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Old 05-20-2011, 09:12 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
I think at that time both of you were flooding the forum with so many great sources that it was hard to keep up! Bring back those days
Daskale are you game ?
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Old 05-21-2011, 01:32 AM   #222
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Yes of course lets do it!
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:38 AM   #223
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I think if you bring back those days it's going to keep the greeks at bay because they cant' handle the truth.With the TM'S "slayer of the greek Myth" & The Daskales search for the real truth we can't lose. Go for it guys!
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:56 AM   #224
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Default Population data recognizing Macedonian identity‏

Population data recognizing Macedonian identity



By Nick Anastasovski

June 12, 2011



BY THE LATE nineteenth century, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria had either gained full independence or were self-administered in a semi- autonomous capacity. As such they were able to utilize a range of State resources to support and promote their position in Macedonia. European patrons and national churches were also of crucial importance in the independence struggles of the Balkan States. Prior to the abolition in 1767 of the Archbishopric of Ohrid by the Ottomans (at the instigation of the Constantinople Patriarchate), there were numerous examples of Macedonian archbishops traveling to the royal courts of Europe seeking support for rebellions and other assistance against the Ottoman Turkish rulers. (1)



At the end of the nineteenth century, Macedonia remained under what is widely regarded as backward Ottoman rule. The Macedonian bourgeoisie was in its early stages of formation, there was no recent tradition of Statehood, no royal family, and with an abolished church were was little opportunity of influencing foreign governments to support Macedonian sovereignty. No significant body existed to attract foreign political support, foreign ethnographers or statisticians. In contrast the Balkan States utilized a wide range of State apparatus, including diplomats and national churches. The Greek national hero Dragoumis recognized the value of public opinion in Western Europe and even “urged friends to write in European newspapers and make propaganda on behalf of Greece's national interests”. (2)



The politically disadvantaged position of Macedonians was recognized by Kosta Shahov, editor of the journal “Makedonija”, who stated, “today the press is stronger than the cannon and almost all people of the world use it, except us”. (3) Macedonian print media outside Macedonia was largely concentrated in Serbia and particularly Bulgaria, and aimed at the Macedonian pechalba and émigré communities. The views of Macedonian newspapers sometimes were in conflict with the authorities and it was not unusual for publications to be banned from sale. In 1902, “Balkanski Glasnik”, published in Belgrade, was prohibited by the Serb government after eight issues for advocating an autonomous Macedonia. The paper was publicly burned on the streets of Belgrade by the authorities. (4) Prohibited from further pursuing journalistic activities, the editor of “Balkanski Glasnik” (Stefan Jakimov-Dedov) moved to Sofia and in 1903 recommenced publication of the newspaper under the name of “Balkan”, but it too met with the same fate under the Bulgarian authorities. The following year, 1904, Jakimov re-launched a new newspaper “Courier”, which advocated an independent Macedonia. Twenty issues were published before it too was banned. (5)



In Western Europe Macedonian views were virtually non- existent. Macedonian students in Geneva published “L'Effort” with the intention of informing Europe of the internal political situation in Macedonia and supporting the Macedonian Revolutionary Movement. Published in the French language, several issues appeared in 1900-1901. (6) The newspaper was re-launched in Paris in 1902, and was published bi-monthly under the title of “Le Mouvement Macedonien”. It ceased publication in 1903. (7) Based in London, the “L’Autonomie” newspaper was published in French with only five issues appearing during 1902. (8) No English language newspapers were published. A Russian language paper appeared in Odessa in 1905 (one issue –“Vardar”) and a Croatian/German language newspaper, “Makedonija -Macedonia – Macedonien”, was published in Croatia from November 1898 to January 1899. (9)



The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Movement was not yet developed sufficiently to exert influence outside of the Balkans. The organization established a permanent foreign branch in Sofia (Bulgaria) on 28 July 1895, but no evidence exists that it pursued matters of an ethnographical or statistical nature. The main reason for its formation was that “the greater part of the most politically active Macedonian immigrants were there. The Macedonian Liberation Movement counted on their financial contributions.” (10) No attention was paid to the declarations of Macedonian patriots that they were neither Greeks, nor Serbs nor Bulgarians, as no European Power had a vested interest in a “Macedonia for the Macedonians”. The few ethnographers and commentators who recognized Macedonian identity were therefore unlikely to have been influenced by Macedonian lobbying.



An important work recognizing Macedonian national individuality was that of the Austrian Karl Hron in 1899. He attacked the Serbian view as expressed through Verkovich and particularly Gopchevich, exposing its “weaknesses, distortions, falsifications and unscientific conclusions concerning the proper position of the Macedonians with respect to their nationality”. Hron was convinced that the Macedonians were not “Serbs or Bulgarians”, but “a specific national group”. (11) Although he did not provide specific population data he nevertheless concluded that the Macedonians were the dominant ethnic group in the land.



Data compiled by Hron, Oestreich, Gersin and Georgiev differed vastly from that of Greek, Bulgarian, Serb and other European commentators. All recognized the majority of the population as distinctly Macedonian rather than Bulgarian or Serb. The German Dr. Karl Oestreich determined that Macedonians constituted a separate people from Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians, and estimated the Macedonian Christians at 1,500,000 and Macedonian Muslims at 500,000, from a total population of 2,850,000. (12) Gersin also considered Macedonians made up a separate nationality and provided population data declaring Macedonians as constituting the majority of the population, totaling 52.4 per cent. A figure of 1,182,036 represented the combined total of Macedonian Christians and Macedonian Muslims according to Gersin. (13) The Russian G. G. Georgiev's data appeared in the Macedonian publication “Makedonski Glas”, published by the Macedonian colony in St Petersburg in 1913. Amongst the highest of estimates Georgiev counted a total population of 3,500,000 people with a Macedonian majority accounting for 65 per cent of the population (2,275,000). There was no corresponding enlargement of Macedonian boundaries to account for the increased population. Georgiev adhered to the generally accepted frontiers of Macedonia, and included upper Korcha in the west, Kachanik in the north and the southern boundary as marked by Mount Olympus. The island of Thasos was also included as constituting a part of Macedonian territory. (14)



NOTES:



1. See M. Minoski, Osloboditelnite Dvizhenja i Vostanija vo Makedonia (1564-1615) [Liberation movements and uprisings in Macedonia (1564-1615)], Skopje, 1972, and S.Dimevski, Istorija na Makedonskata Pravoslavna Crkva (History of the Macedonian Orthodox Church], Skopje, 1989.



2. G. Augustinos, op, cit. p. 126.



3. Makedonija, Issue Number 1,21 October 1888, p. 1.



4. B. Mokrov, and T. Gruevski, Pregled na Makedonskiot Pechat (1885-1992) [Review of the Macedonian Press (1885-1992)], Skopje, 1993, p. 19.



5. Ibid, p. 19.



6. Ibid, p. 63.



7. Ibid, p. 82.



8. Ibid, p. 62.



9. Ibid, pp. 41, 66. For an examination of Macedonian political orientation as expressed through IMRO publications prior to the Ilinden insurrection of 1903, see B. Mokrov, Borbata za idejna politichka chistota na Makedonskiot narod preku vesnicite na VMRO [The battle for the future political purity of the Macedonian people through the newspapers of IMRO], Krushevo, 1979.



10. L. Lape, “The Foreign Branch of the Secret Macedonian Odrin Revolutionary Organization”, Skopje, 1985, p. 158. Other foreign branches operated in an unofficial capacity, in Athens and Istanbul. There is limited information regarding their activities, as no documentation has survived. References regarding the activities of these branches were made largely through the memoirs of the Macedonian revolutionary leader, Gjorche Petrov. There also appears to have been a temporary branch in Geneva. Nevertheless no direct evidence is available indicating that the organization sought to exert any influence on intellectuals to conduct any type of census data in Macedonia. Macedonian historians generally consider that the role of the foreign representatives was directed towards securing financial support for the organization, for the purchase of arms. The renowned Macedonian revolutionary leader Boris Saraffov once offered the United States Consul in Petrograd a Macedonian legion to help in the fight for Cuban independence during the Spanish American war, in exchange for the United States supplying IMRO with arms to fight the Ottomans. S. Christowe, “Heroes and Assassins”, London, 1935, p. 67.



11. K. Hron, “Narodnosta na Makedonskite Sloveni” [The Nationality of the Macedonian Slavs], Skopje, 1966, p. 29 (Macedonian reprint, original title “Das Volksthum der Slaven Makedoniens”, Wien, 1890).



12. K. Oestreich, Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien, (Geogr. Zeitschr., Xl, 1905, p. 292), as quoted in J. Cvijic, Questions Balkaniques, Paris, 1916, Appendix (No page number).



13. K. Gersin, Macedonien und das Turkische Problem, Vienna, 1903, as quoted in H. Andonovski, Foreign Authors on Macedonia and the Macedonians, Skopje, 1977, p. 200.



14. Makedonski Golos [Macedonian -Makedonski Glas, English- Macedonian Voice] The publication of the Macedonian colony in Saint Petersburg, Russia, Year 1, Issue Number 2, pp. 28-34.



Nick Anastasovski has made use of over sixty primary and more that one hundred and thirty secondary sources as well as numerous other documents to put this book together.

With 520 pages and a large format, “The Contest For Macedonian Identity 1870-1912” is a well researched and easy to read book that everyone should own. It is an excellent defensive weapon to use in the protection of the Macedonian identity.



“The Contest For Macedonian Identity 1870-1912” is the ninth Macedonian book published by Pollitecon Publications. It is available in Australia for $35 plus $10 postage.



In North America the book can be purchased from the Canadian Macedonian Historical Society’s web page www.macedonianhistory.ca for $ 45 Canadian. See http://www.macedonianhistory.ca/html/books.html



The Contest For Macedonian Identity 1870-1912



By Nick Anastasovski



Published by

POLLITECON PUBLICATIONS

PO Box 3102 Abbotsford NSW 2046

Australia Ph: (02) 9713 7608
Fx: (02) 9713 1004

Em: [email protected]

Web: www.pollitecon.com



Editor & Publisher: Victor Bivell



Front Cover: A Macedonian family from the Reka region of western Macedonia circa early 20th century.



ISBN 978-0-9804763-0-9



@ Copyright 2008



About the author:



Nick Anastasovski was born in 1965 in Bitola, Macedonia. He arrived with his family in Australia in early 1966 and grew up in the western suburbs of Melbourne. He graduated from La Trobe University with a Bachelor of Arts degree with majors in Sociology and Philosophy. He was awarded the degree of Doctor of Philosophy at Victoria University in 2006 for The Contest for Macedonian Identity 1870-1912 (under the title of Contestations over Macedonian Identity 1870-1912). In recognition of Nick's academic performance, he was awarded Outstanding Final Year Research Student in the School of Social Sciences at Victoria University in 2006.



In North America this book can be purchased from the Canadian Macedonian Historical Society’s web page www.macedonianhistory.ca for $ 45 Canadian. See http://www.macedonianhistory.ca/html/books.html



Articles by Risto Stefov:



http://www.maknews.com/html/articles.html#stefov

http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3446



Free electronic books by Risto Stefov available at:



http://makedonskakafana.com/macedonian_ebooks.html



Our Name is Macedonia


www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia
from email fro r stefov
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:21 AM   #225
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It has gone a month now since this topic was last visited. Still no input at all from our Greek members, how come?
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:28 AM   #226
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I think this is also relevent here, just to add some interesting texture and hsitorical and political context to the U.S immigration records:

Quote:
Brown (1996) has discovered U.S Immigration Service records that attest to the fact that between 1900 and 1906 immigrants arriving from Macedonia, then still under Ottoman Turkey, called themselves Macedonians and their language Macedonian. It was only at the intervention of American "experts" that the classification of Macedonian was eliminated from the immigration documents, and self declared Macedonians were recorded as Bulgars, Serbs or Greeks.
Source: Victor A. Friedman, "The Modern Macedonian Standard Language and Its Relation to Modern Macedonian Identity" in Victor Roudometof (ed.) Macedonian Question: Culture, Historiography, Politics, New York, 2000, p.189
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:10 AM   #227
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Default Macedonians going to America in the early 1900's!











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Old 08-26-2011, 04:16 AM   #228
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There are also the original copies of the passengers from the US immigration with info such as their height, hair colour etc however the writing is too messy to be understood.
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Old 08-26-2011, 06:23 AM   #229
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United MKD do you know that the daskale is after documents like these he is collating on another thread maybe you can repost them there.They seem to be real & prove macedonian existence around 1900.Here's the link.The more the better.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=5687

Last edited by George S.; 08-26-2011 at 06:39 AM. Reason: ed
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Old 08-26-2011, 07:26 AM   #230
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I think this subject was up years ago on Maknews forum (but nice to see it brought to light again no doubt)
I think Victor Friedman wrote some scientific paper on it?
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