Church St.Nedela in Bitola inscription - real or fake?

[DraganOfStip]

I don't know if this has been debated elsewhere,but I'll start a new thread anyway,admins can join both threads if exist .

Bulgarian propaganda among the Macedonian population exists since the forming of the Bulgarian kingdom.They deny the existence of a Macedonian nation and language till this very day.I'm not going into specifics about their methods and means,but I'd like to question one of their most exploited "evidences" about the "Bulgarism" of the Macedonians.There's (or is it?) an inscription of the St.Nedela church in Bitola,allegedly dated 1863 that includes the word "Bulgarians" referring to our people:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...on_Bitolya.JPG

Now,Bulgarians claim Macedonians tried to erase the specific word from the tablet but letters can still be seen.Any info on the authenticity of the inscription?

[George S.]

I would like to agree that this sort of naming us as bulgarians exists in bitola because there is peopl's stupidity to capitulate as bulgarians because they are nothing but slaves to others.
I would personally like to get hold of these people who think they can decide for the city of bitola that even though we declare we are macedonians they declare for us that we are bulgarians.Are they doing us a bifg favour.I allready had a taste of this form of baptism by some idiot changing the names of people in the matcna area.If my parents names ends in ski & ska then how is it that some two bit idiot can put an ov on my name as if i'm bulgarian in the maticna records.They have done it to an entire city of bitola.They should string them by the balls.

[TojSum]

Dragan, yes there is such inscription (you give us the link of the inscription) but to use this inscrption to proof that Macedonians are bulgars its idiotic (but from bulgars you can expect everything ) because:

1. In that time Bitola is under jurisdiction of Bulgarian church and the of Church St.Nedela is established and erected on October 13, 1863 during his preosveshtenstvo Mr. Benedict Byzantine, from whom the church was consecrated.
So when bulgarians build a church what do you expect to write

2. The inscription below it reads "Bulgarian educators from Preslav Year 1875"

Bulgarian educators????? ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) from Preslav (do you know where is preslav?) ))

I think everything is clear here.

3. The inscription it self:

(Original, bulgarian): Тоя светї храмъ на прѣсветая и славна великомѫченица Недѣля се издїгнѫ отъ основание съ иждивението на Българитѣ при владикованието на Вїсокопрѣосвещенния г-нъ г-нъ Венедиктъ Византийский който и я освети Битоля 13 октомври 1863 год.

(Macedonian): Овој свет храм на пресветата и славна великомаченца Недела се издигна од основание со помош на бугарите за време на владикувањето на високопреосвештениот г-н г-н Венедикт Византиски кој ја освети. Битола 13 октомври 1863.

(English): This holy church of St. Martir Nedelya was erected with the contribution of the Bulgarians under the diocese of his holy grace Benedict of Byzantium who sanctified it in Bitolya on 13th October 1863.

I realy can't understand where they see the proof???

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by TojSum

Dragan, yes there is such inscription (you give us the link of the inscription) but to use this inscrption to proof that Macedonians are bulgars its idiotic (but from bulgars you can expect everything ) because:

1. In that time Bitola is under jurisdiction of Bulgarian church and the of Church St.Nedela is established and erected on October 13, 1863 during his preosveshtenstvo Mr. Benedict Byzantine, from whom the church was consecrated.
So when bulgarians build a church what do you expect to write

2. The inscription below it reads "Bulgarian educators from Preslav Year 1875"

Bulgarian educators????? ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) from Preslav (do you know where is preslav?) ))

I think everything is clear here.

3. The inscription it self:

(Original, bulgarian): Тоя светї храмъ на прѣсветая и славна великомѫченица Недѣля се издїгнѫ отъ основание съ иждивението на Българитѣ при владикованието на Вїсокопрѣосвещенния г-нъ г-нъ Венедиктъ Византийский който и я освети Битоля 13 октомври 1863 год.

(Macedonian): Овој свет храм на пресветата и славна великомаченца Недела се издигна од основание со помош на бугарите за време на владикувањето на високопреосвештениот г-н г-н Венедикт Византиски кој ја освети. Битола 13 октомври 1863.

(English): This holy church of St. Martir Nedelya was erected with the contribution of the Bulgarians under the diocese of his holy grace Benedict of Byzantium who sanctified it in Bitolya on 13th October 1863.

I realy can't understand where they see the proof???

They see the proof in

1.It says "Bulgarians" in a church in Macedonia
2.It's written in Bulgarian,and the church is in Macedonia
3.The specific word "Bulgarians" has been scratched and blurred,they see this as an attempt to erase the "evidence" from the tablet.

Now,everyone knows that at the time churches in Macedonia were under the jurisdiction of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church,but every time they disregard this fact.And the attempt to erase the inscription "Bulgarians" is seen as an act of evidence destruction by the post-WWII communist authorities to "create" a Macedonian identity.Nevertheless,the explanation you provided (which I totally agree with) will be seen as an attempt to twist history in our favor.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by TojSum

The inscription below it reads "Bulgarian educators from Preslav Year 1875"

Can you please post a picture of that inscription which refers to 1875? I can't see it on the link.

Originally Posted by DraganOfStip

Bulgarian propaganda among the Macedonian population exists since the forming of the Bulgarian kingdom.

It existed prior to the Russian creation of a Bulgarian state.

Now,Bulgarians claim Macedonians tried to erase the specific word from the tablet but letters can still be seen.

So some Macedonian (allegedly) tried to scribble out a word, big deal. Even if that were true, it is a rarity compared to the several historical and cultural manipulations carried out by some Bulgars against Macedonians. There's a subject worthy of its own thread, if one doesn't already exist.

Nevertheless,the explanation you provided (which I totally agree with) will be seen as an attempt to twist history in our favor.

Why would it been seen as "twisting history" if it is accompanied by a logical explanation? On the one hand you say that you "totally agree" with the Macedonian argument, but then on the other you don't consider it plausible enough for others to believe. Strange.

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Can you please post a picture of that inscription which refers to 1875? I can't see it on the link.

It existed prior to the Russian creation of a Bulgarian state.

So some Macedonian (allegedly) tried to scribble out a word, big deal. Even if that were true, it is a rarity compared to the several historical and cultural manipulations carried out by some Bulgars against Macedonians. There's a subject worthy of its own thread, if one doesn't already exist.

Why would it been seen as "twisting history" if it is accompanied by a logical explanation? On the one hand you say that you "totally agree" with the Macedonian argument, but then on the other you don't consider it plausible enough for others to believe. Strange.

No,I meant from a Bulgarian perspective they'll see it as an attempt of "discrediting the obvious",I think you misunderstood my words.What I was trying to say is that because Bulgarians consider us and our language as Bulgarian,anything in Macedonia prior 1945 that relates us to Bulgaria is an "evidence" of our "Bulgarian" roots for them,so this one from 1863 referring to the people that build the church as Bulgarians (and this is in Bitola,Macedonia) comes as the 'icing on the cake' for the tatars,and they're parading this image on their nationalistic websites,even display it on Wikipedia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by DraganOfStip

No,I meant from a Bulgarian perspective they'll see it as an attempt of "discrediting the obvious",I think you misunderstood my words.

I understood your words as you wrote them. You said nothing about a 'Bulgarian' perspective. Perhaps next time you will be a little more clear. I know it must appear that I am being rather blunt with you, Dragan, but my intention is not to offend you, only to understand your perspective better. And to be honest, a number of your posts and questions don't really seem that transparent, it's almost as if they're being written by a Bulgar pretending to be Macedonian. Again, no pun intended, that is just the way it appears. We have had many pretenders come and go and my response to you has this in consideration. I hope you show otherwise.

What I was trying to say is that because Bulgarians consider us and our language as Bulgarian,anything in Macedonia prior 1945 that relates us to Bulgaria is an "evidence" of our "Bulgarian" roots for them.......

You're preaching to the choir mate, we already know how Bulgars manipulate history against Macedonians. Unless you're bringing logical counter-arguments to the table, there is no need to keep spreading their filth here.

....they're parading this image on their nationalistic websites,even display it on Wikipedia.

They parade all sorts of lies and manipulations, there is nothing special about this case. Why do you keep presenting the arguments of our enemies without our counter-arguments, given that you're already aware of what they are?

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

I understood your words as you wrote them. You said nothing about a 'Bulgarian' perspective. Perhaps next time you will be a little more clear. I know it must appear that I am being rather blunt with you, Dragan, but my intention is not to offend you, only to understand your perspective better. And to be honest, a number of your posts and questions don't really seem that transparent, it's almost as if they're being written by a Bulgar pretending to be Macedonian. Again, no pun intended, that is just the way it appears. We have had many pretenders come and go and my response to you has this in consideration. I hope you show otherwise.

You're preaching to the choir mate, we already know how Bulgars manipulate history against Macedonians. Unless you're bringing logical counter-arguments to the table, there is no need to keep spreading their filth here.

They parade all sorts of lies and manipulations, there is nothing special about this case. Why do you keep presenting the arguments of our enemies without our counter-arguments, given that you're already aware of what they are?

SoM,I don't know where you got the idea that my posts look like they're "written by a Bulgar pretending to be Macedonian",given the fact that most threads I've created are simply questioning alleged "evidences" of our neighbors against our people,language and culture,looking for info from my fellow countrymen to dispute the same (feel free to check my attitude towards Bulgarians in my posts).So before labeling me as a Bulgarian infiltrator first check ALL my posts please.

I've been arguing with Bulgarians,Greeks and Serbs on many forums and every time I see them present an "evidence" for THEIR version of events,if I don't have a reasonable,scientifically or historically backed-up explanation I seek answers here,since I know there are many Macedonians here that have been through all those "evidences" and have the counter-arguments I need.

You say I "keep presenting the arguments of our enemies".I am simply presenting THEIR "argument" looking for counter-arguments here.What's wrong with that?If we just say "no dudes you're wrong" that won't mean a thing.What we need is a non-biased,scientifically or historically proved hard counter-argument to answer back.That's all,simple as that.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by DraganOfStip

So before labeling me as a Bulgarian infiltrator first check ALL my posts please.

Dragan, I haven't labelled you as anything, I just made an observation.

I've been arguing with Bulgarians,Greeks and Serbs on many forums and every time I see them present an "evidence" for THEIR version of events,if I don't have a reasonable,scientifically or historically backed-up explanation I seek answers here,since I know there are many Macedonians here that have been through all those "evidences" and have the counter-arguments I need.

Fair enough, if you need assistance or information I will do what I can to accomodate, but can I ask that you also present some of your own thoughts and counter-arguments, even if they are preliminary? That will at least help us understand not only the Bulgar argument you're making reference to, but also the counter-arguments you've produced which you don't consider to be reasonable, scientific or historically accurate.

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Dragan, I haven't labelled you as anything, I just made an observation.

Fair enough, if you need assistance or information I will do what I can to accomodate, but can I ask that you also present some of your own thoughts and counter-arguments, even if they are preliminary? That will at least help us understand not only the Bulgar argument you're making reference to, but also the counter-arguments you've produced which you don't consider to be reasonable, scientific or historically accurate.

I didn't say they're not reasonable,scientific or historically accurate.
Ok,I think I know how to best explain myself here:
let's say you're,for example English.You travel to another country,let's just call it Neverland.Neverland borders with a country,call it Utopia.Utopia not far ago gained it's independence,it's language is somewhat similar to Neverlandish and to another neighboring country.Now i won't get into the naming dispute Utopia has with it's third neighbor cos this will prolong beyond reason.Anyway,a Neverlandish guy shows you both languages are mutually intelligible,and a tablet from a century and a half ago in a Utopian city written in Nererlandish,referring to it's population as Neverlanders.Then you go to the much smaller Utopia and the Utopians say "oh,that's just because we were under the Neverlandish church back then,it's nothing."
Who would you believe,as a foreigner,as a random non-biased guy?

Do you get my point?We already know as Macedonians about who we are,what is our nationality and language,but if we limit our knowledge just to ourselves,the whole world will fall under the spell of those tablets,inscriptions etc. and we'll never get the recognition we deserve.I'm just trying to provide as much counter-arguments as possible against every of their claims individually.