow.

:)

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9294/bgmkxe9xz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/bgmkxe9xz6.jpg/1/w638.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img237/bgmkxe9xz6.jpg/1/)

[Soldier of Macedon]

I hope all of you end up in the same place.:)

[Pelister]

My only concern is that Macedonians can get something out of this.

The poor Maks have been sidelined for too long.

I read an interesting article related to the peace conference in London following the first balkan war - where Macedonian organizations petititioned the congress and sent memo's begging to govern them themselves.

They weren't invited, and their petitions and memo's were not listed on the agenda, or mentioned.

How is that for being frozen out of your destiny ?

[osiris]

yeah albania needs better roads thats for sure and joinng greece, oops sorry the eu will guarantee it gets them and terra nova will become the greek governor of albania.

[TerraNova]

yeah albania needs better roads thats for sure and joinng greece, oops sorry the eu will guarantee it gets them and terra nova will become the greek governor of albania.

Ιn fact this is from Bulgaria-RoM's borders.:)

[Soldier of Macedon]

Excellent, the Macedonians on both sides of the border can have something to play target practice with.

[TerraNova]

Excellent, the Macedonians on both sides of the border can have something to play target practice with.

If u succeed on persuading 95% of Pirin region they are not Bulgarians as their grandfathers declared :)

[Soldier of Macedon]

Please show me the evidence of where the grandfather's of 95% of the population in Pirin declared as Bulgarians. Do you have official documents for 95% of the population? Or is this another wisper you picked up from your fat Albanian kinsmen while he was coaching you on your artificial "Hellenism"?

How can there be an 'ethnic' Greek in Albania according to your definition of a 'Greek'? Is a Vlach in Albania still a 'Greek'? What's an 'ethnic' Greek?

[Daskalot]

If u succeed on persuading 95% of Pirin region they are not Bulgarians as their grandfathers declared :)

You are very ignorant.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Census_in_Pirin_MacedoniaBulgaria.jpg

as you will notice there are Macedonians i Voulgaria.

[TerraNova]

You are very ignorant.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Census_in_Pirin_MacedoniaBulgaria.jpg

as you will notice there are Macedonians i Voulgaria.

Ah ..after the treaty between Yugoslavia and Bulgaria,under Daddy Stalin supervision...which was altered some years after..

And where are all these now? Are there still 90% ethnic Macedonians there?

[Daskalot]

Ah ..after the treaty between Yugoslavia and Bulgaria,under Daddy Stalin supervision...which was altered some years after..

And where are all these now? Are there still 90% ethnic Macedonians there?

Would you believe me if we get a statement from an official Bulgarian source?

[Pelister]

Thats great info Daskalot.

If there was an ethnic census in Bulgaria, how many to you think would declare Macedonian ethnicity ?

I think that number, 170,000 strikes me as probably pretty accurate for today too.

[TerraNova]

Would you believe me if we get a statement from an official Bulgarian source?

Of 1946 ,or modern ?

[Risto the Great]

Of 1946 ,or modern ?

Seriously, what would have more of an impact on you?

[TerraNova]

Seriously, what would have more of an impact on you?

http://news.guide-bulgaria.com/News.aspx?1687=Census_2001_Ethnic_Groups_in_Bulgar ia_(self-awareness)

According to the Bulgarian census there were 5.071 people self identifying as Macedonians in Bulgaria ,in 2001.

[Risto the Great]

http://news.guide-bulgaria.com/News.aspx?1687=Census_2001_Ethnic_Groups_in_Bulgar ia_(self-awareness)

According to the Bulgarian census there were 5.071 people self identifying as Macedonians in Bulgaria ,in 2001.
Interesting.
So you would prefer to rely on modern statistics. Clearly there were many more self-declaring Macedonians in Bulgaria 50 years earlier. I suspect you believe modern Greek statistics about homogeneity as well. Greeks seem to be very accepting of changes to ethnicity. Why do you think this is the case?

[TerraNova]

Interesting.
So you would prefer to rely on modern statistics. Clearly there were many more self-declaring Macedonians in Bulgaria 50 years earlier. I suspect you believe modern Greek statistics about homogeneity as well. Greeks seem to be very accepting of changes to ethnicity. Why do you think this is the case?

There are no "data of homogeneity in Greece"-that's your assumptions.
If you have any official data post them.

As for the manipulated data of Communist Bulgaria ...do you think they are a valid source?
And if yes...which year's ?

"The 1946 census, for example, identified over 250,000 Macedonians, reportedly to back President Georgi Dimitrov's short-lived plan for federation with Yugoslavia. Then, between the censuses of 1956 and 1965, the number of Macedonians dropped from 187,789 to 9,632. After that time, the Bulgarian census ceased identifying citizens by nationality."

[Risto the Great]

There was no reason for 187,789 Macedonians in 1956 under your assumption then.

[TerraNova]

There was no reason for 187,789 Macedonians in 1956 under your assumption then.

After 9 years ...they are 9.000.
What happened to these 178.000 ?:) David Coperfield was there?

[Soldier of Macedon]

If he was, then he must have stopped off in Greece first. Rumour has it that they suffer from the same delusions where hundreds of thousands of people turn into a few thousand with the flick or the pen (or wand apparently).

[Risto the Great]

After 9 years ...they are 9.000.
What happened to these 178.000 ?:) David Coperfield was there?
Please forgive me, it is difficult to understand the mind of a moron, are you saying the Macedonians disappeared? Or are you saying they were never Macedonians? Why did so many self-identify as Macedonian after Dimitrov's death? I have no idea what you are trying to suggest.

[TerraNova]

Please forgive me, it is difficult to understand the mind of a moron, are you saying the Macedonians disappeared? Or are you saying they were never Macedonians? Why did so many self-identify as Macedonian after Dimitrov's death? I have no idea what you are trying to suggest.

If you used your mind you would easily have found the answer.
I m saying that i don't trust manipulated communist data.

Do you?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do you trust Xenophobic data that believes 98% of its population are one in the same people?

[TerraNova]

Do you trust Xenophobic data that believes 98% of its population are one in the same people?

SoM...i think you are the most obsessed person i ve ever talked to.

First it was the GreekConstitution1822 obsession
-You couldn't understand that a Constitution is Law-and Law cannot define ethnicity,but citizenship.

Now it's 98%ethnicGreeks obsession
-You can't understand that simply Greece does not
collect data on ethnicity.(Like France and other countries)

[Pelister]

SoM...i think you are the most obsessed person i ve ever talked to.

First it was the GreekConstitution1822 obsession
-You couldn't understand that a Constitution is Law-and Law cannot define ethnicity,but citizenship.

Now it's 98%ethnicGreeks obsession
-You can't understand that simply Greece does not
collect data on ethnicity.(Like France and other countries)

If that is the case, and if we follow this through logically, then there are no ethnic Greeks in Greece today, at least not officially.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Good point Pelister, and one I have repeatedly tried to extract from this guy and that other joker who slithers his way in and out of topics.

What is a Greek? A Greek citizen of his own country, regardless of ethnic origins, would equate himself on equal par with a citizen of Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia and Slovakia. Fair enough. This is normal.

However, an ethnic Serb would equate himself as a citizen of his own country on equal par with an ethnic Macedonian from Macedonia, or an ethnic Croatian from Croatia, or an ethnic Slovak from Slovakia, these are ethnicities, they have their own common languages, culture and history. Of course, the Roma (or gypsies) in the above countries are Serb, Macedonian, Croatian and Slovak citizens respectively, but they are different ethnicities, they have their own languages and native culture and history.

Now answer this bre citizen of Xenophobia, HOW MANY ETHNIC GREEKS IN GREECE? Give us an estimate at least, 97%? 98%?

TerraNova, show yourself as a person willing to engage in constructive dialogue and answer the question above.

[Pelister]

Good point Pelister, and one I have repeatedly tried to extract from this guy and that other joker who slithers his way in and out of topics.

What is a Greek? A Greek citizen of his own country, regardless of ethnic origins, would equate himself on equal par with a citizen of Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia and Slovakia. Fair enough. This is normal.

However, an ethnic Serb would equate himself as a citizen of his own country on equal par with an ethnic Macedonian from Macedonia, or an ethnic Croatian from Croatia, or an ethnic Slovak from Slovakia, these are ethnicities, they have their own common languages, culture and history. Of course, the Roma (or gypsies) in the above countries are Serb, Macedonian, Croatian and Slovak citizens respectively, but they are different ethnicities, they have their own languages and native culture and history.

Now answer this bre citizen of Xenophobia, HOW MANY ETHNIC GREEKS IN GREECE? Give us an estimate at least, 97%? 98%?

TerraNova, show yourself as a person willing to engage in constructive dialogue and answer the question above.

Isn't it interesting how on the one hand he can say that Greece does not collect data on ethnicity, so we can assume their is no official data on the ethnic Greek or any other ethnic group in Greece, and yet on the other hand, remind us that Greece is 98% Greek. What does he mean by that ?

The notion of being "Greek" is being pushed further and further in more exotic territory.

Its' a fkn freak show.

[TerraNova]

Isn't it interesting how on the one hand he can say that Greece does not collect data on ethnicity, so we can assume their is no official data on the ethnic Greek or any other ethnic group in Greece, and yet on the other hand, remind us that Greece is 98% Greek. What does he mean by that ?

The notion of being "Greek" is being pushed further and further in more exotic territory.

Its' a fkn freak show.

Can you or any other...just GIVE EVIDENCE ABOUT THIS?

Who the hell told "Greece is 98% Greek" ?

[Soldier of Macedon]

The Greek state did you blind liar.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Now answer this bre citizen of Xenophobia, HOW MANY ETHNIC GREEKS IN GREECE? Give us an estimate at least, 97%? 98%?
Answer the question.

[Daskalot]

Here is what the CIA World Factbook states on Greece:

People Greece

Population: 10,722,816 (July 2008 est.)
.
.
.
Nationality: noun: Greek(s)
adjective: Greek

Ethnic groups: population: Greek 93%, other (foreign citizens) 7% (2001 census)
note: percents represent citizenship, since Greece does not collect data on ethnicity

Religions: Greek Orthodox 98%, Muslim 1.3%, other 0.7%

Languages: Greek 99% (official), other 1% (includes English and French)
.
.
.

I see that they have revised themselves, before they were 98.1% if I remember correctly.

[TerraNova]

Here is what the CIA World Factbook states on Greece:

People Greece

Population: 10,722,816 (July 2008 est.)
.
.
.
Nationality: noun: Greek(s)
adjective: Greek

Ethnic groups: population: Greek 93%, other (foreign citizens) 7% (2001 census)
note: percents represent citizenship, since Greece does not collect data on ethnicity

Religions: Greek Orthodox 98%, Muslim 1.3%, other 0.7%

Languages: Greek 99% (official), other 1% (includes English and French)
.
.
.

I see that they have revised themselves, before they were 98.1% if I remember correctly.


............

[slovenec zrinski]

Wasn´t there a law in 1982 that allowed for the return of refugees if they declared themselves "greek by genus"?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes there was, not sure of the year though. I think it is cited in the Helsinki report from Aegean Macedonia, I will see if I can locate it unless somebody else does first.

[slovenec zrinski]

Thanks SoM.
Well..if they have a law that stipulates a person to be greek by genus for being allowed to return then this state surely must think of the greeks in a racial, and not only religious, way...

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War

In 1982 the Greek government enabled an Amnesty Law. Law 400/76 permitted the return and repatriation of the political refugees who had left Greece during the Greek Civil War. However, the ministerial decree stated that those free to return were “all Greeks by genus who during the Civil War of 1946-1949 and because of it have fled abroad as political refugees”. This excluded many people who were not “Greeks by genus” such as the ethnic Macedonians who had fled Greece following the Civil War. Those who identified as something other than “Greek by genus” were not included in the law and were unable to resume their citizenship or property.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Zrinski, check below, it is a scanned page from the Helsinki Report in Aegean Macedonia with regard to the 'Greek by genus' law:

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1460/lastscan1tc2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[slovenec zrinski]

Thank you :) Exactly what I was looking for.
And then there are greeks that claim that Greece doesn´t speak in racial terms and only sees greeks as citizens, in a religious sense etc etc etc.

[Demos]

Thank you :) Exactly what I was looking for.
And then there are greeks that claim that Greece doesn´t speak in racial terms and only sees greeks as citizens, in a religious sense etc etc etc.


In Greece when we say "Έλλην" we mean someone who is Greek in ethnological terms and someone who belongs to the Greek Orthodox Church. All others are usually not considered Greek at least by the common people.

[Risto the Great]

In Greece when we say "Έλλην" we mean someone who is Greek in ethnological terms and someone who belongs to the Greek Orthodox Church. All others are usually not considered Greek at least by the common people.
So, given that the Church of Istanbul rules over the "New Territories" including the Macedonian provinces, then Macedonians cannot be Έλλην under your definition.

[Demos]

So, given that the Church of Istanbul rules over the "New Territories" including the Macedonian provinces, then Macedonians cannot be Έλλην under your definition.

If someone doesn't feel an allegiance towards the Hellenic Republic, prefers to speak in a different language other than Greek and has allegiance towards a foreign country, they probably would not be considered Greek in the ethnological sense by the common people.

In the political sense (ie citizen) they probably would be.

[Risto the Great]

Thanks for the revised definition.
Let me know when you settle on a final one.

has allegiance towards a foreign country
Most Macedonians in Greece have no allegiance to the Republic of Macedonia.
You have simplified something that is far too complex to be trivialised in this fashion.

[Demos]

Thanks for the revised definition.
Let me know when you settle on a final one.


Most Macedonians in Greece have no allegiance to the Republic of Macedonia.
You have simplified something that is far too complex to be trivialised in this fashion.

I agree with your assessment, they probably do not. However, I have met Greeks in the United States who were born and raised in that country and they do not feel an allegiance towards the United States. They will always say they are Greek first.

Are we to consider those people as Americans? Perhaps American citizens (ie passport holders), but definitely not Americans in the national sense.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Demos, in your opinion, how much % of the population do the ethnic Hellenes make up in Greece?

[Demos]

Demos, in your opinion, how much % of the population do the ethnic Hellenes make up in Greece?

From my travels around Greece I would say the following. The foreign or immigrant population in Greece right now is around 7%. The Muslim (Turks/Pomaks) are around 2%. 2% for the Vlachs, Gypsies, Arvanites, Macedonians, and other smaller minorities numbering between 1,000-40,000 or so.

I would estimate the ethnic Greek population to be around 89%-90% give or take with the other 10% non-ethnic Greek.

Of course some would say that Vlachs, Arvanites and other smaller minorities are fully Hellenized despite being able to speak in another language, but I think 89-90% is probably a fair assessment maybe +- 2%.

Population of Greece is 11.2 million people (2008 estimate). Greece does not conduct ethnographic type census, same as France and other European nations.

[Soldier of Macedon]

From my travels around Greece I would say the following. The foreign or immigrant population in Greece right now is around 7%. The Muslim (Turks/Pomaks) are around 2%. 2% for the Vlachs, Gypsies, Arvanites, Macedonians, and other smaller minorities numbering between 1,000-40,000 or so.

I would estimate the ethnic Greek population to be around 89%-90% give or take with the other 10% non-ethnic Greek.

Of course some would say that Vlachs, Arvanites and other smaller minorities are fully Hellenized despite being able to speak in another language, but I think 89-90% is probably a fair assessment maybe +- 2%.

Population of Greece is 11.2 million people (2008 estimate). Greece does not conduct ethnographic type census, same as France and other European nations.
Appreciate the honesty, of course I do not agree with you, as you consider 'ethnic Greeks' those who up until 60-80 years ago only spoke Macedonian and for centuries prior. I have actually opened up a thread with regard to national census' in Greece, perhaps you can share some information there also.

[Demos]

Appreciate the honesty, of course I do not agree with you, as you consider 'ethnic Greeks' those who up until 60-80 years ago only spoke Macedonian and for centuries prior. I have actually opened up a thread with regard to national census' in Greece, perhaps you can share some information there also.

SOM,

People who spoke only Macedonian 60-80 years ago are probably already dead or with one foot in the grave, just like the people in Asia Minor who only spoke Greek are so what people did 100, 80, or 60 years ago is not relevant to today.

In my opinion I estimate that the Macedonians living in Greece are probably around 17,000-30,000. From what I have seen 55% of those are what you guys probably refer to as "Grkomani" (ie Hellenized Macedonians), 40% probably recognize that they are different in ethnic terms, but are not interested in national/minority type issues (only care about life, feeding their families etc), and you probably have 5% which are more nationalistic in the sense that they would like to separate and be part of ROM.

These of course are my own estimates and do not reflect any kind of official data.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes, quite a few probably's there. Probably the descendants of those dead people mentioned have the same blood, probably they are still blood related to the people in the region who formed the majority, probably some "feeling" created 60-80 years ago does not substitute the truth, whether it is spoken about or not.

[Venom]

Thirty thousand you reckon demos? And where do you get that figure from?

So Demos, you agree that the people living there spoke only Macedonian?

There used to be a bloke next door who thought the same thing. Thing was he also thought he could trace his family tree back to 600BC (seriously). Then we found out he was pontiac. Ah well.

[Sarafot]

In a video that i posted the Tv guy saies that Eu commision asumed 75.000 Macedonians to speak Macedonian language in Greece.
Take a look in that video Demos:)

[Demos]

Thirty thousand you reckon demos? And where do you get that figure from?

So Demos, you agree that the people living there spoke only Macedonian?

There used to be a bloke next door who thought the same thing. Thing was he also thought he could trace his family tree back to 600BC (seriously). Then we found out he was pontiac. Ah well.


That's just a personal estimate based on multiplying the votes the Rainbow party received by a factor of 4 or 5. As for only speaking Macedonian, that I don' think one can say. I'm sure most people in the region probably spoke Macedonian, Greek, and probably Turkish (official state language). Regardless of the number I think most would agree that the majority of Macedonians are fully integrated into Greek society (what you term Grkoman) or most simply don't bother enough to care. Although, I'm sure there is a minority within the community who are active about their ethnic background in the political sense (voters of Rainbow for example).

That's good to hear that he's from Pontus. There were many Greek colonies established along the Pontus coastline on the Black Sea between 800-400BC.

[Demos]

In a video that i posted the Tv guy saies that Eu commision asumed 75.000 Macedonians to speak Macedonian language in Greece.
Take a look in that video Demos:)


Okay, let us assume that 75,000 are able to speak Macedonian. 75,000 in a country of 11.3 million is 0.66%.

[Sarafot]

I think i know your problem,if you denide Macedonians the whole territory along Aegean,black sea,mediteranean sea can easy claimed as Greek lands,wright?

But Macedonians change that picture,so the easyest way is to claim that they are Ellini,wright?

Yes i belive so,tray to convince me? I'm the real on BUCKEFALUS!:D

[Demos]

I think i know your problem,if you denide Macedonians the whole territory along Aegean,black sea,mediteranean sea can easy claimed as Greek lands,wright?

But Macedonians change that picture,so the easyest way is to claim that they are Ellini,wright?

Yes i belive so,tray to convince me? I'm the real on BUCKEFALUS!:D

Sarafot,

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Some matters are not subjective to debate (for example the population of countries), while others are subjective. In Macedonia you have one opinion and in Greece we have another opinion. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle.

That's all.

[Sarafot]

Okay, let us assume that 75,000 are able to speak Macedonian. 75,000 in a country of 11.3 million is 0.66%.

It is so hard for Ellini to admit 0.66% of Macedonians?Why? 11,3 millions are afraied of 0,66%

Sramota=Shame ELLINI, shame!:(

[Demos]

It is so hard for Ellini to admit 0.66% of Macedonians?Why? 11,3 millions are afraied of 0,66%

Sramota=Shame ELLINI, shame!:(

I don't think it's hard. I just think the rest of the population which are over 2.5 million and Greek get offended as they don't see you as Macedonian but instead see you as a million other things. In the same fashion as Macedonians don't see Greeks as "Greek Macedonian" or even Greeks in some extreme cases.

[Sarafot]

I don't think it's hard. I just think the rest of the population which are over 2.5 million and Greek get offended as they don't see you as Macedonian but instead see you as a million other things. In the same fashion as Macedonians don't see Greeks as "Greek Macedonian" or even Greeks in some extreme cases.

Fine i understand,but tell me how can Asian Greeks(Smirna and Trebezon) call them self Macedonian Greeks?

I also can understand thouse who speak Greek,ie Macedonians who speak greek,but they are steel Macedonians not Greeks?

Do you disagree?:confused: