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Old 11-22-2010, 02:29 AM   #1
Risto the Great
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Default The Sincerity of Turkey's Democracy?

http://www.neurope.eu/articles/103717.php

The Case of the Indigenous Aramean (Syriac) People
Quote:
From the outside, today’s Turkey appears as if it differs markedly from yesterday’s Turkey. However, one should always bear in mind that not everything that shines is gold. As a result of the decision made in December 2004 by the European Union (EU) to start the accession negotiations with Turkey, the recent years have witnessed a series of widely acclaimed reform packages and constitutional amendments in this ever more de-Christianized, Islamified state.

Despite these developments, most experts agree that Turkey still has a long way to go in order to achieve “stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights, respect for and protection of minorities.” In the case of the Aramean people, this part of the Copenhagen criteria, which form the basis in the negotiation process with candidate countries since 1993, exposes Turkey’s apparent lack of commitment to Europe’s values.

1. The Aramean (Syriac) People of Turkey
Most politicians, journalists, writers and activists are not familiar with the Aramean people and their historical presence in Southeast Turkey. Briefly, five facts are worth stressing:

1.1 Indigenous: Contrary to the Turks and the Kurds, who as latecomers are foreign to Southeast Turkey, the Arameans and their Aramaic language are indigenous to this countryside, as corroborated by written evidence dating back to the 12th century B.C.

1.2 People: Rather than a religious community, the Arameans are a people or stateless nation, and this is how their vast majority increasingly perceive and call themselves. In Turkey, the ethno-religious Arameans historically consist of the Syriac (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant), Chaldean and Nestorian (or: ‘Assyrian’) communities.

1.3 Name: The Syriac Orthodox Patriarch aptly wrote about the synonymy of their names: “The Syriac language is the Aramaic language itself, and the Arameans are the Syrians themselves. He who has made a distinction between them has erred.” There exists an academic consensus on this issue, as there also is one that states that ‘Assyrian’ is a historically unfounded and politicized name that was invented in the 19th century.

1.4 Diaspora: As a result of systematic ethnic cleansing, land theft, persecutions and discrimination by the Turkish State, often with the help of Kurdish auxiliaries, the Arameans fled from their homeland. Today some 25,000 Arameans reside in Turkey, among whom circa 2,500 souls have remained in Southeast Turkey. The number of Aramean Europeans substantially exceeds the number of Arameans in this region.

1.5 Leadership: In the diaspora, particularly in Europe, the Arameans have tasted the delights of true democracy, freedom and equal citizenship. In the secularized and free West, secular organizations emerged in addition to the churches and monasteries aiming at organizing, defending and representing the Aramean people and their rights.

2. The Aramean Question in Turkey
The Aramean Question in Turkey consists of past and present cases of many human rights violations which have never been addressed by Turkey or the international community. Due to limited space, only four sub-questions will be mentioned. Rather than elaborating them, as experts have done many times before, it has been decided to ask Turkey reasonable questions which represent the voice and the desire of the Aramean people. It is hoped that this will initiate an official dialogue with the Turkish Government, conceivably coordinated by the EU.

2.1 Lack of Recognition & Legal Status
1. What is Turkey’s position on recognizing the Arameans as a ‘minority’, in conformity with international law and the Lausanne Treaty from 1923, much like the Greeks, Armenians and Jews, so that they are allowed to establish their own schools, teach their Aramaic language and freely practice their Christian faith?

2. What is Turkey’s view on recognizing the Arameans as an ‘indigenous people’, in keeping with the UN Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples signed by Turkey in 2007 and explicitly stated in Resolution 1704 of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe?

2.2 Illegal Land Occupation
3. What is Turkey’s stance towards the continuation of the illegal expropriation by the State of huge amounts of land historically and legally belonging to the Arameans, as affirmed by the European Union and the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe?
4. When will Turkey end the delays of court cases, noted by the European Court of Human Rights Annual Report 2009, that Aramean monasteries, villages and proprietors are facing?

2.3 Endangered Aramaic Cultural Heritage
5. Is the Turkish Government willing to take any responsibility in restoring, safeguarding, developing and promoting the endangered Aramaic cultural heritage of Southeast Turkey?

6. Is the Turkish Government prepared to assist and facilitate the Arameans who originate from Turkey in preserving their threatened language, culture and identity?

2.4 Return Migration: The Future of Tur-Abdin
7. Is Turkey ready to invest structurally in its south-eastern terrain, above all in improving the security, infrastructure and facilities for normal life circumstances there that may draw Aramean refugees back to the land of their ancestors?

8. Can Turkey ensure that the Tur-Abdin region in Southeast Turkey remains populated by its original Aramean inhabitants in the next decades, if not centuries?

3. The ball is in Turkey’s court
The Arameans have an ancient history in Turkey and are one of the oldest Christian peoples in the world. Despite genocide, mistreatment and discrimination, they have always remained loyal and peaceful citizens. Noting that the Christian Arameans have fled from their homeland and in the past decades have frequently expressed the desire to be officially recognized by the Turkish Government as a ‘minority’, according to the Lausanne Treaty, in order to obtain a legal status so that they can start building up a future in their ancestral land, Turkey can now demonstrate how sincere its commitments to the values and principles of the EU truly are.

The Arameans, above all, ask for equal citizenship, based on a new constitution that meets the standards of the EU and which laws will effectively be implemented. They strive for the recognition of their people and historic presence in Southeast Turkey. They ask not to be treated as foreigners or as a fifth-column by Turkish society, led by the mainstream media and biased textbooks. In fact, Turkey should embrace and integrate the native Arameans as an ambitious people who can enrich it culturally, intellectually, spiritually and economically. With their experience in the Western diaspora, the Arameans may even become beneficial to Turkey in assisting Turkish society in the continuing process of democratization.

Between the seventh and tenth centuries A.D., the Arameans brought the Mesopotamian and Greek sciences to the Arabs who later exported this knowledge to Europe. Perhaps with their Christian background and as a people that has integrated most successfully in European countries, the Arameans may once again form a bridge between two civilizations, this time between Turkey and the EU. In any case, the ball of democratization is in Turkey’s court.


Johny Messo is President of the Syriac Universal Alliance
Onur, I suspect you will have a go at this.
Is there anything you can tell us about these people?

I note the "UN Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples" is absolutely useless to Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria.
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Old 11-22-2010, 02:53 AM   #2
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Quote:
respect for and protection of minorities.” In the case of the Aramean people, this part of the Copenhagen criteria, which form the basis in the negotiation process with candidate countries since 1993, exposes Turkey’s apparent lack of commitment to Europe’s values.
So greece and bulgaria have better protection for minorities? why can't they just say it out loud that "we don't want Islamic countries in Europe". I think Muslims should start protesting in France, Germany UK etc and start rioting so Turkey gets in.

Quote:
1.1 Indigenous: Contrary to the Turks and the Kurds, who as latecomers are foreign to Southeast Turkey, the Arameans and their Aramaic language are indigenous to this countryside, as corroborated by written evidence dating back to the 12th century B.C.

1.4 Diaspora: As a result of systematic ethnic cleansing, land theft, persecutions and discrimination by the Turkish State, often with the help of Kurdish auxiliaries, the Arameans fled from their homeland. Today some 25,000 Arameans reside in Turkey, among whom circa 2,500 souls have remained in Southeast Turkey. The number of Aramean Europeans substantially exceeds the number of Arameans in this region.
EU doesn't give 1 sh1t about indigenous populations. Honestly Turkey should turn their back on EU and establish Turkish laws and Turkey for the Turks.
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Old 11-22-2010, 03:28 AM   #3
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how about the islamised people who number 600,000 to 1 million & who are macedonian what's happened to them.(due to wars they were displaced or population exchanges.??)
Yes it's true that turkey has embraced a true democracy& macedonia is fortunate to have an allie like that.

Last edited by George S.; 11-22-2010 at 04:25 AM. Reason: ed
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:04 AM   #4
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Ironic that Europe gives Turkey a hard time for its Aboriginal peoples, yet we only have to look at what Spain and France are doing to the Basques, or the rough time the sami/Laplanders had in Scandinavia

And then there is Europe’s little colonial period in South America, Africa and Australia, but don’t remind them that
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:26 AM   #5
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good point bbs they are examples of double standards.It seems ok for them but not for others.
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Old 11-22-2010, 06:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
http://www.neurope.eu/articles/103717.php

The Case of the Indigenous Aramean (Syriac) People


Onur, I suspect you will have a go at this.
Is there anything you can tell us about these people?
RTG, Syrian christians are among dozens of different communities who suffered because of the destruction of Ottoman Empire after WW-1. They are cousins of muslim Syrians and they were living close to our Syrian border b4 WW-1(ofc there was no Syria and no borders in those days) and when the war and Armenian uprising started, they have immigrated/escaped to the south, to the Syria.


The thing is, these people, along with Armenians and Greeks, tend to represent themselves like they were supposedly the sole community who suffered during that times, but this is not true. They tend to ignore everything and declare Turkey and Turks were like the only responsible side for everything. They purposely ignore that there was a civil war in eastern Anatolia during WW-1 between Armenians and Turks/Kurds. On top of this, Anatolia invaded by 7 different countries after WW-1.

You know, when Anzacs and Turkish people was killing each other in Gallipoli, Armenians allied with Russians and French at the east and started an uprising. Since all of our army was at the west side, dying together with Anzacs, Kurdish version of bashibozuk irregulars was the only force vs Armenians and Russians for a long time and they responded to the Armenian terror with Kurdish terror and they didn't separate Arabian christians either. So, thats how these Syriac christians escaped to current Syria.




Quote:
Turkey, the recent years have witnessed a series of widely acclaimed reform packages and constitutional amendments in this ever more de-Christianized, Islamified state.
False assumption again. Turkey wasn't "de-Christianized" herself, all by her own will. This was a result of series of unfortunate events like WW-1, uprisings, civil war, invasion by 7 different country, forced migrations and population exchange. This was a consequence of series of unfortunate events, mostly beyond our control, rather than something we aimed for.

Millions of muslim Turks from Balkans, Russia, Ukraine forced to migrate into Anatolia and then a close to million Armenians expelled from here just to stop the civil war between Turks/Kurds and Armenians, then some more escaped from here like Syriac christians and now, Turkey becomes responsible for all of this!!?? What an unfair accusation this is!!!


The one and only thing which i`ve never understood is, if we are responsible for all the things happened here in WW-1 days then who is responsible for the death of 30% of total Turkish population and forced immigration of 3,5 million Turks from Balkans and Russia at those days??? Whom we gonna ask for compensation of our own misery?? Besides that, are we barbarians just because we didn't let Greeks to create Hellenic kingdom in Marmara, Aegean and Blacksea side, Italy to occupy southern Turkey, Armenia to create their kingdom in eastern Anatolia? Since when defending your own country against invaders(Italians, Greeks, British, Russians, French) and traitors(Armenians) became a dishonest act?




P. S:Thanks for creating this thread cuz probably you noticed that some people immediately bring Armenian and Kurdish issues whenever they don't have a proper response to my messages about other issues. So, from now on, whenever someone tries to do that, we can direct them to this thread.

Last edited by Onur; 11-22-2010 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:02 AM   #7
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You might wonder why Kurds created their own bashibozuk group against Armenians and fought vs them. Thats why;



This was the Armenian Kingdom, projected by great powers and Russia in WW-1. You can see this map everywhere, even today cuz Armenia still doesn't recognize our border with them and their constitution still mentions about eastern Anatolia as a part of their Armenian kingdom.

As you can see, it includes all the Kurdish populated areas too. So thats how Kurds realized that their survival depends on the survival of Turkey and they fought vs Armenians cuz if this hypothetical Armenian kingdom would have been realized, then there was one and only fate for all the Kurds in there and it was same as the Turks of eastern Anatolia which was death and exile, nothing else.


I think you probably don't know this either;
Before Ottoman government expelled Armenians from eastern Anatolia to the current Armenia, Armenians in that territory was a small minority. Current Armenia was 1000+ year old Azeri Turkish land. After Ottoman government expelled them to there, they became majority and then they ethnically cleansed all the Azeri Turks in there. If you check the names of all the cities in current Armenia, it`s all Turkish names cuz that place was a historical Azeri land. Russians also supported the creation of Armenia because they wanted the locate Armenians there to use them as some kind of buffer between Turkey and the rest of the Turkic states. Bolshevik's primary fear was some kind of uprising in Turkic states with the support of Turkey in those days because Khazar sea oil was their primary source of energy.

Then in 1990s, Armenia occupied %30 of Azerbaijani land and they ethnically cleansed these places again by killing them and expelling 2 million Azeri Turks. Currently there is not even single Turkish/Azeri person in both Armenia and their recently occupied Nagorno-Karabakh region.

Last edited by Onur; 11-22-2010 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 11-22-2010, 10:22 AM   #8
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It is a crack-up reading the amoral racist and plain wrong un and eu preaching morals and human rights…if they could get their noses out of he clouds they would have notice hypocrisy filth they walk in has reached their ears.
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:56 PM   #9
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Thanks Onur, always interesting to read your thoughts.
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Thanks Onur, always interesting to read your thoughts.

Thanks to you RTG.

I already said that these people were one of the victims of horrible things happened here during WW-1 but like i said, it was not only christian population who suffered here, it was everyone.

If we put history aside, it appears that some of these Arabian christians are just a tool for Greco-Armenian lobbies today. They are trying to get profit from the suffering of people 100 years ago. Check this out;
Quote:

International Conference «Three Genocides, One Strategy»




A first systematic attempt in Greece for scientific registration and analysis of the genocide, which was initially perpetrated the Ottomans and then by the Turkish, on the Christian populations of the East was the 2-day international conference “Three Genocides, One Strategy”. The proceedings of the conference ended on Sunday noon at the Old Parliament Hall.

The decision of the World Academic Union to perform a study on the Genocide on December 2007, in Sarajevo triggered the claim for collective memory towards the slaughtered Armenians and Greeks of Pontus, Minor Asia and the Assyrians and the crime inflicted on the three nations of the East was recognized as “Genocide”.

A few months later in Komotini, the first attempt at a broad discussion of the issue took place in Greece through the organization of an international workshop. In spring 2010, the recognition of the three genocides followed, by the parliament of Sweden, “a country”, as it was noted by the Chairman of the Organizing Committeee of the Conference, Antonis Pavlidis, “which strongly supports the European perspective of Turkey, a fact which brings the latter to a dead end, not allowing any room for political expediency, as usual”.

The leader in this struggle was the Swedish MP, of Greek origin, Nikos Papadopoulos, who spoke at the Conference, submitting his proposals for further action, so that the Genocides will be recognized. Mr. Papadopoulos suggested the establishment of an International Greek Committee for the recognition of the Three Genocides and stressed the need to form strong lobbies, as well as the dissemination and exchange of information and scientific data through online communication with universities, institutes, forums and groups. As he said “we are not governed by feelings of hatred. The issue regarding the recognition of the genocides is a matter of Justice. When Willy Brandt raised the great issue of the Holocaust, he provided a new dimension to the relations between the states”.

During his speech, the director of the Museum of the Holocaust in Jerusalem, Israel Charny, noted that “as in the case of the recognition of the genocide of the Armenians, for which we gave a long and tough struggle, which was successful, there are those who deny those who had the same fate – the Assyrians, the Greeks, the Yazidis and some Kurds. He said that researchers report 2.3 million in total, who are victims of genocide by the Turkish, along with 1-1.5 million Armenians. Concluding, he suggested the establishment of an international Organization on the Right to Life of all these nations, in which nations-victims of genocide and those who take action to ensure the right to life will be involved.

The well known writer and historian, Tea Halo, analyzed the role of Germany in the specific period and the utter indifference of King Constantinos at the time for what was happening to the Greeks of the East.

The President of the European Federation of Armenians, Ms. Hilda Tchoboian, recorded the stance of the European Union on the issue of recognition of the Genocides as well as the obstacles that the EU places in the resolutions of the European Parliament.



http://en.sae.gr/?id=20546&tag=Inter...Strategy%C2%BB

Quote:
The struggle for the recognition of any genocide is the most important fight
that a man can give. For, it is not only a matter of the Greeks, the Armenians, the
Assyrians or any other people.

All the governments have a duty to recognize the crime, proving their human
dignity. They have to prove that they are not vaguely interested in the human
rights, but they actually recognize the fundamental rights of humanity.

On behalf of the Organizing Committee
Dr PAVLIDIS ANTONIS
Historian
President of the Pan-Hellenic Association

http://beta.genocidepreventionnow.or..._Genocides.pdf
I don't even wanna comment for this nonsense since everything is clear.

With the support of Greek government, they do this conference in the old parliament building, Athens - Greece and it says that their previous conference was in Komotini - Greece, where Turkish people are %60 of all population in that area in western Thrace. I believe they choose these locations very precisely.

There are many inconsistencies like you know, both Armenians and Syriac christians says that Kurds was with the Turks, both of them killed the christians but in this article, it says that the Turks also commit genocide upon Kurds and Yazidis(a Kurdish tribe)!!! I mean, wtf is this? and their numbers are exorbitantly exaggerated to ridicules highs!!! According to them, we killed 2.3 million people here!!!!! This is impossible, their total population wasn't even 2.3 million in total, all Armenians, Syriacs and Kurds in 1910s.

Everything they say are beyond ridicules but most idiotic one is "genocide of Greeks"!!!!!!

Last edited by Onur; 11-23-2010 at 01:23 PM.
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