The Illyrians

[Napoleon]

Hi SOM,

Here's a sample of what the Croatians considered their language to be in some old dictionaries. Can anybody produce any evidence that the Albanians considered their language to be 'Illyrian' prior the late 1800's when the Austrians discovered their Illyrian 'origins' for them.

1604 - Bartol Kašić, Institutiones linguæ Illyricæ


1740 - Ivan Belosteneć, Gazophylacium Illyrico-Latinum


1785 - Ardelio Della Bella, Dizionario italiano-latino-illirico, a cui si premettono alcune brevi instruzioni gramaticali, nesessarie per apprendere la lingua e l’ortografia illirica


1801 - Joakim Stulli, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum ditissimum, ac locupletissimum, in quo adferuntur usitatiores, elegantiores, difficiliores earundem linguarum phrases, loquendi formula, ac proverbia


1854 - Vjekoslav Babukić, Ilirska slovnica

[makedonin]

So far I asked Albanians if they have any books where they refer to their language as Illyrian, no one had anything to post or reply.... So the answear to the question would be no.....

By the way, those are good copy's, I have one or two my self, but you made a good point.......


Here is a German Illyrian dictionary

Here is the Introduction:

[Delodephius]

My mother's friend's mother in law from Bosnia still has the tattoos on her arms. And most old women I saw in the village there also had them. As far as I know only Catholic women still uphold this tradition and I think it is again becoming popular with the youth, although I doubt they'll be old fashioned tattoos.

[Soldier of Macedon]

More from John Wilkes:

While some scholars appear entirely engaged with placing Illyrian in this or that group, there are indications that some of the divergences once regarded as definitive in the two Indo-European groups (my note: satem and centum) in fact arose at a much later stage of the development of the language. In the end the strongest evidence for the connection between Illyrian and Albanian must be the few direct correspondences of vocabulary often cited. page 73.

I would say that the correspondence in vocabulary between Illyrian and Slavic is stronger.

At the beginning of the book John Wilkes cites what seems to be the very first time that the idea of Illyrian origins for the modern Albanian is conjured. Fittingly, it is a Germanic, just like for Greece.

The first detailed account of the ancient Illyrians appeared in the Albanesische Studien of J.G von Hahn, published at Jena in 1854, in which the author advanced the proposition that modern Albanians were descended from ancient Illyrians. Page 5.

[Napoleon]

Hi SOM

The first detailed account of the ancient Illyrians appeared in the Albanesische Studien of J.G von Hahn, published at Jena in 1854, in which the author advanced the proposition that modern Albanians were descended from ancient Illyrians.

Its ironic that J.G von Hahn (Johann Georg von Hahn) was an Austrian diplomat at the time of making his proposition that the Albanians were descended from the ancient Illyrians. This is significant because at that time the Croatians and Slovenians were going through a period of national awakening which entailed demanding autonomy within the Austro-Hungarian empire. The movement was known as the Illyrian Movement.

The Austrian response was simple, while Austrian scholars were busy proposing that the Albanians were descended from the ancient Illyrians (which became official Austrian state policy) they also began propagating the theory that the Croatians and Slovenians were just merely nomadic 'Slavs', the product of a 6th century migration and therefore they didn't really 'own' the lands they came to settle anyway. The Austrian officials backed up this policy by making all reference to the word 'Illyria' or 'Illyrians' a death penalty offence in Slovenia and Croatia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Napoleon

Hi SOM



Its ironic that J.G von Hahn (Johann Georg von Hahn) was an Austrian diplomat at the time of making his proposition that the Albanians were descended from the ancient Illyrians. This is significant because at that time the Croatians and Slovenians were going through a period of national awakening which entailed demanding autonomy within the Austro-Hungarian empire. The movement was known as the Illyrian Movement.

The Austrian response was simple, while Austrian scholars were busy proposing that the Albanians were descended from the ancient Illyrians (which became official Austrian state policy) they also began propagating the theory that the Croatians and Slovenians were just merely nomadic 'Slavs', the product of a 6th century migration and therefore they didn't really 'own' the lands they came to settle anyway. The Austrian officials backed up this policy by making all reference to the word 'Illyria' or 'Illyrians' a death penalty offence in Slovenia and Croatia.

Hey Napoleon, that is a very important point that you have just highlighted. Had it not been for this Austrian writer, the modern Albanians would not be claiming an Illyrian origin, and the right to claim these people would have correctly remained with the Slavic-speakers of the west Balkans.

[Soldier of Macedon]

More from Wilkes:

Page 219:

In the matter of physical character skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries suggests no more than average height (male 1.65 m, female 1.53 m). Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian ahtropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians.

Here is something from pages 221-222:

As an alternative to wine the Greeks learned of an excellent recipe for mead made from honey and water from the Taulantii near Dyrrachium, still consumed by the Pannonian Illyrians in the age of Attila the Hun.

That seems to be in relation to Mario Alinei's explanation of the Slavic word 'medu', meaning honey, used among the natives in the area north of the Danube, at a time when Attila had reigned over them.

http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf

[makedonin]

What do you think about this one:

Another ancient Illyrian element is the plain local “opinga”, (kind of mocassina).
http://worldmusiccentral.org/article...41228040955584

As far as I know, this opinga >mocassina's shoes are not restricted to the Albanians.

The Serbs have them and call them opinak and we have them and call them opinec. Of course there are slight differences in the model and design, but all in all, it is the same thing we are talking about.

How much does that make the Albos a descendants of the Illyrians.

I would like to hear the Albanian ethimology of the word.

As for the "Slavic" it is most likely related to опне > to draw tight, to stretch, to tighten up, as related to napne > to make an effort.

So the opinga separates to opin <> opni and ga> go > it. Something you tighten up or draw tight to your foot.

Only Logical to me.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by makedonin

What do you think about this one:



As far as I know, this opinga >mocassina's shoes are not restricted to the Albanians.

The Serbs have them and call them opinak and we have them and call them opinec. Of course there are slight differences in the model and design, but all in all, it is the same thing we are talking about.

How much does that make the Albos a descendants of the Illyrians.

I would like to hear the Albanian ethimology of the word.

As for the "Slavic" it is most likely related to опне > to draw tight, to stretch, to tighten up, as related to napne > to make an effort.

So the opinga separates to opin <> opni and ga> go > it. Something you tighten up or draw tight to your foot.

Only Logical to me.

Opinga - Opinca (Opinci, pl.)

I remember hearing my father say 'ne se opinai nogu' - meaning "don't advance (approach in an uncontrolled manner) too much", it makes more sense in Macedonian.

What is the Illyrian word for it?

[makedonin]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Opinga - Opinca (Opinci, pl.)

I remember hearing my father say 'ne se opinai nogu' - meaning "don't advance (approach in an uncontrolled manner) too much", it makes more sense in Macedonian.

What is the Illyrian word for it?

опне is the Macedonian word. It has many meanings. One of it is your example of usage.

As for the Illyrian word, I still could not trace it. If I do, than I will post it here.

But opinga is in no case Albanian word, that is for sure. Just like Besa

The "Illyrians" though.