Greece, History, Truth

[Ottoman]

Greeks ruled my ass, when they ruled Izmir there werent any Turks there, we ruled them for 400 years, they ruled nothing.
They didnt rule us, they only ruled the lands where nobody lived on.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Onur

You know, Ottoman Empire already had already all Balkan provinces b4 conquering Istanbul at 1453 AD and by building that place at 1454, Mehmed II wanted same system to be used for all the future rulers of Wallachia, Serbia etc. under the supervision of Byzantine scholars and ofc with orthodox christianity as a religion instead of islam.

That doesn't exactly qualify the term 'Turkish system', does it? That sort of 'system' which included education for young rulers in the making, etc was already in existence well before the Turks arrived in the Balkans and Anatolia.

Before that era, Vatican was selling territories from heaven for money, filth and diseases was everywhere. They were burning Jews alive by thinking that they were the cause of plague. They were crucifying cats and women for being witches.

The Vatican on its own hardly counts as the whole western world. I think you're referring to some more extreme examples which may have been common in some areas but certainly would not be the norm across the whole western world.

They didn't even have toilets.

Lol, who had toilets in that era, Onur?

[Ottoman]

The Turkish system was different than the previous one in the terms of toleration, Mehmed II tolerated other religions.

Jews suffered a lot in Europe but were allowed to live their lifes on Ottoman grounds.
The whole western world was working this way, burning down heretics, Jews, witches and cats, dont fool yourself.

In other words we brought humanity back to the Europeans, we gave Europe so many things, Serdarot just explained it nicely.

[Serdarot]

1. the "western world" was persecuting the early Christians.

2. the Ancient Macedonians were the First Christians in Europe

1+2= the "western world" was persecuting Ancient Macedonians + other Christians


SOM:

you should know that the Romans had toalets and canalization. They probably got it from the Ancient Macedonians.

and as far i know, the Turkish Amam´s (public baths) between the canalisation, the cold and the warm water, also had toilets...

as far i know, the "western world" should be in eternal gratitude to the Turks and the Arabs, couse mostly those 2 cultures saved the achievements made by our Ancient Ancestors

Medicine books / knowledge, Aristotels works and many other books, were translated from Arab into Latin or into "greek", and later translated to the ancestors of the modern west-european languages

get some more information about the period of Arab and Turkish "domination" in Europe, specialy about the Arabs in Al-(v)Andaluz and the Turks

part of the "primitive muslims" picture, projected through the "western world", is just a bs like the greek myth ^^

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

That doesn't exactly qualify the term 'Turkish system', does it? That sort of 'system' which included education for young rulers in the making, etc was already in existence well before the Turks arrived in the Balkans and Anatolia.

Nope, it wasn't exactly like that. In the Turkish system, young rulers was being taken from the palace and given to the scholars in to another city and then getting education `till their father(king) dies. It was like today`s boarding schools and like janissary system of that era.

The Vatican on its own hardly counts as the whole western world. I think you're referring to some more extreme examples which may have been common in some areas but certainly would not be the norm across the whole western world.

I think you need to remember some basic facts about medieval Europe. Yes, Vatican meant "everything" for whole western Europe `till reform and the born of protestants in Germany. Pope was simply the ruler of whole Europe except the places under Turkish domain. Even after the reform era, pope still reigned supreme in most of Europe `till the end of renaissance. So, the filth, diseases, ignorance was in whole western Europe.

I didn't even give all extreme examples. Did you know that in the 2nd crusade, sometime around early 12th century Latins even ate the Turkish children in Antakya(Antioch)??? Yes it`s true and known fact cuz they even sent a letter to the Pope and asked if it would be OK to eat Turks, sin or not!!! So, they were even OK with cannibalism.

Lol, who had toilets in that era, Onur?

Serdarot beat me for that answer but SOM, you better come to Turkey next summer and i show you 2500 year old toilets and canalization systems here from early Roman and Persian era and yes, there was toilets in whole Ottoman era too. Also everyone had an opportunity to do basic cleaning and even advance spa care(hamams). You know, there are hamams built in 14-15th century in Balkans.

On the other hand, French people was still shitting in pots and throwing it outta window `till early 19th century or late 18th century. They were also getting bath maybe once in a year or two. Not with clean water either, in some kind of washtub instead.


So, while alexander the great was using toilets and had canalization system in antiquity and even had hamam like place in Persia, Louis XVII in France didn't have those in 18th century!!! Also, the picture of "primitive muslims" exists only for late 200 years. Before that, western world was "primitive" since antiquity, `till Sumerians of 5000 BC.

[Serdarot]

it is the same system, "they are primitive", "they are barbarians", "they are unbelievers", "let baptize them or kill them"...

used from the "democratic" Ancient Greeks, up to the nowadays Americans

today they use the word "terrorist" or simply they "want to spread the values of the democracy"

At least Aleksander was honest, he wrote to Darius III Kodoman that he simply wanted to rule with the Persian Empire

Btw, i am also proud on him couse he tried to make fusion between the 2 cultures, without the "primitive" crap.

Only the idiot greeks are still jerking on some idiotic stories that Aleks wanted to destroy Persia couse they were Barbarians, drn drn, bla bla...

In their ignorance, they forget that Aleksandeer received the Persian Ambasadors in his youth, and was enough clever to ask the right questions to make his own conclusions who and what were the Persians.

btw, SOM, you might not like the art how i express myself, but that doesn´t mean i don´t know what i write

i also don´t like the way how you express yourself, but that does not effects the truth and the knowledge in most of yur posts.

[George S.]

Serdarot good points,the greeks only know half the story that alexander according to them simply wanted to destroy the persian empire.That is not true as the people were happier than before as alexander did not beleive in slavery whereas the greeks did.The macedonians wanted to conquer the world but not to enslave the people.He gave them religious freedom
& he ebncouraged inter marriage of macedonians & persians.So the greeks don't have an inkling of what alexander was doing & trying to accomplish.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by George S.

Serdarot good points,the greeks only know half the story that alexander according to them simply wanted to destroy the persian empire.

This is just a modern conception also adopted by modern Greeks of today. We have a lot of monuments in Turkey which shows cultural interaction and mutual cooperation between Persians and ancient Greeks from pre-Alexander era and after Alexander, ofc this interaction has been increased a lot.

So, ancient Greeks was perfectly fine with cultural interaction and thats how they produced and developed their culture. It`s the modern Greeks who aren't like this. It is the post renaissance western European conception of Greek world who indoctrinated this ethno-centric and ego-centric neo-Greek philosophy. In reality, this new neo-Greek conception contradicts the philosophy of ancient Greeks who mostly had lived in harmony with other cultures.

Besides that, we already know that modern Greeks have absolutely no relation with the ancient one.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Onur

Nope, it wasn't exactly like that. In the Turkish system, young rulers was being taken from the palace and given to the scholars in to another city and then getting education `till their father(king) dies. It was like today`s boarding schools and like janissary system of that era.

Onur, such examples are hardly unique, and in my opinion, don't warrant a label such as the 'Turkish system' because it is misleading, ie; it sounds as thought the Turks invented such practices, when in actual fact, most were adopted during their westward travels.

I think you need to remember some basic facts about medieval Europe. Yes, Vatican meant "everything" for whole western Europe `till reform and the born of protestants in Germany. Pope was simply the ruler of whole Europe except the places under Turkish domain. Even after the reform era, pope still reigned supreme in most of Europe `till the end of renaissance. So, the filth, diseases, ignorance was in whole western Europe.

That doesn't corroborate your generalisation. There is no evidence that the whole of western Europe had adopted such extreme practices.

I didn't even give all extreme examples. Did you know that in the 2nd crusade, sometime around early 12th century Latins even ate the Turkish children in Antakya(Antioch)??? Yes it`s true and known fact cuz they even sent a letter to the Pope and asked if it would be OK to eat Turks, sin or not!!! So, they were even OK with cannibalism.

You seem to be selective in your examples for the purpose of magnifying a particular stigma resulting from extreme religious practices by the Vatican and outrageous behaviour by Crusaders during wartime. There is little with regard to the actions of commoners in western Europe.

......there was toilets in whole Ottoman era too.

Where, in Topkapi palace? Come on Onur, let's not get ahead of ourselves here, when was the last time you visited some villages in the Balkans to see how efficient their canal system is? It's a joke in many areas - and that is a direct remnant from the Ottoman period (perpetuated by subsequent idiot governments from Yugoslavia and others).

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Serdarot

btw, SOM, you might not like the art how i express myself, but that doesn´t mean i don´t know what i write

i also don´t like the way how you express yourself, but that does not effects the truth and the knowledge in most of yur posts.

Serdarot, I never implied that you don't know how to write. I would be monumentally happier if you could corroborate many of the things you say with some logic and sources, rather than making claims and failing to subsequently back them up (like Iljov does). For example, you started a thread about Russian sources concerning Macedonia, you followed up with attachments, links, sources, etc. More of that style.