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Old 04-09-2019, 10:10 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Carlin15 View Post
I wonder if there were more "branches"/groups of VMRO than just the Left-Right split (I'm referring to the post WW1 period).
There were other factions, definitely.

Sandanski's faction the so called Serres Group.

Sarafov's faction.
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Old 04-10-2019, 12:40 AM   #32
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Above talks about the early factions post Ilinden.
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Old 04-10-2019, 03:07 AM   #33
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Above talks about the early factions post Ilinden.


Where's this from?
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Old 04-10-2019, 08:25 AM   #34
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People need to realise that many Macedonians during that time had to adapt to their new surroundings and environment (Misirkov is a fine example)
Yes, of course. But some people adapted in ways that ended up being more harmful (or more helpful) to the Macedonian Cause. For example, take Aleksandrov sending Srebren Poppetrov to organize the "Macedonian-Bulgarians" in the U.S. Poppetrov was one of Aleksandrov's most trusted loyalists, and he wrote back the following (in 1924):

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The Bulgarians in America are in large majority from Macedonia. Before the wars, these Macedonian-Bulgarians went, earned money, and returned to their native country. After the wars, not only do they not return to their loved ones, but they almost always call for their families to come here.

The universe does not lose the fact that some of them are not called Orthodox, but instead Protestants or Catholics, and that some have lost a national Bulgarian feeling and are called Serbs, Greeks, Russians or whatever … If our nation is organized faithfully and nationally, it will only be saved for the future reintegration of our homeland of Macedonia and for the kingdom, but by then it will be a force that will be taken into account in solving our big questions.
Along with Chkatroff, Poppetrov helped form the MPO at Aleksandrov's directive. They did so as a means, in reality, to form a pro-Bulgarian Macedonian organization. That about 3/4 of Macedonians in the US during the 1920s wanted nothing to do with MPO should send a pretty clear message about how convincing Aleksandrov's (and then Mihajlov's) brand of "Macedonianism" was to most Macedonians in the U.S. Even many of those who had once been staunch Sarafov supporters wanted nothing to do with Aleksandrov's minions in the U.S. I have no doubt that this is because most Macedonians suspected, as evidenced by Poppetrov's letter above, that Aleksandrov was really working for the Bulgarian kingdom and not a pure Macedonian independence movement. This act of sending two of his loyalists to "organize the Bulgarians of Macedonia in America" did more harm than good to the Macedonian interests in the diaspora. We have Aleksandrov to thank for the lasting legacy of MPO and their fight against a thing called a Macedonian identity, language and church.

Aleksandrov had many Vardar Macedonians under Serbia under his sway because he fought against the Serbian occupation, but I still view his brand of Macedonianism as fairly closely aligned with that of Greater Bulgaria's interests in an "independent Macedonian movement", at least for most of his life.

I think he is a complicated, mixed bag -- many positive actions for Macedonians and many negative actions. Sure, all Macedonian revolutionaries were controversial, as are all Balkan figures, but there is no comparison between Aleksandrov and Delcev, Gruev and Sandanski.
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Old 04-10-2019, 08:51 AM   #35
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Thanks for the respones, I am genuinely still on the fence with Aleksandrov. I came across this latest video from Mario's History Talks talking about Todor Aleksandrov which was quite interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fOLYh0jxM
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:51 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
Yes, of course. But some people adapted in ways that ended up being more harmful (or more helpful) to the Macedonian Cause. For example, take Aleksandrov sending Srebren Poppetrov to organize the "Macedonian-Bulgarians" in the U.S. Poppetrov was one of Aleksandrov's most trusted loyalists, and he wrote back the following (in 1924):



Along with Chkatroff, Poppetrov helped form the MPO at Aleksandrov's directive. They did so as a means, in reality, to form a pro-Bulgarian Macedonian organization. That about 3/4 of Macedonians in the US during the 1920s wanted nothing to do with MPO should send a pretty clear message about how convincing Aleksandrov's (and then Mihajlov's) brand of "Macedonianism" was to most Macedonians in the U.S. Even many of those who had once been staunch Sarafov supporters wanted nothing to do with Aleksandrov's minions in the U.S. I have no doubt that this is because most Macedonians suspected, as evidenced by Poppetrov's letter above, that Aleksandrov was really working for the Bulgarian kingdom and not a pure Macedonian independence movement. This act of sending two of his loyalists to "organize the Bulgarians of Macedonia in America" did more harm than good to the Macedonian interests in the diaspora. We have Aleksandrov to thank for the lasting legacy of MPO and their fight against a thing called a Macedonian identity, language and church.

Aleksandrov had many Vardar Macedonians under Serbia under his sway because he fought against the Serbian occupation, but I still view his brand of Macedonianism as fairly closely aligned with that of Greater Bulgaria's interests in an "independent Macedonian movement", at least for most of his life.

I think he is a complicated, mixed bag -- many positive actions for Macedonians and many negative actions. Sure, all Macedonian revolutionaries were controversial, as are all Balkan figures, but there is no comparison between Aleksandrov and Delcev, Gruev and Sandanski.

Yeah there is conflicting information on Aleksandrov no doubt. He seems to have moved more and more away from Bulgaria as time went on though. Perhaps he realised our future was not with them? Keen to hear your thoughts on this Vic
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Old 04-10-2019, 10:48 AM   #37
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Yeah there is conflicting information on Aleksandrov no doubt. He seems to have moved more and more away from Bulgaria as time went on though. Perhaps he realised our future was not with them? Keen to hear your thoughts on this Vic
I actually think he started out with pure intentions and, as with many youth, had ambitious ideological stances. As he became more entrenched in the politics, he began to play the different sides (Bulgarian government, Macedonian communists, etc.) not solely for the benefit of Macedonia and the Macedonians, but to cement his power and position, a vicious loop that many leaders find themselves in. His actions demonstrate, on several occasions, that in his later years he was more worried about losing control over the Macedonian movement and people than he was about any ideological convictions. He was outmatched in this regard by his protégé Mihajlov's thirst for power.

Aleksandrov moved closer to an independent Macedonia free from Bulgaria's grip as time went on, but I doubt he genuinely embraced the concept of a separate Macedonian nationality by the time of his death. At the same time, the Macedonian awakening was still ramping up -- had Aleksandrov lived through WW2, we would have been able to discern his true feelings on the matter.
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:07 PM   #38
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I actually think he started out with pure intentions and, as with many youth, had ambitious ideological stances. As he became more entrenched in the politics, he began to play the different sides (Bulgarian government, Macedonian communists, etc.) not solely for the benefit of Macedonia and the Macedonians, but to cement his power and position, a vicious loop that many leaders find themselves in. His actions demonstrate, on several occasions, that in his later years he was more worried about losing control over the Macedonian movement and people than he was about any ideological convictions. He was outmatched in this regard by his protégé Mihajlov's thirst for power.

Aleksandrov moved closer to an independent Macedonia free from Bulgaria's grip as time went on, but I doubt he genuinely embraced the concept of a separate Macedonian nationality by the time of his death. At the same time, the Macedonian awakening was still ramping up -- had Aleksandrov lived through WW2, we would have been able to discern his true feelings on the matter.
I agree with the above, i agree that the person Aleksandrov sent (or it could've been Mihajlov due to the zagovor against Aleksandrov at the time) had those intentions to influence the Macedonians in America. There has been research done by Stavre Dzikov who claims the contrary however that MPO was pro Macedonian whilst Aleksandrov was alive and only became influenced to revert from Macedonian to Pan-Bulgarianism after Mihajlov sent his own people after Aleksandrov's death. (When i have more time i will translate and post up on here)

If we paint Aleksandrov with a black brush, we would then have to paint many others who at other moments in time could be classified as controversial due to certain

I believe there was a chance he would've grasped the concept of a separate Macedonian identity as he was also supportive of the may manifesto which in my opinion if it succeeded would've united the Macedonian factions in a common goal free from Bulgarianism.

However the May manifesto broke down due to the left and i cannot hold Aleksandrov accountable for that as both sides did silly things at times.
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:17 PM   #39
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Where's this from?
It's from:

The Macedonian Question 1893–1908 From Western Sources by Nadine Lange–akhund
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:10 PM   #40
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Letter from Aleksandrov to Tsar Ferdinand I about the difficulties in food and populations' livelihoods, the poor attitude of the Germans towards the Bulgarian army and suggestions for the elimination of the weaknesses. February 25, 1917:

"We think that it is necessary to react against the small whims and attacks committed by the Germans and Turks in order not to expand and take dangerous proportions, and to make everything possible for the conclusion of the great people's cause - unification of the Bulgarian tribe under the scepter of Your Majesty."
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