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Old 08-18-2010, 05:09 PM   #1
Вардарец
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Default The Albanians of Macedonia

When i was younger, i always thought that the Albanians migrated in the Balkans/Macedonia during Ottoman times. I was wrong, but partly.

The first mention of Albanians in the Balkans is in the early 11 century, but that doesn't apply for Macedonia alone.

As most Macedonians are, i am also irritated when the Albanians from the Republic of Macedonia claim that they are the oldest population in the region and label us as newcomers.

Well, i don't deny their right to live in this lands. They have been here as long as the Turks, which would mean at least 500 years and i would be racist if i deny them the right to call Macedonia their home. 500 years is a very long time span.

However, i was not able to find any sources mentioning Albanians living in Macedonia and Kosovo prior the Ottoman conquest of the region.

I've seen in some books that they were given lands here because they accepted Islam (so they can balance the religious percentage of the land).

So, i would really like to see any quote/source mentioning that Albanians live in the following areas: Kumanovo, Skopje, Tetovo, Gostivar, Struga and possibly Kosovo, prior to the Ottoman conquest of the region/Macedonia - the unofficial date being 1371 (After the Maritsa battle).

I asked Epirot to provide me with some quotes in the other topic (Albanians and their supposed Illyrian origins, but he provided me with a quote from Ottoman times)

Quote:
Uskup is a stern place with a breath of the mountains upon it. It is but an eight hours’ journey from Salonica, but, thanks to the restrictions of travel and intercourse, wholly free of a Levantine atmosphere. It is peopled principally by Arnauts – as the Turks call the Albanians – and Slavs, both men of character, though their morals are of a peculiar code.
(The Balkan trial [i.e. trail]Autorzy Frederick Moore, pg.185
What am i looking for is a quote that Albanians live in the above mentioned regions before the arrival of the Ottoman Turks, and not that Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians and Moesians live in this region prior the Ottoman conquest.

Fellow Macedonians and Albanians (all others are welcomed too), lets discuss this and shred some light to the topic. I am really tired of Albanians labeling me as a newcomer in my own country.

Please, prove your existence in these regions by citing some medieval sources.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:28 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Вардарец View Post
So, i would really like to see any quote/source mentioning that Albanians live in the following areas: Kumanovo, Skopje, Tetovo, Gostivar, Struga and possibly Kosovo, prior to the Ottoman conquest of the region/Macedonia - the unofficial date being 1371 (After the Maritsa battle).

This is kinda impossible or at least close to the impossible because arrival of Anatolian Turks was so early as you noted and before that date of 1371, Balkans was in constant turmoil since 7th AD. I don't think you can find a proper record for any minor society in Balkans, let alone specifically for Macedonia. If there was Albanians in there b4 1371, they would had to be an ally or enemy to the Byzantine Empire to be able to get mentioned in their archives. Or at least, they would had to be a lot in terms of population(which they wouldn't be). I mean they would had to be a significance to the Byzantines to be able to get mentioned in their records.

Also, as i recently learned, earliest written Albanian text was from late 15th century, so you probably cannot find a proof for their presence earlier than that either.


So, all you can find are the unprovable ancient Illyrian theories and post Ottoman reign records.






Quote:
I've seen in some books that they were given lands here because they accepted Islam (so they can balance the religious percentage of the land).
This cant be the truth because no one could get an ownership of a certain territory just because they were muslims. For example, Ottoman Empire ruled not only in Balkans, in whole middle-east too and these lands was belonged to the Turks again, not the Arabs. There is only one thing; Ottoman government could displace and relocate certain people if there was a disagreement or disharmony among the people but this was never in huge numbers which can be called as exile or expulsion except the case with Armenians at eastern Anatolia in 1915. If something like that would happen, we would know now.

Ottoman governments didn't even care for the percentages of muslims and christians in Balkans either. For example, %95 of Turkish people in Balkans lived in Macedonia(including Aegean side) and Bulgaria, between Salonika at south to Kosovo at furthest north. Why you think? because of fertile soil of these places, for agriculture. Most Turkish crowded land was always Aegean Macedonia and this proves that these people settled here all by their own needs. If Ottoman governments would care for religious percentages, they could easily settle these people to current Serbia, Hungary, Romania, southern Greece etc. They wouldn't have any problem to find Turkish people either, since Anatolia and Caucasus was full of them.

Last edited by Onur; 08-18-2010 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:58 PM   #3
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:20 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onur View Post
This is kinda impossible or at least close to the impossible because arrival of Anatolian Turks was so early as you noted and before that date of 1371, Balkans was in constant turmoil since 7th AD. I don't think you can find a proper record for any minor society in Balkans, let alone specifically for Macedonia. If there was Albanians in there b4 1371, they would had to be an ally or enemy to the Byzantine Empire to be able to get mentioned in their archives. Or at least, they would had to be a lot in terms of population(which they wouldn't be). I mean they would had to be a significance to the Byzantines to be able to get mentioned in their records.

Also, as i recently learned, earliest written Albanian text was from late 15th century, so you probably cannot find a proof for their presence earlier than that either.


So, all you can find are the unprovable ancient Illyrian theories and post Ottoman reign records.
Indeed Onur. By the way, i am pretty sure that the Romans recorded pretty much everything that settled in Macedonia (and the Balkans as a whole) during their rule in the region. There are dozens of quotes and texts about Anatolian populations (mainly Armenians) being resettled in the Balkans and Macedonia.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Onur View Post
Ottoman governments didn't even care for the percentages of muslims and christians in Balkans either. For example, %95 of Turkish people in Balkans lived in Macedonia(including Aegean side) and Bulgaria, between Salonika at south to Kosovo at furthest north. Why you think? because of fertile soil of these places, for agriculture. Most Turkish crowded land was always Aegean Macedonia and this proves that these people settled here all by their own needs. If Ottoman governments would care for religious percentages, they could easily settle these people to current Serbia, Hungary, Romania, southern Greece etc. They wouldn't have any problem to find Turkish people either, since Anatolia and Caucasus was full of them.
Possible Onur, and yes i agree - the Turkish people were mainly concentrated in the regions that you described, but they were present in the whole peninsula, including the whole of modern day Greece (usually around the Aegean coast.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Onur View Post
This cant be the truth because no one could get an ownership of a certain territory just because they were muslims. For example, Ottoman Empire ruled not only in Balkans, in whole middle-east too and these lands was belonged to the Turks again, not the Arabs. There is only one thing; Ottoman government could displace and relocate certain people if there was a disagreement or disharmony among the people but this was never in huge numbers which can be called as exile or expulsion except the case with Armenians at eastern Anatolia in 1915. If something like that would happen, we would know now.
You are somewhat right, but please consider,

After the Karposh uprising, many christians from the Gostivar, Tetovo, Skopje and Kumanovo regions in Macedonia and Kosovo, in order to avoid persecution by the Ottoman authorities for rebelling, and by the invitation of Leopold, moved in and settled in Austria, where later they formed their own battalions to combat the Ottoman Empire under the Austrian banner. Later, these christians from Macedonia and Kosovo were assimilated into the Austrian culture. (There are a lot of quotes and excerpts proving this). Others moved out and settled in Wallachia and Russia.

In order to repopulate the depopulated places in Macedonia and Kosovo, the Ottoman authorities settled the freshly islamized Albanians.

Of course they were given free land (the land once inhabited by the Macedonian and Kosovo christians who left to live in Austria, Wallachia, Ukraine and Russia).

The Albanians were one of the most loyal subjects to the Sultan. They were obviously settled to balance the situation and prevent the christians from making problems in the future.
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:22 PM   #5
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Good luck!
Hehehehe thanks, i will need it. They are very stubborn, as i see. Иљири, Иљири! бребре
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Old 08-18-2010, 09:47 PM   #6
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A look at the regions demographic over the last century clearly shows that the Albanians have migrated into these regions for the first time.

They are the descendants of Christian Arabs for Syria settled by the Byzantine Empire on the coast of the Adriatic in the 8th and 9th centuries. Their capacity to join the dominant Empire in control at any time has seen them gain many advantages over the natives, i.e., Macedonians.
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:38 AM   #7
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Default Ptolemy

Well, a critical reference is this
Albanoi first occurs in extant written sources in a work of Ptolemy dating back to 150 AD[14]. "Albanopolis of the Albanoi" appears on a map of Ptolemy, a place located in what is now North central Albania.

The Albanoi were Illyrians, but whether the modern Albanians have an ethnic continuity with the Illyrian Albanoi is disputed (see Origin of Albanians), and the ethnonym may have been transferred to an unrelated people. The Albanoi are also named on a Roman-era family epitaph at Scupi, which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians#Ethnonym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:15 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by thessalo-niki View Post
Well, a critical reference is this
Albanoi first occurs in extant written sources in a work of Ptolemy dating back to 150 AD[14]. "Albanopolis of the Albanoi" appears on a map of Ptolemy, a place located in what is now North central Albania.

The Albanoi were Illyrians, but whether the modern Albanians have an ethnic continuity with the Illyrian Albanoi is disputed (see Origin of Albanians), and the ethnonym may have been transferred to an unrelated people. The Albanoi are also named on a Roman-era family epitaph at Scupi, which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians#Ethnonym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians
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Misleading historification.

Let's see where, when and how it started and to finish this subject.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

The territory of present-day Azerbaijan has been continuously inhabited since the Paleolithic era. The first evidence of tribal alliances date to the first millenium BC, when such peoples as the Mannaians, the Medes, the Cadusiis, the Albanoi, and the Caspians appeared.

The famous Russian historian, V.L.Velichko, wrote: "Especially interesting is also the question of Caucasian Albania, or, in Armenian, Aghvank. This country, which incorporated contemporary Elizavetpol' Guberniia, as well as part of Tiflis [Guberniia] and Daghestan, was populated by nations of non-Armenian ancestry.... Until the beginning of XIX century a separate Aghvan or Gandzasar Catolicosat existed, which competed with the Echmiadzin [Armenian Catholicosat].... Currently, the Christians who were before of Aghvan Catholicosat, are considered Armenians, and after mixing with them [assimilating], adopted their character." (p. 66).
Velichko later continues: "An exception were the inhabitants of Karabakh (Albania or Aghvania), incorrectly (in relation to history) called Armenians, who professed the Armenian-Gregorian faith, but were descendants of [Caucasian] Mountaneer and Turkic tribes, and who had gone through the process of Armenianization only three to four centuries earlier." (p.154)

Azerbeidzan scientist R. B. Gejusev published in Bakuu a studious study in 1984, in which he wrote that Kavkaz Albanians were among the first to accept Christianity and, after losing their state under the Arabic invasion, they were exposed to a mass islamisation. A part of them joined Arabic troops and moved with them to Byzantium in the 10th century. That is how and when they arrived at Balkan, by concentrating themselves, mainly in the South of Italy and in Mountains of the contemporary Albania

(V.L. Velichko, "Caucasus: Russian affairs and interethnic questions." St.Petersburg, 1904, pp. 66, 154. IN RUSSIAN: Vasilii L'vovich Velichko "Kavkaz. Russkoe delo i mezhduplemennie voprosi")

The Byzantine historian Michael Ataliota recorded the migration of
Albanians into the region of today's Albania around 1043 AD
when a few thousands of Byzantine mercenaries and their families, who were
previously brought as Arabian slaves from the Caucasus to Sicily, were
settled on the other side of the Adriatic Sea.

(Michael Attaliota: Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Njeberi, Bonnae)


When the blessed Omar conquered Jerusalem, Jabal could not remain any longer in that place, so they boarded ships and took refuge with the king of Spain. Jabal-i Alhama was given the mountains of Dukat, Progonat and Frengis in the Albanian regions of Avlona and Delvina to live in, which were then under Spanish rule. These lands were previously uninhabited and, within a short period of time, he settled them and, mingling with the Franks, they created the Albanian language from a mixture of Frankish and Arabic. The place they originally inhabited, and where they still reside after many generations, is now called the mountain of Quryelesh, since they are descended from the Quraysh tribe of Arabs. Accordingly, the Albanian people boast that they are descended from the Quraysh, the companions of the Prophet. Although Jabal-i Alhama died as a Muslim and was buried at this site according to his last will and testament, his descendants intermarried with the treacherous Franks and became Frankish and bookless themselves..........The Albanians claim that their ancestor Jabal-i Alhama was a companion of the Prophet and died a Muslim. In short, Jabal-i Alhama of the Quraysh tribe is the ancestor of the Albanian..........


Quryelesh = Kurvelesh -toponym in today's Albania. A coincidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurvelesh

They all speak Arnaud, which is like no other tongue. In origin, the Arnaudi were one of the Arab tribes of Quraysh in Mecca. That is why there are some Arabic words still in use among them. When these Arnaud tribesmen emerged from the mountains of Skadar and Vlora, they mingled with the Italians and Franks, and so, during the Caliphate of Omar, produced a language between Arabic and Frankish.

“Jabal-i Alhama subsequently died as a Muslim in the city of Elbasan. In the Tuhfa history, there is extensive information on this Arab tribe. This clan of Quraysh actually do look like Arabs........ “

Robert Dankoff, Robert Elsie; Evliya Celebi in Albania and adjacent regions (Kosovo, Montenegro, Ohrid).

Travelling through southern Albania in 1670, Ottoman traveller Evliya Chelebi (1611-1684) recounts the apocryphal legend of the Arab sheikh Jabal-i Alhama, who fled to the mountains of Kurvelesh in Albania and died in Elbasan. According to Evliya, he is the father of the Albanian people.

http://www.albanianliterature.net/oral_lit3/OL3-11.html





"Albanus" = foreigners


Strabo:



"Argonauts" - after Argonaut Armenos

Kolchis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchis




The city of Albanopolis in Balkans is first mentioned in 2 century AD by Ptolemy:




But Albanopolis already existed in Armenia, from much earlier.
As well the Albanoi and Argonauti.

In the 5th century BC.

Albani:








That's why we have to pay attention to the chronological historical development and the transfer of toponyms.

От османски регистри от XV–XVI в. може да се види, че редица селища в района на югозападна България носят названието Арбанас. Такива са Арбанас в Софийска каза, Арбанас в каза Радомир, Арбанас в каза Кюстендил, махалите Арбанас в Славище и Сирищник.

Заселването на албанците в Долни Дебър е позволило тяхното пнататъшно придвижване в източна посока.
В съседната област Горна Река, лежаща около поречието на р. Радика, албанците вероятно са се установили трайно още през XIV в. Може да се приеме, че Горна Река и Полог са първите западномакедонски области, в който още през XIV в. е имало масови заселвания на албанци.

Първото свидетелство за наличието на албанци в Горна Река е гореспоменатият османски данъчен регистър от 1467 г.
Тук албански лични имена преобладават в села със славянски названия като Вълковия, Търница, Кракорница, Стрезимир, Рибничица(121). Смесеният етнически характер на вилает Река не е убегнал от погледа на османския данъчен регистратор.

http://www.imir-bg.org/imir/books/al...te_balkani.pdf


The Albanians are divided into four tribes. These are, the Gheghides and Mirdites, the Toskides, the Tsamides, and the Liapides.

The Toskides are the most handsome of the Albanians. They have noble features, with fair hair and blue eyes, indicating the mixture of Georgian blood, which probably flows in their veins : less warlike than their countrymen of the other tribes, their stature is also less Herculean. They are supposed to have derived their name from the Toxidse, mentioned by Chardin as inhabiting Mingrelia.

The Principality of Mingrelia was a historical state in Georgia ruled by the Dadiani dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Mingrelia

The country now occupied by this tribe lies to the south of that of the Ghegs and Mirdites, and extends to the river Vojutza. It is called by themselves Toskouria. Their chief places are Elbassan and Berat, called by the Turks Arnaout Belgrad, in order to distinguish it from Belgrade on the Danube. Te-pellene, the birth-place of Ali Pasha, is now included in their territory, although it was formerly considered as belonging to the infamous Liapides.

The women of the Toske tribe are remarkable for their beauty, like those of Georgia, whence they issue, according to the conjecture of some antiquaries.


In their own language they call themselves Skipetar, which name bears some affinity with that of of the Skitekip, mentioned by the Armenian geographers as inhabiting a territory near the Caspian.

Journal of the Ethnological Society of London (1848-1856)
Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland


http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1848_2.html
http://www.archive.org/stream/edinbu...6edin_djvu.txt


iWin.
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:21 AM   #9
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However, i was not able to find any sources mentioning Albanians living in Macedonia and Kosovo prior the Ottoman conquest of the region.
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:52 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Pelister View Post
A look at the regions demographic over the last century clearly shows that the Albanians have migrated into these regions for the first time.

They are the descendants of Christian Arabs for Syria settled by the Byzantine Empire on the coast of the Adriatic in the 8th and 9th centuries. Their capacity to join the dominant Empire in control at any time has seen them gain many advantages over the natives, i.e., Macedonians.
Many of them migrated into Macedonia for the first time during the 20th century, that would be correct, judging by the censuses done in Macedonia after WWII

Here is a link: http://faq.macedonia.org/information/ethnic.makeup.html

The % of Albanian population has risen from 12.% in 1963 to 22.7% in 1994.

Pretty unrealistic, they haven't doubled. And some brainless Albanians claim that they constitute 35% of the population in Macedonia.
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