Bulgars in Macedonia (1919 NY Times article)

[TrueMacedonian]

if this page is hard to read then click here - http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...B3668382609EDE

The following is interesting to me;

These villages are inhabited by people of Greek, Turkish, Armenian, Bulgarian, and Serbian origin as well as the native Macedonian.

[osiris]

its typical of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing true mak. what village had greeks bulgarians and serbs living together with native macedonians. turks albanians vlachs yes but grkos etc i cant think of one.

[Serdarot]

dude, the "Bulgars" / "Bulgarians" i prefer to take /concider with the questions

- who use it
- dating of the writing(s) / Statement / artefact
- about what period is "talking" the author or "artefact"
- what level of knowledge about the Macedonian, Balkan and World History he has, if we talk about authors, writings, statements and similar
- what interest he has / to which "option" he belongs
- what were the geo-political conditions at the time we talk about
- etc, etc, etc

example:

- Jasno e deka na primer vo eden period bil koristen za site etnikumi vo ramkite na Otomanskata Imperija koi bile pod Bugarskata Crkva
- vo drug period za onie koi ne zboruvale "Romeika" / nekoja verzija na Koine
- pripadnici / ziteli na tema / administrativna oblast Bulgaria / Bugaria
- kako etnicki izraz se MOZEBI se koristel za "pravite" Bīlgari, onie na Asparuh, Omurtag i drugite Kanovi
- i za pripadnicite na deneshnata Bugarska nacija.

- it is a fact that also the serbs and other were called bulgars / bulgarians in some period, and other examples, so it is for me logic to concider that term like i mentioned above
- it lost itīs ethnic meaning (if ever had one :P)

and probably was used , beside "barbaroi" / "varvaroi" , as "boulgaroi" / "voulgaroi" (vulgari), or some similar form, even before the Bīlgar khAGGAns ever heard about Macedonia

so in many population"lists" (cenzuses, books, reports, etc) of the Macedonian places ethnic Macedonians are from diverse reasons named by some other term.


p.s.

I personaly dont think many bulgarians ever lived in Macedonia

edit:

here some more natives




edit 2:

the same case is with the term "Turks" and "Serb" and "Greek".

from the mentioned people, probably:

- part from the "turks" were muslim Macedonians
- part from the "greeks" were Macedonians under greek church / education system / political (and small cultural) influence.
- part from the "serbs" were Macedonians under serbian influence

[TrueMacedonian]

Good observation Serdarot. What you described is all true and I think you should re-post this post into this topic - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...read.php?t=835

[Onur]

- it is a fact that also the serbs and other were called bulgars / bulgarians in some period, and other examples, so it is for me logic to concider that term like i mentioned above
- it lost itīs ethnic meaning (if ever had one :P)

and probably was used , beside "barbaroi" / "varvaroi" , as "boulgaroi" / "voulgaroi" (vulgari), or some similar form, even before the Bīlgar khAGGAns ever heard about Macedonia

The word "Bulgar" is Turkish as partly stated in newspaper article, means "mix, mixed" which signifies the group of people who "mixed" with other people from different ethnicity, culture, religion. There are historical records of a certain Turkish population who are mixed with all other local people after they migrated into eastern Europe. In historical records, other Turkish people calls them as "Bulgars" because they lost their Turkic language/culture and mixed with other people like Slavs. So the term "Bulgars" represents a group of mixed people rather than an ethnicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

[Onur]

its typical of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing true mak. what village had greeks bulgarians and serbs living together with native macedonians. turks albanians vlachs yes but grkos etc i cant think of one.

At ottoman times, all people in Balkans was living together. At least i know there was Turks at Crete to current Serbia, Albanians at Athens to Skopje and Anatolia. Also macedonians in whole Greece of today.

Ofc there was Macedon, Turkish or Albanian populated villages side by side but everyone was going to big cities to buy/sell some stuff and cities consisted of everyone in Balkans living together. For example, at Ottoman Thessaloniki, there was 3 main spoken languages in city, Ladino language of Jews, "Rum" aka ancient Greek and Turkish.

[Bill77]

The word "Bulgar" is Turkish as partly stated in newspaper article, means "mix, mixed" which signifies the group of people who "mixed" with other people from different ethnicity, culture, religion. There are historical records of a certain Turkish population who are mixed with all other local people after they migrated into eastern Europe. In historical records, other Turkish people calls them as "Bulgars" because they lost their Turkic language/culture and mixed with other people like Slavs. So the term "Bulgars" represents a group of mixed people rather than an ethnicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

This is very interesting. It makes alot of sence. During the Ottoman period, Macedonia had many diferant ethnic inhabitants especialy in the sth.

To name all the inhabitants such as Turks, Greeks, etc etc as Macedonian just because they resided there, would have been incorect back then. Not only because ethnicly they were not Macedonian, But the Land belonged to The Ottoman empire, and kind of like Greece pryor to ROM independance, the Turks did not want to recognise Macedonia in a geographical sence for fear of future uprising or independance.

Hmmm very plausible. But would need more evidance i think. Thanks for sharing.

At ottoman times, all people in Balkans was living together. At least i know there was Turks at Crete to current Serbia, Albanians at Athens to Skopje and Anatolia. Also macedonians in whole Greece of today.

Ofc there was Macedon, Turkish or Albanian populated villages side by side but everyone was going to big cities to buy/sell some stuff and cities consisted of everyone in Balkans living together. For example, at Ottoman Thessaloniki, there was 3 main spoken languages in city, Ladino language of Jews, "Rum" aka ancient Greek and Turkish.

I would change that to 4 there is plenty of evidance that Macedonian was largely spoken. Its possible that "Rum" aka ancient Greek would have been spoken, but i would not put it as a main spoken language.

[Onur]

To name all the inhabitants such as Turks, Greeks, etc etc as Macedonian just because they resided there, would have been incorect back then. Not only because ethnicly they were not Macedonian, But the Land belonged to The Ottoman empire, and kind of like Greece pryor to ROM independance, the Turks did not want to recognise Macedonia in a geographical sence for fear of future uprising or independance.

After French revolution at 1789, Ottoman empire simply refused to recognize any ethnicity in the name of preserving the land and prevent any rebellion and called everyone as ottoman citizen.

I would change that to 4 there is plenty of evidance that Macedonian was largely spoken. Its possible that "Rum" aka ancient Greek would have been spoken, but i would not put it as a main spoken language.

Ofc Macedonian was widely spoken at western Thrace as well but in my message, i was only talking about the situation in the city of Thessaloniki.

Also 1 more thing. At ottoman times, Turks never spoke about ethnicity publicly but in government archives, its all written, about who lives where and whats the major languages etc. and in these archives, there are reports mentions from north of Thessaloniki to Skopje as "Macedonia" dated as early as 18th century, maybe even earlier reports too, in ottoman archives.

[Bill77]

in government archives, its all written, about who lives where and whats the major languages etc. and in these archives, there are reports mentions from north of Thessaloniki to Skopje as "Macedonia" dated as early as 18th century, maybe even earlier reports too, in ottoman archives.

Well thats fantastic Friend. The truth is out there and we are all about proving it. Would be nice to find some of these archives just to add to the millions we already have.

Cheers


Just when you have time, please share your feelings as a Turk, what it means to becoming a member of the EU.
And would you do anything to enter this club?

[Soldier of Macedon]

At ottoman times, Turks never spoke about ethnicity publicly but in government archives, its all written, about who lives where and whats the major languages etc. and in these archives, there are reports mentions from north of Thessaloniki to Skopje as "Macedonia" dated as early as 18th century, maybe even earlier reports too, in ottoman archives.

Onur, how do you access these archives? Do you have any contacts in Turkey that run research for you at government institutions where these archives are held? Are you able to find out what we need to do to make that happen?

There are many answers that can be obtained from the Ottoman records, it is a resource that has not been effectively tapped into yet by the Macedonians and it would be great if we could get some initiative happening here.

[Serdarot]

The word "Bulgar" is Turkish as partly stated in newspaper article, means "mix, mixed" which signifies the group of people who "mixed" with other people from different ethnicity, culture, religion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

Bīl = Bel, White
Gar = Crn, Black

very logic

suporting my theory that the macedonian termi "grci" might describe them as "gar-ci" , those who had dark skin, dark skinned, darker than we

[Serdarot]

btw, kardas, without any "chouvinist" ideas from my side, i think that in the Turkish language there are many "macedon" / "slavic" words (words of the dialects spoken in Macedonian, Thracia, Anadolia)

for example, even for the traditional Turkish Tee, you use

Samo-Var

[Onur]

btw, kardas, without any "chouvinist" ideas from my side, i think that in the Turkish language there are many "macedon" / "slavic" words (words of the dialects spoken in Macedonian, Thracia, Anadolia)

for example, even for the traditional Turkish Tee, you use

Samo-Var

Yes "Kardas"(brother), you are right

Yes we got some slavic words in Turkish and I know there are some Turkish words in every language at Balkan countries and its totally normal, since we all lived so close to each other for like 550 years, so its perfectly normal to share some words, habits and culture in general between us


P.S : btw, the word "Balkan" is Turkish as well

[Onur]

Onur, how do you access these archives? Do you have any contacts in Turkey that run research for you at government institutions where these archives are held? Are you able to find out what we need to do to make that happen?

There are many answers that can be obtained from the Ottoman records, it is a resource that has not been effectively tapped into yet by the Macedonians and it would be great if we could get some initiative happening here.

Most ottoman and republic of Turkey archives are open to the public for all kind of research. All original archival documents are being hold at Ankara, capital of Turkey.

Problem is, Ottoman archive is probably one of biggest in the world which contains documents between the year 1300s to 1923 and all those documents has been written with some kind of special Turkish with certain codes, ciphers and definitions which never or rarely used by regular Turkish language speakers.

But there are 100s of experts who works with millions of governments archive documents to de-code and translate them to modern Turkish and digitize the paper documents.



I think around %55 of Ottoman documents has been decoded and digitally recorded atm. You can find them at the web site "http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr".

Direct link to "online archive catalog search";
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/katalog/

You can register to the web site for free and use the simple search box to scan document headlines. You can note down the code number of the document you want and request from authorities to send you the scanned copy of the original documents. There are english version of the "Online catalog" too but problem is you need to know Turkish to be able to search and read the document headlines.

For the remaining %45 of the Ottoman archives, you need to come to Turkey personally and request documents by hand. You also need an expert on Turkish language and government archival writing style to be able to read them.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for the information, I will look into it. I have a copy of Evliya Celebi's book of travels, where the texts are displayed in the original Ottoman Turkish with Arabic script, Ottoman Turkish transliterated with modern Turkish script, and an English translation. Several Turks found the texts very difficult to understand, so the necessity of Turkish language experts is to be expected.