How the Ottomans influenced the Balkans

[Soldier of Macedon]

Mastika, Voltron, Onur, DHV and others - sorry fellas, in the process of making the transfer of posts an issue arose and we lost the previous 20 or so. Thankfully there was no in-depth information lost, but the discussions were good. Oh well, I guess we can use this thread now for that purpose.

Mastika, you may as well use this as a platform to explain (again) your position on Macedonian culture in the context of foreign (Ottoman and other) influences.

Voltron, feel free to state your reasons again on why you think the Balkans remained backwards and how that relates to the Turks as a people, as opposed to the Ottomans as a colonial power. One observation I made was the lack of 'progressive' countries that were formerly colonies of the 'more cultured' western Europeans, in response to your suggestion of former Ottoman colonies being 'backward'. I would say that colonialism and what it brings with it; discrimination, oppression and subjugation - is a large reason for the current predicament of the Balkans, Africa and South Asia, but they are not the sole reason for 'backwardness' in these regions. With regard to the Balkans, the literature which contributed to the emergence of the Renaissance in the West would not have been accepted by East Rome (had it still been free from the Ottomans) on a general scale. East Christian society was more conservative in nature, and it would not have been too receptive to influences stemming from western Europe.

[Voltron]

Mastika, Voltron, Onur, DHV and others - sorry fellas, in the process of making the transfer of posts an issue arose and we lost the previous 20 or so. Thankfully there was no in-depth information lost, but the discussions were good. Oh well, I guess we can use this thread now for that purpose.

Mastika, you may as well use this as a platform to explain (again) your position on Macedonian culture in the context of foreign (Ottoman and other) influences.

Voltron, feel free to state your reasons again on why you think the Balkans remained backwards and how that relates to the Turks as a people, as opposed to the Ottomans as a colonial power. One observation I made was the lack of 'progressive' countries that were formerly colonies of the 'more cultured' western Europeans, in response to your suggestion of former Ottoman colonies being 'backward'. I would say that colonialism and what it brings with it; discrimination, oppression and subjugation - is a large reason for the current predicament of the Balkans, Africa and South Asia, but they are not the sole reason for 'backwardness' in these regions. With regard to the Balkans, the literature which contributed to the emergence of the Renaissance in the West would not have been accepted by East Rome (had it still been free from the Ottomans) on a general scale. East Christian society was more conservative in nature, and it would not have been too receptive to influences stemming from western Europe.

I feel that the balkans had much more unity and enlightenment under Byzantine rule. I acknowledge that the Ottomans were in some ways better than the Crusaders that had sacked Constaninople but at the end of the day we have to look at the overall picture.

First off they brought Islam which IMO brought nothing but trouble and division in our region. It also not a european tradition. Islam splintered the population into different ethnicities and was often at the expense of native Christians. You can argue if the Catholics were any better but again I look at the overall picture that we have today. Christianity also has its roots in the ME, but to me does not matter since most of Europe adopted it as their own by the time Islam made its arrival.

Second, I believe it had brought upon us a culture of laziness and village mob mentality. Even today you can tell who a balkanite is from their mannerisms. A simple walk or a drive through a village and you will notice a hundred ppl giving you the staredown as if you came from Mars. Women locked up in the kitchen while the men are sipping their "cafe" at the town square with their buddies. Another example back in the day was men on donkeys or horses while the women have stacks of hay on their backs walking behind a distance of a few meters. That type of behavior that we crack jokes or laugh about. I dont think those mannerisms are native to us. Or just acting like flat out hillybillies.

I may be wrong and Il be happy to listen to other opinions, but I sincerely think that if the Ottomans never conquered our region would be on par with the rest of Europe. Ethnic Nationalism would also not be at the level we have it today, we would be more like the Italians or French who frankly dont really care about those issues.

[Risto the Great]

I may be wrong and Il be happy to listen to other opinions, but I sincerely think that if the Ottomans never conquered our region would be on par with the rest of Europe. Ethnic Nationalism would also not be at the level we have it today, we would be more like the Italians or French who frankly dont really care about those issues.

We were definitely missing out on the enlightenment period as a result of the Ottomans.

[Onur]

I am not here to defend Ottoman empire in any way since i don't like it either. It belongs to the history books for me and something to be proud of cuz i can say that my ancestors managed to rule in 3 different continents for 600+ years but never in hell i would like to return to that situation. God forbid, how come we would deal with all the Balkan drama, Libyan tribes and all other Arabic nonsense today?!!! So, i am quite happy with my nation state just as the 95% of Turkish people. Also, i don't wanna bother with trying to defend Ottoman empire to you but i wanna say few things about this;

First of all, Ottoman Empire and eastern world was much more advanced than western world b4 the enlightenment/reform era. Thats why it didn't happen in Ottoman territory cuz we didn't need to at that time.

Voltron`s anti-islamic nonsense is also irrelevant cuz during 500+ years of Turkish rule in Balkans, only few Pomaks, Torbesh and Bosnians became muslim and thats no more than 2-3% of all population in Balkans. For example, in recent 20 years, Wahabbis converted more christians to islam in Europe than ever happened in Ottoman era of 500+ years.

Voltron, you Greeks and other Balkanic people has this kind of manner cuz you are from Balkans. Thats your culture which has been created in this nature, weather, surroundings and in this atmosphere. You are not a western European or you are not like Japanese so, don't compare yourself with them. You will never be like them if you have been raised in Greece. You are not happy with it? So, go, live in some western European country and let your children to be assimilated in there and raise them as Germans, British etc. Your children can be like them in this way but you, yourself is hopeless if you got raised in Balkanic culture.


Besides that, do you guys really think you would be exist as how you are now if Ottoman empire never conquered Balkans, or exist at all??? During the rule of crusaders in Istanbul, they also took all the Aegean islands and managed to convert all of them as a base for catholicism and orthodoxy destroyed in these places `till Ottoman empire took all of them in 16th century. They also stole many eastern Roman monuments in that time and transported them to Rome, Italy. They also damaged Hagia Sophia and all other orthodox churches in Istanbul. So, what i am trying to say is; You orthodox people were heretics according to Pope, something to be crushed and destroyed. So, if there would be no Ottoman empire, then you all would be dead or forcibly convert to catholicism and then assimilated in Latin world. Then, there would be no orthodoxy today and you would share the fate of Arians, Bogomils.

Wanna proof? Just remember where was Ottoman empire`s Balkan border. It was Bosnia, Serbia at northwest and today`s Croatia was never belong to the Turks and it was always under western influence. So, do you think it`s a coincidence that Croats are catholics even tough they speak quite same language as their Serbian relatives, the champions of orthodoxy along with Greeks??? Also remember that before Paris conference of WW-1, b4 the creation of Yugoslavia, the names of most cities/towns of Croatia was either in Latin or Italian. Mostly, the rulers of Yugoslavia created today`s slavic topography of Croatia.


But the interesting thing is, the never-ending grudge of you against the Turks in general. Especially from Bulgars and Greeks. When i think about the current relations between USA and Japan after two atomic bombs, or France and Germany after the mass murder of millions of French in just a week at WW-2, it`s becoming weird, pointless and absurd since nothing happened between Turks and you on this scale, comparing to USA-Japan, France-Germany. So, the reason must be something else, like anti-Turkish stance of Greek church and education system full of lies and propaganda. Also, i gotta remind you that even if whole Balkans would hate from us, this wouldn't bother Turkey much, maybe except minor nuisance but on the other hand, this would harshly effect yourself. I mean, for example Greeks hate from us for a long time. What is the downside for the Turks? Literally nothing at all but as long as Greeks continue to do this, they will continue to be the dependent vassal of western powers. Think about whether Greece would be in economical crises now if Turkey&Greece would be in full cooperation in tourism, middle-eastern/mediterranean/caucasus energy corridors, military, economics??! So, it`s definitely not the Turks who would get hurt by that, it`s the Balkan states.

Another interesting fact is, the most vicious wars of Ottoman empire was against Hapsburgs and they mostly used Hungarians against us. In the end of these wars at 16th century, half of the Hungarian population has been dead but we have excellent relations with Hungary since 19th century. Their PM recently said that they are quite happy with the fact that Hungary has been occupied by Turks for 150 years because he said that Turks didn't force them to change their religion or didn't try to assimilate them. He said that if Hapsburgs or Rome would rule in Hungary by then, they would probably assimilated by now, and speaking German instead of their own language. So, thats the case with Hungarians even tough they suffered much more than any other Balkan people under Ottoman regime.

[George S.]

The problem is that they the greeks are so biased & don't want to admit to the truth.Now that turkey has put all that in the past & embraced the future ,macedonia can look with more positive confidence that we have a real friend in deed.Look at the harmonius relationships that are existing.Of course the turks have influenced the balkans
in all sorts of ways.But some people can't accept the cold hard truth.

[Voltron]

The problem is that they the greeks are so biased & don't want to admit to the truth.Now that turkey has put all that in the past & embraced the future ,macedonia can look with more positive confidence that we have a real friend in deed.Look at the harmonius relationships that are existing.Of course the turks have influenced the balkans
in all sorts of ways.But some people can't accept the cold hard truth.

How did they put that all in the past George ? Germany did my acknowledging the holocaust. Turkey to this day is in denial. Only when they man up to what has happened can they embrace the future.

Give me an example of how Turks have positivly influenced the Balkans aside from the introduction of coffee....

[Voltron]

I am not here to defend Ottoman empire in any way since i don't like it either. It belongs to the history books for me and something to be proud of cuz i can say that my ancestors managed to rule in 3 different continents for 600+ years but never in hell i would like to return to that situation. God forbid, how come we would deal with all the Balkan drama, Libyan tribes and all other Arabic nonsense today?!!! So, i am quite happy with my nation state just as the 95% of Turkish people. Also, i don't wanna bother with trying to defend Ottoman empire to you but i wanna say few things about this;

First of all, Ottoman Empire and eastern world was much more advanced than western world b4 the enlightenment/reform era. Thats why it didn't happen in Ottoman territory cuz we didn't need to at that time.

Voltron`s anti-islamic nonsense is also irrelevant cuz during 500+ years of Turkish rule in Balkans, only few Pomaks, Torbesh and Bosnians became muslim and thats no more than 2-3% of all population in Balkans. For example, in recent 20 years, Wahabbis converted more christians to islam in Europe than ever happened in Ottoman era of 500+ years.

Voltron, you Greeks and other Balkanic people has this kind of manner cuz you are from Balkans. Thats your culture which has been created in this nature, weather, surroundings and in this atmosphere. You are not a western European or you are not like Japanese so, don't compare yourself with them. You will never be like them if you have been raised in Greece. You are not happy with it? So, go, live in some western European country and let your children to be assimilated in there and raise them as Germans, British etc. Your children can be like them in this way but you, yourself is hopeless if you got raised in Balkanic culture.


Besides that, do you guys really think you would be exist as how you are now if Ottoman empire never conquered Balkans, or exist at all??? During the rule of crusaders in Istanbul, they also took all the Aegean islands and managed to convert all of them as a base for catholicism and orthodoxy destroyed in these places `till Ottoman empire took all of them in 16th century. They also stole many eastern Roman monuments in that time and transported them to Rome, Italy. They also damaged Hagia Sophia and all other orthodox churches in Istanbul. So, what i am trying to say is; You orthodox people were heretics according to Pope, something to be crushed and destroyed. So, if there would be no Ottoman empire, then you all would be dead or forcibly convert to catholicism and then assimilated in Latin world. Then, there would be no orthodoxy today and you would share the fate of Arians, Bogomils.

Wanna proof? Just remember where was Ottoman empire`s Balkan border. It was Bosnia, Serbia at northwest and today`s Croatia was never belong to the Turks and it was always under western influence. So, do you think it`s a coincidence that Croats are catholics even tough they speak quite same language as their Serbian relatives, the champions of orthodoxy along with Greeks??? Also remember that before Paris conference of WW-1, b4 the creation of Yugoslavia, the names of most cities/towns of Croatia was either in Latin or Italian. Mostly, the rulers of Yugoslavia created today`s slavic topography of Croatia.


But the interesting thing is, the never-ending grudge of you against the Turks in general. Especially from Bulgars and Greeks. When i think about the current relations between USA and Japan after two atomic bombs, or France and Germany after the mass murder of millions of French in just a week at WW-2, it`s becoming weird, pointless and absurd since nothing happened between Turks and you on this scale, comparing to USA-Japan, France-Germany. So, the reason must be something else, like anti-Turkish stance of Greek church and education system full of lies and propaganda. Also, i gotta remind you that even if whole Balkans would hate from us, this wouldn't bother Turkey much, maybe except minor nuisance but on the other hand, this would harshly effect yourself. I mean, for example Greeks hate from us for a long time. What is the downside for the Turks? Literally nothing at all but as long as Greeks continue to do this, they will continue to be the dependent vassal of western powers. Think about whether Greece would be in economical crises now if Turkey&Greece would be in full cooperation in tourism, middle-eastern/mediterranean/caucasus energy corridors, military, economics??! So, it`s definitely not the Turks who would get hurt by that, it`s the Balkan states.

Another interesting fact is, the most vicious wars of Ottoman empire was against Hapsburgs and they mostly used Hungarians against us. In the end of these wars at 16th century, half of the Hungarian population has been dead but we have excellent relations with Hungary since 19th century. Their PM recently said that they are quite happy with the fact that Hungary has been occupied by Turks for 150 years because he said that Turks didn't force them to change their religion or didn't try to assimilate them. He said that if Hapsburgs or Rome would rule in Hungary by then, they would probably assimilated by now, and speaking German instead of their own language. So, thats the case with Hungarians even tough they suffered much more than any other Balkan people under Ottoman regime.

I responded to you Onur then my post disappeared when I had to put logon details.

Il try again later on, it was a long one too...

[George S.]

voltron your missing the point the turks influenced macedonia in lot's of ways,culturaly,linguistically, etc and many other ways.As a nation it has acknowledged at least what it has done where you greeks deny what you have done.The other thing greece obstructs macedonia at every step but look at the turks they are so friendly to us that we can only prosper with friends like that.We have also been influenced by turkish music as well.Where has greece acknowledged the attrocities on macedonians they can't even admit to the existence of macedonians let alone to move on.if greece admits to the truth they have to give everything back & that it doesn't belong to them that's how critical it is.Greece forcefully assimilated & brutalised the macedonian population it forbade them speaking in macedonian & changed their names.That is a disgusting way to treat people.The turks didn't do that & deny their ethnicity.Greece went all the way to destroy the macedonian nation.

[Voltron]

George you ever hear of the phrase " Careful of Greeks bearing gifts " ?
Same thing here, nothing is done out of kindness. They are using this political dispute between us to gain leverage in Macedonia and expand their influence in the region.

We do not have bad relations with Turks either. We are very friendly towards each other and have a lot of things in common as well. The only issue is their foreign policy and the way they use it. Just like you say we dont acknowledge our crimes, they do not acknowledge theirs. I dont hate them, on the contrary I have many friends that are Turks and I have been there many times. Most of the arguments in here is due to politics, not about the people. That said, I still dont think the Ottoman influence was a good one.

[George S.]

I only know it too well remember the trojan war & the wooden horse?The greek govt is avoiding the economic woes & pursuing it's nationalist agenda.Also they are accusing macedonias of irrendist claims but they forgot to accuse themselves.Macedonia is in no shape to be an irrendist country.They know they can't turn back the clock or change borders.Which leaves greece which is a troublemaker in the region they want this they want that,you can't have that etc.So it's constantly interfeering in the affairs of macedonia.Whereas look at the way the turks are treating macedonia with open arms in contrast.So we agree the turks have influenced us for the good.

[Onur]

SOM, i gotta tell you something too. Yes, technically Ottoman empire was a colonial power in Balkans but we were never like the British in India, or French in Tunisia, Algeria. You should consider that western powers stayed in their colonies only for leeching their energy resources. For example, only the British government officers gone to India or only few French people gone to Tunisia but on the other hand, Ottoman empire never treated Balkans in that manner. Especially Macedonia(incl. Aegean side) and Bulgaria was home to us for 600+ years. Don't forget that before 1877, about half of people in Bulgaria was Turks and before 1912, it was same for Macedonia. Just compare it with Australia. British people colonized it only about 200 years ago and tell me if Australia is currently a homeland for western people or not? If yes, then think about Turks in 600+ year old Ottoman Macedonia.

Also, this never ending Ottoman dilemma is perfect example for selective and biased thinking. Ottoman empire is no more for a century ago but the anti-Turkish grudge is still very much alive in Balkans. For example, Italians and Germans invaded Greece 60 years ago, Bulgarians invaded Macedonia too but who remembers these events now? People remembers those as much as Ottoman era? Or, Germans killed millions of French in just a month 60 years ago. Tell me whether French people holds same level of grudge today against Germans as Greeks holds to the Turks. Even Jews doesn't have this level of grudge against Germans, ffs!!! Isn't that weird? Actually, i know the reason of why anti-Turkish stance never goes away in there. It`s because some powerful people in the west never wanna see friendship in these lands cuz they are gaining power because of that hate.

.Now that turkey has put all that in the past & embraced the future ,macedonia can look with more positive confidence that we have a real friend in deed.Look at the harmonius relationships that are existing.

Thats the truth. Do you think we didn't have enough stories to indoctrinate 80 million people in Turkey to hate from every country in Balkans? Ofc we have too. We could write down Greek invasion of Anatolia, killings of 100.000s in Bulgaria in 1877, mass exodus of people from Macedonia in 1912 in to the school books and raise 80 million people with only hate, just like Greeks does. We could, but Turkey didn't do that.

George you ever hear of the phrase " Careful of Greeks bearing gifts " ?
Same thing here, nothing is done out of kindness. They are using this political dispute between us to gain leverage in Macedonia and expand their influence in the region.

Thats B.S. Greece still invests 10x more money than Turkey in ROM also i`ve never saw people say or even think like "Macedonia is Turkish" in Turkey. But you Greeks does that for more than a century. Your country`s stance vs ROM is known by everyone in the world. Even the sectors which you have spent money in ROM reveals the truth of who has secret agenda for Macedonia. Greece bought finance companies and banks in ROM to control the country economically but Turkey invests for mainly public sectors like hospitals, production of goods/factories, airport and other constructions to serve people of Macedonia and create jobs for them.

Besides that, just tell me, what Macedonia`s friendship basically bring to Turkey? or any other Balkan country`s friendship to us?

You gotta accept these facts;
Turkey has 80 million young population with enough number of highly educated people. We have agriculture, industry, military, tourism etc. by being 15th biggest economy in the world, 5th in EU and we will probably continue to raise. We are living in one of best geographical position in the world, if not the best. So, Turkey doesn't need any country`s goodwill from Balkans, especially not from bankrupt Greece. Besides that, your grudge cant hurt us. Tell me whether Greece could hurt us so far with your pathetic policy towards us? What i am trying to say here is; You can only hurt yourself by hating from us but Greek, Bulgar, Serbian hate doesn't mean jack shit for us except being something to pity and laugh.

P.S:I know, i`m sounding like a prig but i had to remind these things to this Greek guy!

[Soldier of Macedon]

You should consider that western powers stayed in their colonies only for leeching their energy resources.

Onur, the Ottomans were leeching in the Balkans too mate, they came to someone else's home, turned them into second-class citizens because of their religion, denied them the right of bearing arms, excluded them from prosperity, took their wealth, abused their position, etc. This is well documented.

For example, only the British government officers gone to India or only few French people gone to Tunisia but on the other hand, Ottoman empire never treated Balkans in that manner.

That is one difference I suppose, but not in all places (take South Africa as an example, where there were colonialist settlements). By most comparisons, the Balkan Christians were in a state of apartheid. Sure, the Ottomans may have interacted with the Christians on a higher level which can be considered as 'living together', but that doesn't change the facts I cited above.

Don't forget that before 1877, about half of people in Bulgaria was Turks and before 1912, it was same for Macedonia.

The reason why there was an increase of Turks or Turkic peoples during the 19th century was due to an influx of refugees from the regions that the Ottomans had lost to the Russians. It would be naive to think that Turks constituted half of Macedonia's population consistently from the 14th century onwards.

British people colonized it only about 200 years ago and tell me if Australia is currently a homeland for western people or not? If yes, then think about Turks in 600+ year old Ottoman Macedonia.

That's a good point, but that doesn't make either of their actions 'right'. In any case, I wouldn't deny Turks the right to call Macedonia home.

Ottoman empire is no more for a century ago but the anti-Turkish grudge is still very much alive in Balkans.

In some elements of Balkan society, yes, but we are talking about 500+ years of rule in the region, from the end of the medieval period to the beginning of the modern period, we were under foreign Ottoman subjugation. It is unreasonable to expect this whole period to be forgotten, as it has had a significant impact on all Balkan peoples.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Also, this never ending Ottoman dilemma is perfect example for selective and biased thinking. Ottoman empire is no more for a century ago but the anti-Turkish grudge is still very much alive in Balkans. For example, Italians and Germans invaded Greece 60 years ago, Bulgarians invaded Macedonia too but who remembers these events now? People remembers those as much as Ottoman era? Or, Germans killed millions of French in just a month 60 years ago. Tell me whether French people holds same level of grudge today against Germans as Greeks holds to the Turks. Even Jews doesn't have this level of grudge against Germans, ffs!!! Isn't that weird? Actually, i know the reason of why anti-Turkish stance never goes away in there. It`s because some powerful people in the west never wanna see friendship in these lands cuz they are gaining power because of that hate.

Onur, why do you choose to ignore this basic simple fact. Germany was condemned. Nazi's were persecuted and put to death. The Mossad are still hunting them down if they are still alive that is. They have no qualms in putting to death a 95 yr old Nazi if they find one just for the sake of it. Turkey flat out denies it did anything wrong. Why cant you see the difference. How can we move forward if Turkey doesnt even publicly issue an apology ?

Thats the truth. Do you think we didn't have enough stories to indoctrinate 80 million people in Turkey to hate from every country in Balkans? Ofc we have too. We could write down Greek invasion of Anatolia, killings of 100.000s in Bulgaria in 1877, mass exodus of people from Macedonia in 1912 in to the school books and raise 80 million people with only hate, just like Greeks does. We could, but Turkey didn't do that.

The Greek "invasion" can be seen as what happened to Macedonians. Greeks and Macedonians both lost their ancestral homelands. It was a ripple effect that happened throughout the balkans with Turkey being the rock hitting the water. It clearly came out of this unscathed.

Thats B.S. Greece still invests 10x more money than Turkey in ROM also i`ve never saw people say or even think like "Macedonia is Turkish" in Turkey. But you Greeks does that for more than a century. Your country`s stance vs ROM is known by everyone in the world.

Yes, we invest and over a thousand Greeks cross the border everday to go to Bitola for example. However politically we are non-existant.

Besides that, just tell me, what Macedonia`s friendship basically bring to Turkey? or any other Balkan country`s friendship to us?

You kidding, Read Davatoglou Neo-Ottoman vision he has for Turkey.

You gotta accept these facts;
Turkey has 80 million young population with enough number of highly educated people. We have agriculture, industry, military, tourism etc. by being 15th biggest economy in the world, 5th in EU and we will probably continue to raise. We are living in one of best geographical position in the world, if not the best. So, Turkey doesn't need any country`s goodwill from Balkans, especially not from bankrupt Greece. Besides that, your grudge cant hurt us. Tell me whether Greece could hurt us so far with your pathetic policy towards us? What i am trying to say here is; You can only hurt yourself by hating from us but Greek, Bulgar, Serbian hate doesn't mean jack shit for us except being something to pity and laugh.

There is no hate Onur. We are discussing politics. Dont confuse the two.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Turkey flat out denies it did anything wrong. Why cant you see the difference. How can we move forward if Turkey doesnt even publicly issue an apology ?

Greece also denies the wrong it has done to Macedonians. You can see this, right? How can we move forward if Greece doesn't even issue an acknowledgement of facts let alone an apology? Probably not the right thread for this discussion, but the parallel can't be escaped from notice.

[Voltron]

Greece also denies the wrong it has done to Macedonians. You can see this, right? How can we move forward if Greece doesn't even issue an acknowledgement of facts let alone an apology? Probably not the right thread for this discussion, but the parallel can't be escaped from notice.

Yes, its similar. But there is still a Macedonian presence in Greece while we are all but non-existant in Turkey.