Who were the Sons of Javan?

[George S.]

There is a distinction between macedonians and greeks.Macedonians were called KITTIM.
The sons of Japheth: Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech
and Tiras. ... Three descendants of Gomer are listed and four of Javan. ...
1. Now they were the grandchildren of Noah, in honor of whom names were imposed on the nations by those that first seized upon them. Japhet, the son of Noah, had seven sons: they inhabited so, that, beginning at the mountains Taurus and Amanus, they proceeded along Asia, as far as the river Tansis, and along Europe to Cadiz; and settling themselves on the lands which they light upon, which none had inhabited before, they called the nations by their own names. For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites. Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians. Now as to Javan and Madai, the sons of Japhet; from Madai came the Madeans, who are called Medes, by the Greeks; but from Javan, Ionia, and all the Grecians, are derived. Thobel founded the Thobelites, who are now called Iberes; and the Mosocheni were founded by Mosoch; now they are Cappadocians. There is also a mark of their ancient denomination still to be shown; for there is even now among them a city called Mazaca, which may inform those that are able to understand, that so was the entire nation once called. Thiras also called those whom he ruled over Thirasians; but the Greeks changed the name into Thracians. And so many were the countries that had the children of Japhet for their inhabitants. Of the three sons of Gomer, Aschanax founded the Aschanaxians, who are now called by the Greeks Rheginians. So did Riphath found the Ripheans, now called Paphlagonians; and Thrugramma the Thrugrammeans, who, as the Greeks resolved, were named Phrygians. Of the three sons of Javan also, the son of Japhet, Elisa gave name to the Eliseans, who were his subjects; they are now the Aeolians. Tharsus to the Tharsians, for so was Cilicia of old called; the sign of which is this, that the noblest city they have, and a metropolis also, is Tarsus, the tau being by change put for the theta. Cethimus possessed the island Cethima: it is now called Cyprus; and from that it is that all islands, and the greatest part of the sea-coasts, are named Cethim by the Hebrews: and one city there is in Cyprus that has been able to preserve its denomination; it has been called Citius by those who use the language of the Greeks, and has not, by the use of that dialect, escaped the name of Cethim. And so many nations have the children and grandchildren of Japhet possessed. Now when I have premised somewhat, which perhaps the Greeks do not know, I will return and explain what I have omitted; for such names are pronounced here after the manner of the Greeks, to please my readers; for our own country language does not so pronounce them: but the names in all cases are of one and the same ending; for the name we here pronounce Noeas, is there Noah, and in every case retains the same termination.

Ezekiel's Discourse
... wares. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy traffickers: they traded
the persons of men and vessels of brass for thy merchandise. ...
/.../various/select masterpieces of biblical literature/vii ezekiels discourse.htm

Appendix 1 Massecheth Middoth
... on the south-east the chamber of the shew-bread; on the north-east, there the Asmoneans
deposited the stones of the altar which the King of Javan had defiled ...
/.../edersheim/sketches of jewish social life/appendix 1 massecheth middoth.htm

Demonstration v. --Of Wars.
... [774] It is the kingdom of the children of Javan, who are children of Japhet. For
the children of Javan came in against the kingdom of their brethren. ...
/.../aphrahat/aphrahat select demonstrations/demonstration v of wars.htm

Jewish Chronology Continued.
... Egyptians, and Greeks, for we must bear in mind that the father of these Gentiles
was born from this Japheth, [1072] and received the name Javan, and became ...
/.../the refutation of all heresies/chapter xxvii jewish chronology continued.htm

The Promise.
... Some few, the children of Javan, found a home in the fair isles of the Mediterranean,
but the greater part were wild horsemen in Northern Asia and Europe. ...
//christianbookshelf.org/yonge/the chosen people/lesson i the promise.htm

Hope for the Heathen
... to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off." Isaiah 66:19. "How beautiful upon
the mountains. Are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings,. ...
/.../white/the story of prophets and kings/chapter 31 hope for the.htm

[Endnotes]
... Jobab. ". JAPHETH. Gomer, Magog. Madai. Javan, Tubal. Meshech. Tiras. Ashkenaz,
Elishah, Riphath, Tarshish, Togarmah. Kittim, Dodanim. ...
//christianbookshelf.org/killen/the ancient church/endnotes.htm

The Greek Versions as Aids to Biblical Study.
... 'vy vrchvvt, Wellh.), 1 Regn. iv.21. Javan, he Hellas, Isaiah 66:19 (cf. Joel
3:6). Jehovah-nissi, Kurios kataphuge mou, Exodus 17:15. ...
/.../chapter iv the greek versions.htm

[George S.]

Bible Search

Genesis 10:4 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittites ...
... The descendants of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim. ... The
sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. ...
//biblehub.com/genesis/10-4.htm - 16k

1 Chronicles 1:7 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the ...
... The descendants of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim. ... The
sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim. ...
//biblehub.com/1_chronicles/1-7.htm - 17k

Numbers 24:24 Ships will come from the shores of Cyprus; they will ...
... But ships shall come from Kittim and shall afflict Asshur and
Eber; and he too shall come to utter destruction ...
//biblehub.com/numbers/24-24.htm - 18k

Daniel 11:30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and ...
... For ships of Kittim shall come against him, and he shall be afraid and withdraw,
and shall turn back and be enraged and take action against the holy covenant. ...
//biblehub.com/daniel/11-30.htm - 19k

Ezekiel 27:6 Of oaks from Bashan they made your oars; of cypress ...
... Of the oaks of Bashan have they made your oars; the company of Ashurites have made
your planks of inlaid ivory, brought out of the coasts of Kittim. ...
//biblehub.com/ezekiel/27-6.htm - 17k

Isaiah 23:1 A prophecy against Tyre: Wail, you ships of Tarshish! ...
... Wail, you ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house,
no entering in: from the land of Kittim it is revealed to them. ...
//biblehub.com/isaiah/23-1.htm - 18k

Isaiah 23:12 He said, "No more of your reveling, Virgin Daughter ...
... And he said, You shall no more rejoice, O you oppressed virgin, daughter of Sidon:
arise, pass over to Kittim; there also shall you have no rest. ...
//biblehub.com/isaiah/23-12.htm - 18k

Jeremiah 2:10 Cross over to the coasts of Cyprus and look, send to ...
... "For cross to the coastlands of Kittim and see, And send to Kedar and observe
closely And see if there has been such a thing as this! ...
//biblehub.com/jeremiah/2-10.htm - 18k

[Constellation]

George, your posts do not state Kittim is Macedonia.

[George S.]

I have seen a map of kittim clearly showing Macedonia. The Maccabees calls it Macedonia.Alexander is known to be the king of javan.Or the king of kittim.
The Kittim

In Gen 10:4 and 1 Chron 1:7 the Kittim are identified as the sons of Javan, hence grandsons of Noah. Javan is thought to represent Greece and the Greeks, including Asia Minor. The name Yawan and Yawanim is translated Greece in Isa 66:19; Ezek 27:13; Dan 8:21; 10:20; Joel 3:6. The name occurs not only in the Semitic dialects, but in Sanskrit. It is found in Assyrian linguistic relics as Yavnan or Yunan, as well as on Egyptian monuments as Uoinim, Ionians, thus showing that the designation was anciently in common use throughout the Near East. Although clearly assigned to the Ionians of Asia Minor this name seems to have been also given to the Macedonians, Achaians, and Baeotians, all understood as part of the Greeks. (Note here the linguistic similarity between the well know traditional Ionians that has come down to us through the Indo-European languages, and the Yawan of the Semitic.)



Since the Kittim are the sons of Javan they would then be part of Greece. 1 Maccabees 1:1 states, Alexander, son of Philip the Macedonian, who came from the land of Kittim. The name Kittim is often understood to mean exclusively Cyprus but this is false. The Kittim are found in Isa 23:1, 12 and Daniel 11:30, where the name is translated Cyprus in most versions. However in these prophecies Kittim does not refer to Cyprus. See discussion below.

Josephus in his Antiquities 11 states:

Cethimus possessed the island Cethima: it is now called Cyprus; and from that it is that all islands, and the greatest part of the sea-coasts, are named Cethim by the Hebrews: and one city there is in Cyprus that has been able to preserve its denomination; it has been called Citius by those who use the language of the Greeks, and has not, by the use of that dialect, escaped the name of Cethim.

Note that the word Cethim should be pronounced as Kethim. English transformed the K's into C's centuries ago.

Josephus may not have had his historical facts correct. The plural termination denotes a people who migrated from Phoenicia to Cyprus and founded the town of Citium (Kitium), the modern Chitti. Cyprus was in close relations with Tyre, (Isa 23:1,12; Ezek 27:6), as can also be seen from Phoenician inscriptions still extant. We must remember that Phoenicia was Semitic, linguistically close cousin to the Hebrew people. The name Citium (Kitium) was borrowed from the Semitic Kittim. Josephus understood that the Hebrews also applied the name to sea coasts along the northern shores of the Mediterranean, not only to the Greek homelands, but to all those regions colonized by the Greeks.

In Numbers 24:23-24 Kittim has a more serious meaning. The prophet Balaam gave a pronouncement that carries implications for us today:

And he took up his parable and said, Alas, who shall live when God does this?

And ships from the coast of Kittim shall afflict Asshur and shall afflict Eber, and also he shall perish forever.

If Balaam gave his prophecy, and if it was recorded prior to the breakup of the Kingdom around 700 BC, we would expect use of the terms Asshur and Eber, terms familiar to the people of those times. The use of these names dates the prophecy.
So CON you are WRONG AGAIN!

[Constellation]

There is a distinction between macedonians and greeks.Macedonians were called KITTIM.

And then you quote this in your post:

Since the Kittim are the sons of Javan they would then be part of Greece

This would mean that Macedonia=Kittim=Greece. Care to explain this?

I have seen a map of kittim clearly showing Macedonia. The Maccabees calls it Macedonia.Alexander is known to be the king of javan.Or the king of kittim.

Yes, the book of 1 Maccabees states that Alexander came from the land of Kittim, but Kittim does not mean Macedonia, it means Cyprus. The original meaning was the island of Cyprus, but later took on a broader meaning, including Rome and Macedonia. Thus, when 1 Maccabees was written, Kittim took on a broader meaning, which included the Aegean territories, including Macedonia.

[George S.]

i can see how everything has aslant on it a greek slant.The flood was around 4389 bc that's much earlier than the greeks arrived around 3000 bc on the greek peninsular.The only people around would be really Macedonians,pelasgians,The hellenes came around 2800 bc,Thats when the greeks got ther alphabet.So there would have been Minoans,pelasgians mycinians.So putting on the greek identity when the greeks weren't even around.There certainly been Macedonians called kittim around.ot the Cyprus you mentioned.They say that cypress and the surrounds might have been the atlantis that so much been written.4389 bc the greeks were not around as achaens or hellenes coming 1500 years after the flood.The timeline would have solved your problem Also looking at the ancient maps will show kittim Macedonia not Cyprus as the location.If Macedonians look like they been around for eeons before the greeks so Macedonia can trace herself past prehistoric times even before the noahs flood.Con I bet you never considered this you are still wrong.I just proved to you Macedonians were pre flood as to what they been called??After the flood kittim???you don't know for sure.

[Constellation]

Originally Posted by George S.

i can see how everything has aslant on it a greek slant.The flood was around 4389 bc that's much earlier than the greeks arrived around 3000 bc on the greek peninsular.The only people around would be really Macedonians,pelasgians,The hellenes came around 2800 bc,Thats when the greeks got ther alphabet.So there would have been Minoans,pelasgians mycinians.So putting on the greek identity when the greeks weren't even around.There certainly been Macedonians called kittim around.ot the Cyprus you mentioned.They say that cypress and the surrounds might have been the atlantis that so much been written.4389 bc the greeks were not around as achaens or hellenes coming 1500 years after the flood.The timeline would have solved your problem Also looking at the ancient maps will show kittim Macedonia not Cyprus as the location.If Macedonians look like they been around for eeons before the greeks so Macedonia can trace herself past prehistoric times even before the noahs flood.Con I bet you never considered this you are still wrong.I just proved to you Macedonians were pre flood as to what they been called??After the flood kittim???you don't know for sure.

Thank you George.

The problem is that all the pre-flood people were wiped out.

[George S.]

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGham.htm
http://www.bible-history.com/maps/2-table-nations-3.jpg
there are two maps when i find the one i will put it up ok.

[Constellation]

Originally Posted by George S.

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGham.htm
http://www.bible-history.com/maps/2-table-nations-3.jpg
there are two maps when i find the one i will put it up ok.

The links are no good.

The immediate descendants of Japheth were seven in number, and are represented by the nations designated Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Mesech, and Tiras; or, roughly, the Armenians, Lydians, Medes, Greeks, Tibarenians, and Moschians, the last, Tiras, remaining still obscure. The sons of Gomer (Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah) were all settled in the West Asian tract; while the sons of Javan (Elisah, Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim or Rodanim) occupied the Mediterranean coast and the adjacent islands.

The author identifies "Javan" as "Greek".

And

4. Seven Sons of Japheth (see map below):
1. Javan (Greece, Romans, Romance -- French, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese)
2. Magog (Scythians, Slavs, Russians, Bulgarians, Bohemians, Poles, Slovaks, Croatians)

George, you have to understand that in Western Civilization, including all Bible commentaries, the ancient Macedonians were part of the Hellenic world (Javan).

[Bill77]

Originally Posted by Constellation

George, you have to understand that in Western Civilization, including all Bible commentaries, the ancient Macedonians were part of the Hellenic world (Javan)

What do you mean by "Part of the Hellenic world"?

And point out where in the Bible it suggests anything of the sort.