Macedonian Nationalism

[iskra]

I agree SoM that there is no need to fear the "S" word or any other words like Thracian or Illyrian or Roman etc. These words are common in Balkan history and in order to work out their meaning, you need to use them. Greece has plenty of "Slavs" in its history, so any examination of the so called "Slav" thesis, does not help them one bit. There is no question of essentialising here, it is merely an effort to discover the meaning of words used at various points in the past. That is a very important part of what history is about.

TM, you started an interesting discussion here and its good to see that most people have reacted maturely. The discussion has opened up numerous interesting and mostly unanswered questions, so it might now be time to just go back to pursuing all the issues that have emerged from this topic, under individual headings in the history section of MTO.

[aleksandrov]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

That's fine Aleksandrov. So far everyone else has been answering this topic.

Yes, some posters have indeed answered your questions by posting facts and theories that have been presented and discussed on this and various other internet forums in the past. Unfortunately, your predisposition seems such that you are unlikely to digest that material any better this time around than you have upon previous opportunities. You seem to be crippled by a stubborn committment to a vague anti-theory for which you have hardly provided anything that can be considered direct evidence, and in relation to which you have persistently evaded basic questions and logical criticisms.

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Bratot, you made this comment shortly after your reply to myself. Do you consider me one of these people who has fallen 'deep into the nationalist trap'? I certainly don't.
Furthermore, I don't think there should be any shame (or relevant comparison with some of our delusional neighbours) when researching our older history. I am not doing this to validate myself and heritage, I know what I am, but as with many others here, I have an interest in our origins, and that is nothing to shy away from.

I wasn't pointing to you SoM, but I'm not the only one witnessing such trend where some of us have lost the sanity and propagate some "Aryian" racial theories and blood/gene purity.

I think it produce more negative effect than possitive, I wouldn't like to see some 'supremacism' claims from my people.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bratot, I would also be against any such views that support 'extremist' theories regarding racial purity. Even if we calculate it over 2,500 years (on a generous average of 25 years per person before the next is born) it is still a 100 generations. The possibility of being 'pure blooded' in the sense that there are only Macedonian ancestors in one's history is slim, different however, is the probability of many Macedonians having mostly (instead of only) Macedonian ancestors. It is a discussion that would be extremely interesting if we can get past the 'perceptions' and move on to constructive progress on the matter.

[Bratot]

I'm glad we are on same frequency.

It is logically to expect most of our genetical matherial to be the native, but lets not get into debate of % fit a requirement as a condition if someone may or may not be admitted to identify himself as "indigenous" Macedonian equally enough because of some absurdal gene proportions that need to be fulfilled for that purpose.

Don't get absorbed in the Greek chauvinistic idiocity and from potential 'proving' who is the more rightful 'genetical' descedant of the Macedonians, if SoM is only half eligible or TM is 2/3 and I'M 10% eligible Macedonian in order to identify ourself as all equally Macedonians.

[TrueMacedonian]

Originally Posted by aleksandrov

Yes, some posters have indeed answered your questions by posting facts and theories that have been presented and discussed on this and various other internet forums in the past. Unfortunately, your predisposition seems such that you are unlikely to digest that material any better this time around than you have upon previous opportunities. You seem to be crippled by a stubborn committment to a vague anti-theory for which you have hardly provided anything that can be considered direct evidence, and in relation to which you have persistently evaded basic questions and logical criticisms.

You still posting here?

[TrueMacedonian]

SoM said;

TM, can you cite the quotation from Theophilactus? Does he indicate where these 'Slavs' brought the instruments from? Where they came from? Or that they just 'carried' it with them during their travels, incursions and rebellions?

Here it is SoM;

the Sklavini who were brought before the Roman Emperor.

they were not equipped with any weapons or military equipment, their only burdens were citars and they had nothing else with them....they said that they were from the tribe of the Sklavini , and they had their homes on the shores of the western Ocean, and the Avar khan had sent embassies to them with rich gifts for their leaders in order to attract armed men to his army.

Barford doesn't believe anything from this account is true.

SoM here's something I found, what are your thoughts on this;

The Slavonians, we have said, are an aboriginal European branch of the great Scythian race. Their specific name among the Greeks was 'Everoi, of which the Latin translation was Venetce; their western neighbours, the Germans, called them Wcndtn ; by the northern Scandinavians they were called the Vanar; the name by which they called themselves was Serbi or Sirbi. The name Slavonians, which has superseded all these, is of comparatively recent origin, and is derived either from the native word slava, meaning "glory," or from the native word slovo, meaning " speech." The original territories of these Venetae, Wenden, Serbi, or Slavonians, were very extensive ; Ptolemy (a.d. 140) speaks of them as an cdvoj /xEyitfrov, and Procopius (a.d. 550) calls them a natio papulosa dwelling per immensa spatia. The ancient Thracians, it is now concluded, were a Slavonic people, probably with Pelasgic intermixture ; the Dacians, the Mcesians, and other populations living north of the Thracians, and ultimately included with them in the Roman empire, were still more certainly of the Slavonic stock ; and the Veneti of the Adriatic, an aboriginal Italian nation finally conquered by Cresar, were, as the name implies, an extreme western outpost of the same great race. The chief seat of the Slavonians, however, was to the north of the Black Sea and the Carpathian mountains, and between the Baltic and the Volga. It is even likely that then, as now, their northern offshoots reached to the Icy Seas. Spreading over so vast an extent of territory, they must then, as now, have been by far the most numerous of the European races. At present the Germans of Europe are estimated at thirty-five millions, and the Slavonians at eighty millions ; and it is considered probable that their original proportions were nearly the same.......As among the Hindoos, it was the custom of their widows to burn themselves on the same pile with their deceased husbands; and altogether their women held an inferior position to that assigned to women among the Germans. They were fond of music ; and their national instrument was the gusla, a kind of cithara or guitar with only one string, played with a bow, and accompanying the voice, still the popular instrument in all Slavonic countries.

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA2...acians&f=false page 285

This account was written in 1849.

Ovid makes mention of a "Thracian Lyre" which is supposedly introduced by Orpheus.

Now the question is how far spread was music and musical instruments during antiquity? Could it be that the Sklavini tribe may have been playing these Illyro/Thracian music prior to their so-called 'migration'? And how long has this sort of music existed in Macedonia? Is there anyway for us to determine what exactly was carried from antiquity to today regarding this sub-topic?

[aleksandrov]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

You still posting here?

Your evasive comebacks keep getting better.

[TrueMacedonian]

Originally Posted by aleksandrov

Your evasive comebacks keep getting better.

I didn't know I was evading you or trying to make a 'comeback'. Chill out Aleksandrov. I'm not trying to mess with you. Let's just leave it as is.

[aleksandrov]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

I didn't know I was evading you or trying to make a 'comeback'. Chill out Aleksandrov. I'm not trying to mess with you. Let's just leave it as is.

For me, your questioning of the existence of an indigenous Macedonian ethnicity is just as serious as any Greek/Grkoman, Bulgarian/Bulgaroman, Serb/Serboman or "Slav" questioning the existence of an autochthonous Macedonian ethnicity prior to WWII. I see no substantive difference. And you have provided no better basis for your position than they do.