Slave Mentality

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  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8530

    #31
    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
    Democracy in action.
    This forum is not a democracy and never claimed to be. Another comprehension problem well demonstrated.
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      #32
      Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
      This forum is not a democracy and never claimed to be. Another comprehension problem well demonstrated.
      I never claimed that this forum claimed to be a democracy.

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8530

        #33
        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
        I never claimed that this forum claimed to be a democracy.
        Then why would you make such a stupid and irrelevant comment such as "democracy in action" unless you felt some justification in doing so? Oh that's right, because you're Victor Sinadinoski!
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • vicsinad
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 2337

          #34
          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
          Then why would you make such a stupid and irrelevant comment such as "democracy in action" unless you felt some justification in doing so? Oh that's right, because you're Victor Sinadinoski!
          I'm just pointing out how someone can claim so much about democracy and natural/inalienable rights in an original post, and then use his own discretion to move/delete posts that he perceives are irrelevant. Talk about shutting down freedom of speech and thought! No better way to direct the conversation how one sees fit then to reserve the power to suppress speech when it becomes counter to his goals.

          Sure, the rules are to not to stray off topic too much. I understand the necessity of those rules, otherwise we'd be talking about SDSM, how people are hypocrites, idiots, and incapable of comprehending... rather than talking only about substantive issues.

          Glad you know my name.

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8530

            #35
            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            I'm just pointing out how someone can claim so much about democracy and natural/inalienable rights in an original post, and then use his own discretion to move/delete posts that he perceives are irrelevant. Talk about shutting down freedom of speech and thought! No better way to direct the conversation how one sees fit then to reserve the power to suppress speech when it becomes counter to his goals.

            Sure, the rules are to not to stray off topic too much. I understand the necessity of those rules, otherwise we'd be talking about SDSM, how people are hypocrites, idiots, and incapable of comprehending... rather than talking only about substantive issues.

            Glad you know my name.
            Victor, while freedom of speech is an inalienable right, its not an inalienable right to post on this forum in and of itself - it really is a privilege. I know that you are confused as to what actually constitutes inalienable rights and have perverted the ones you are aware of, but no need to create even greater confusion by instilling your own personal contradictions, hypocrisy and made up "facts" which you are unable to substantiate.

            Democracy on an internet forum could not be more irrelevant and it is beyond me why you would even bring the concept up as a forum does not constitute a system of governance by any stretch of the imagination. But if you are so keen on such an experiment, you might be interested in Wikipedia, where you can even vote on what constitutes "truth".

            So far, you have demonstrated that you have a personal taste for Serbian culture, that you consider Egej a "legitimate" Greek entity, an inability to comprehend simple sentences or construct your own in an articulate manner, a tendency to make up "facts" without being able to substantiate them, and hypocrisy and contradiction between your views on Macedonians from RoM and Egej, respectively. It is because of these issues that you have the stench of SDSM all over you - self-serving, incoherent and happy to not only be governed by a slave mentality yourself, but encourage others to do the same.
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              #36
              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
              Victor, while freedom of speech is an inalienable right, its not an inalienable right to post on this forum in and of itself - it really is a privilege. I know that you are confused as to what actually constitutes inalienable rights and have perverted the ones you are aware of, but no need to create even greater confusion by instilling your own personal contradictions, hypocrisy and made up "facts" which you are unable to substantiate.

              Democracy on an internet forum could not be more irrelevant and it is beyond me why you would even bring the concept up as a forum does not constitute a system of governance by any stretch of the imagination. But if you are so keen on such an experiment, you might be interested in Wikipedia, where you can even vote on what constitutes "truth".

              So far, you have demonstrated that you have a personal taste for Serbian culture, that you consider Egej a "legitimate" Greek entity, an inability to comprehend simple sentences or construct your own in an articulate manner, a tendency to make up "facts" without being able to substantiate them, and hypocrisy and contradiction between your views on Macedonians from RoM and Egej, respectively. It is because of these issues that you have the stench of SDSM all over you - self-serving, incoherent and happy to not only be governed by a slave mentality yourself, but encourage others to do the same.
              It is beyond me that you would actually think that I actually think a forum, which is owned and operated by someone else, could constitute a democarcy. However, you have demonstrated the stench of SDSM and your aversion to freedom of thought and speech, first and foremost by reserving the power to move/delete posts that are not relevant...with no clear guidelines as to when something trespasses from the relevancy arena into the irrelevancy arena. Further, even if you had established them, you break your own rules in your initial post by claiming three times that what you had just written was irrelevant, yet you wrote it anyway. Thus, you yourself are no short of contradictions and hypocritical tendencies. Then of course there is your degrading use of the English language, combined with your inabilities to comprehend meanings of words and sentences within statement...such as trying to highlight the word "manifest" while leaving out whose manifestations and what those manifestations resulted in.

              Then there is your persistent drive (this may be due to your feebleness) to write misleading, inaccurate, and wholly false claims. And then fail to substantiate. You stated that in the United States that the body of citizens is the sovereign and the ultimate political power resides in them. I don't even know where to start with that claim -- but I'll start with the fact that the people who are born in this county have NO choice (for at least the first 18 years of their lives, and due to many people's familial obligations and financial states, their whole lives because leaving is impracticable) in deciding the Supreme Law of the Land...the Constitution. People have to accept the Constitution; it's a contract in which they had no say in making, yet are obliged to follow all of its stipulations and clauses. There goes freedom of choice and the right to contract...a slave to a document that was predominantly written 220 years ago. Isn't self-determination an inalienable right? Then why are white, male property owners of 220 years ago (no more than 15% of the population in 1790) determining the Supreme rules by which 100% of the population lives in today?

              Additionally, Americans do not choose their leader...their President. The electoral system does that, and the electorate can align with the popular vote or not -- it's up to them. Who are the electorate? I can tell you: not your "average" person.

              Why is America being spotlighted as a shining example as a country that upholds inalienable rights? Is it because in the 1970s they finally stopped sterilizing hundreds of thousands of people because they were deemed either too dumb or too ugly? (Though, today a judge still has the right to allow a parent to have their children sterilized...I love property rights!) Or was it because just last year gays were not allowed to identify as gay in the military without losing their job (imagine living in a place where identifying with one group of people, or being who you are, could cause you to lose your job!). Or is it because to run most campaigns on the state or federal level you cannot succeed unless you have millions of dollars (huh, again, what was that about the power residing in the citizens? oh yes, in America you have the opportunity to become rich, and thus the opportunity to hold some power).

              Or is it because the President has the power (and the Supreme Court supports this law even today) to detain groups of people based on something as simple as the shape of their eyes (think concentration camps and detention centers for Japanese people during World War 2) or based on their religious association and skin color (oh the benefits of the war on terror!). Imagine living in a place where it is legal to detain you based on your ethnicity, religion and skin color! Then we have the general notion of freedom -- America, 5% of the world's population but 25% of the world's prison population. Geez, either the rest of the countries in this world has a real difficult time containing their criminal elements, or America must love freedom so much that virtually any move you make can be criminal in one way or another. Or how about being put on FBI and Homeland Security watch-lists because of either the political candidate you support or because of the political organizations you associate with? Under American law that's perfectly legal today...so so much for freedom of association and freedom of speech.

              Then there is also the cost of education in this country -- the only way to get an education that will get you a diploma that will get you a job that will keep you from living in poverty is to have money, and lots of it. Access to education -- something most of the other "developed" countries know how to do better than freedom-loving and rights-protecting America. "Gosh, Americans in the 60s and 70s were scared of going to fight for their corporate masters, so we appeased them by eliminating the draft (not the ability for us to draft them) and had to find novel ways to keep our defenders of corporate interests massive and effective. We know, keep a number Americans uneducated, impoverished and hopeless...then wave the carrot of the benefits of the military in front of them...and then when they're done serving, abandon them and concentrate our efforts on finding more like them!" The drug laws and drug wars, the education system, political system, the court processes, the enforcement system...all these work in conjunction to serve not the majority of the people, but the financial, ideological and personal interests of the few.

              What was that about US upholding people's inalienable rights?

              Your qualifying statement that this doesn't happen in the vast majority of instances is completely misguided and blatantly misleading. It just shows your true slave-mentality. It is perpetual and continual, just like America's onslaught against the rights and freedoms of its citizens and the world's citizens. America's leaders and power-holders are just better at masking and masquerading than other nations' leaders.

              So when you claim that countries like Iran, North Korea and Russia are different because the power is concentrated in the few elite, you're forgetting that the same applies to the US federal system. Putting aside your misleading statements and false "facts", this is of utmost relevance to this topic...look at the implications we have. First, we have YOU as a slave to the notion that America is opposite to those countries where a)the power doesn't reside in the people; b) they don't uphold people's natural and inalienable rights and responsibilities; and c) the main goal is to perpetuate the power of the regime. America operates in the same manner today. Except for c, where the regime is a little broader..and extends any rich or powerful person willing to use the laws and political process to preserve their own power and wealth.

              Second, if a symptom of the slave mentality is support of oppressive regimes...well, you suffer from that symptom to the extent that those you accuse of suffering from it actually suffer from it...or perhaps even greater.


              This all speaks for itself...but so does your inability to refrain from incorporating, in any argument that you make, the words SDSM, Serbian, hypocrite, comprehension, contradictory, self-serving, incoherent, idiotic, etc. You must be really misinformed as to what "frank" and "civil" discourse entails.
              Last edited by vicsinad; 04-07-2012, 08:56 AM.

              Comment

              • ProMKD
                Member
                • Oct 2011
                • 367

                #37
                Holy mother of a post.... JESUS!! NOBODY READS POSTS THIS LONG!!! Go join the brian club!!!
                www.everythingmacedonia.com
                Support tourism to Macedonia!

                Comment

                • vicsinad
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2011
                  • 2337

                  #38
                  Originally posted by ProMKD View Post
                  Holy mother of a post.... JESUS!! NOBODY READS POSTS THIS LONG!!! Go join the brian club!!!
                  Are you referring to my post or Vangelovski's initial post? Would be cool if you were directing him to go to the brian club, too.

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #39
                    vicsinad, you're clearly not the poster boy for the USA.
                    Having said that, if USA citizens are slaves, then Macedonians are the slaves' pets.
                    Last edited by Risto the Great; 03-03-2017, 03:18 AM.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • razmkd
                      Junior Member
                      • Apr 2012
                      • 13

                      #40
                      Our name is macedonia

                      Our name is Macedonia - YouTube

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8530

                        #41
                        Victor, weren't you whining about creativity a few days ago? You are so unoriginal and juvenile that you basically have nothing left to say for yourself and had to plagiarise my post.

                        Let me remind you that it was YOU that introduced the concept of democracy in relation to the forum. Now, because you are unable to explain why (as usual) you act as if you didn't, though nobody should be surprised as this is characteristic of you - juvenile. I'm beginning to think that I'm conversing with a teenager. Further, not one of your posts have ever been moved or deleted, so the whine is premature and disingenuous at best.

                        Your reading of Rousseau, and Locke for that matter, is also juvenile, undeveloped and at the 'undergraduate' level (Do they have that term in the US?). Your understanding of its practical application oozes with inexperience in both life and politics - another indication that you are probably at the 'undergraduate' level with a wide-eyed and immature understanding of what you are actually reading.

                        What is most disturbing of all is that you equate the American political system with that of regimes in North Korea and Iran. This is, I think, partly a symptom of your obvious "leftist" and "progressive" views and partly a symptom of you never actually having even visited one of these countries. I can guarantee you, that as soon as you step off the plane at the airport, you will immediately recognise the vast differences. Though, knowing you, you may need to spend a few years in one of their Gulags... The fact that you even have the ability to express such idiotic views is a demonstration that your inalienable rights are not violated in the US and completely undermines your ill-founded and vacuous dribble. Comments such as these in North Korea and Iran could get you killed or sent to a prison camp for life.

                        While no one claimed that the US system (or any other western systems) is perfect, they are far superior to those that I mentioned in my first post. Another thought that has crossed my mind is that you may even be one of those 'occupy' protesters - complaining that your "rights" are being violated while actually freely exercising them! But, because of your "leftist" and "progressive" views, you probably actually think that an inalienable right includes "entitlement", and in particular, "entitlement" to other peoples' money and property. This is where you are sorely confused about what inalienable rights actually are and how far their limits extend - they are limited by OTHERS' inalienable rights and your own rights' corresponding responsibilities. I'm sure this is all new to you as your commentary on them to date has been quite wanting.

                        Finally, I never said anything about "civil" discourse. I said FRANK and HONEST. And there is nothing more frank and honest than telling you when you are being idiotic, hypocritical, contradictory, displaying a love for Serb culture and anti-Macedonian tenancies (on which you continue to avoid important questions, in particular, your view as to Egej being a "legitimate" Greek entity and how that logically impacts on their claims to the Macedonian identity). I will now have to add juvenile, plagiarist, unoriginal, underdeveloped intellectual rigour and completely inexperienced to the list.
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • vicsinad
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 2337

                          #42
                          Tom, maybe your downfall is that when you disagree with someone's views, you barely counter any substantial points? Instead, you fill the space with jargon and prose, throw in some insults and jabs, and then ramble on about one or two of the least-related statements to the central idea of someone's post. These aren't characteristics of someone who wants to discover truth; rather, they're characteristics of someone who wants his views to be right. These are issues that juveniles and undergraduates struggle with as they wade through their new-found freedom and independence upon entering University.

                          More than that, in order to mask your insecurities, you quickly claim that the person with whom you disagree is on some sort of intellectual level lower than yours. By doing so, you can justify your views as being right because, well, someone's views can't be right if you establish that person as an idiot from the onset. This is not being frank and honest --this is being arrogant and self-serving. My colleagues in the legal community would certainly be appalled at your approach to discourse and your management of disagreements. We generally lump your weaknesses in discussion with those of some struggling first-year law students, who for some reason or another were granted permission to continue their schooling. Those weaknesses generally stem from an inability to rationalize the thought process of the person with whom you disagree and not knowing when and how to view an issue from the other person's perspective. A consequence of this is that you are unable to meaningfully, completely, and logically respond to the other person's views. If you are unable or unwillingly to put yourself in another person's shoes, you'll probably never find a way to convince that person to try on your shoes.

                          I know some frank and honest lawyers and academics. The best ones succeed, and have succeeded, not because of how right they are, but because of how well they can understand the issue and from how many different angles they can perceive the issue. Only when you let go of the desire to be correct can you embrace the value of true knowledge attained through perceiving issues in the mindset of the professor, the student, the child and the beast. It's something we should have mastered by the time we left the teenage years behind, but it's something most people struggle with all their lives. The proper approach is to: make observations, then do an analysis of that data, and then conclude...and that's your answer, until new observations and methods pop up. Instead, most people are confined to: make an observation, induce an opinion, find observations that fit that opinion, and then conclude with your opinion...and stick with that opinion. If there is anything that perpetuates the slave-mentality, it's this...this desire to see things for how we want to see them rather than for how they actually are. I sense that intellectually you're probably at this point, but personally, probably not.

                          Before stating someone "cannot comprehend" an issue, those who succeed realize that they must (at least try their hardest to) restate and restate their original statement so that even a juvenile could not have misinterpreted or misunderstood what was being said. And if restating doesn't work, they utilize analogies, parallels, diagrams, and the such until their point is clear. If it doesn't happen, they disagree and move on, hoping to come back to the point later on with a different frame of mind. At worst, this takes additional time. But the benefits are wondrous.

                          When they're frank, they say: "this is not correct" or "these two statements contradict each other." They do not say: "you're an idiot" or "you're a hypocrite." No, they don't do that because they genuinely care about the value of the discussion and conversation and realize that in order to obtain their goals, they must completely understand the other side and the other side must completely understand them. They do not care about making some sort of statement about the other person's worth because instead of contributing, it takes from the discussion.

                          That, of course, distinguishes the major leagues from the minor leagues. Practice makes perfect, and I know with a little work, you will come to a realization that much of your approach to discussing issues is unfruitful and works contradictory to the goal of trying to progress the Macedonian Cause.

                          (On a delightful end note, this will be the last time I engage you on any personal level...hope to see you on another thread discussing actual issues without the added commentary.)

                          Comment

                          • FriendofMacedonia
                            Junior Member
                            • Feb 2012
                            • 57

                            #43
                            Tom, maybe your downfall is that when you disagree with someone's views, you barely counter any substantial points? Instead, you fill the space with jargon and prose, throw in some insults and jabs, and then ramble on about one or two of the least-related statements to the central idea of someone's post. These aren't characteristics of someone who wants to discover truth; rather, they're characteristics of someone who wants his views to be right. These are issues that juveniles and undergraduates struggle with as they wade through their new-found freedom and independence upon entering University.
                            Also, when he tells you you're wrong he asks you to post sources. When you do, he asks you to post more. When you do, he tells you to read another thread about a similar topic instead of addressing your argument directly and having a discussion.

                            Wack.

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8530

                              #44
                              Victor, more plagiarism I see. Maybe you should try and raise some actual substantive points in which one can engage you on rather than making pathetic anti-Macedonian claims such as Egej is a "legitimate" Greek entity and then "backing" them up with wild and unsubstantiated "evidence" that you may or may not have read in Risto Stefov's articles.

                              You're a waste of space and below anyone's intellectual level on this forum (except maybe friendofMacedonia's, whom I believe you share certain loyalties with), not just mine. To attempt to actually engage into substantive discussion with you would be impossible, unless one performed a lobotomy on themselves first.
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

                              • Onur
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2010
                                • 2389

                                #45
                                Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                                Tom, maybe your downfall is that when you disagree with someone's views, you barely counter any substantial points? Instead, you fill the space with jargon and prose, throw in some insults and jabs, and then ramble on about one or two of the least-related statements to the central idea of someone's post.

                                More than that, in order to mask your insecurities, you quickly claim that the person with whom you disagree is on some sort of intellectual level lower than yours. By doing so, you can justify your views as being right because, well, someone's views can't be right if you establish that person as an idiot from the onset. This is not being frank and honest --this is being arrogant and self-serving.
                                Originally posted by FriendofMacedonia View Post
                                Also, when he tells you you're wrong he asks you to post sources. When you do, he asks you to post more. When you do, he tells you to read another thread about a similar topic instead of addressing your argument directly and having a discussion.
                                I agree to both of you. I saw many users of the forum getting attacked by Vangelovski in the past for no proper reason, so you are not the first. He has some kind of urge to attack anyone who doesn't share his worldview, regardless of what.

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