Macedonia is the Mother of all Macedonians, 1856!

[Sweet Sixteen]

Originally Posted by Chakalarov

Regarding the name Macedonia, I recently read a theory that the name is derived from the words Make (mother) and Dion (goddess)

http://macedonianspark.com/mk/istori...05-19-12-52-20

However, I too liked to think that Makedonija derived from Make (mother) + don (home), but looking at the PIE origin, *dom-o- "house," in turn derived from the from root *dem- "house, household". It seems odd to me that there would be a shift from to -dom to -don and then back to -dom. Thoughts?

Make=mother?
Dion=godess?

In which languages?

Domos (δόμος) =house, v. demo (δέμω) =to build
are basic Greek words. The so called Proto-Indo-European root *dom is inexistent (that’s the meaning of the asterisk you always see at the beginning of the word). This word is a hypothetical earlier form of the (existent) Greek word domos and the (existent) Sanskrit word dama.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...try%3Ddo%2Fmos

Originally Posted by George S.

THis name is born since the dawn of time Only god could have called us not the slimy people called the greeks who come under various names.

Well, it obviously wasn't God. The name Macedonia did not exist at the time of Homer, it appears later.


---

[George S.]

don or dom I think is the same thing.The n or M is substituted.There are some countries who have used it eg Scotland.MacDON ald.There are others.Think about what words we have Dom,Doma.Domacile,Majka Domain.Domot,There are a lot of instances.SS Macedonia has existed prior to prehistoric times .I don't know about you but the Macedonia had scattered throuout Macedonia mother goddesess.People worshipped the mother goddess no wonder its called Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Chakalarov

However, I too liked to think that Makedonija derived from Make (mother) + don (home), but looking at the PIE origin, *dom-o- "house," in turn derived from the from root *dem- "house, household". It seems odd to me that there would be a shift from to -dom to -don and then back to -dom. Thoughts?

In the middle ages the Macedonian word for 'mother' was -mati, afterwards developing into -majka, so I don't think the above explanation is likely. And while it may be possible that there are examples of m > n and n > m in some words, I don't think it applies to don > dom. A PIE example similar to -don is *dhunos, which may have meant 'fort' or 'place', and is the root of the Celtic word -dun (as in Singidun, the Celtic name for Belgrade). I have also found the Celtic Caledoni and Thracian Edoni tribal names as interesting similarities. The exact etymology of Macedonia is yet to be concretely determined. I haven't given it much thought as of late, but as the Vardar River is perhaps the most prominent feature of the area, I did at one stage begin to look at the possibility of Macedonia meaning something like [land of the] 'great river', based on PIE roots *meg (great) and *dehanu (river). Some examples below:

PIE *meg, Sanskrit -mahayati, Tocharian -mākā, Phrygian -meka, Hittite -makes, etc
PIE *dehanu, Sarmatian -dānu, Ossetian -don (also see river names Danube, Don, Dnieper and Dniester)

In some aspects, Indo-Iranian languages (Sanskrit, Ossetian, etc) show remarkable similarities to Balto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkan languages, so it is not impossible that the ancient Macedonian language also had such words, or that they were loaned, or that the name was originally an exonym. Of course, this is only conjecture like all others, but it seems to make some sense because such a naming convention is not unknown, for example, the Macedonian district known as Dolna Reka (Lower River).

Originally Posted by Sweet Sixteen

The so called Proto-Indo-European root *dom is inexistent (that’s the meaning of the asterisk you always see at the beginning of the word). This word is a hypothetical earlier form of the (existent) Greek word domos and the (existent) Sanskrit word dama.

PIE *dom is also the root word for Latin domus, Macedonian dom and Thracian dama.

Originally Posted by GeorgeS

THis name is born since the dawn of time Only god could have called us not the slimy people called the greeks........

Great theory George. It is this sort of stupidity from Macedonians that gives others the wrong impression that our enemies are more credible than they actually are. Well done.

[Chakalarov]

Veering slightly off topic again, but since we are talking about the origin of the name Macedonia, this is of interest.


On the Macedonian-language Wikipedia article about the ancient Macedonians, I read an interesting theory.

" Според некои научници, името Макеоднци било хеленски превод на нивното изворно име - Кауконци [1]. Имињата Makedonia и Makedon се хеленска копија, односно калк на домородното име[1]"

"According to other academics, the name Macedonia was a Hellenic translation of their original name-Kaukonci. The names Makedonia and Makedon are Hellenic copies, of the native name."

While I have always been in favor of the idea of ancient Greeks Hellenising foreign names and places (for which there is ample evidence to show), I have never come across this theory. The source listed for this theory is the book Историја на Аргеадите, Наде Проева, Скопје, 2004

Has anyone heard of this before?

[vicsinad]

Chakalarov:

I have nothing to say on this matter, but after a quick google search, I found this opinion from a 2002 post:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/1089

Najstarite dosega poznati podatoci za Makedonija se naogjaat vo
deloto ,,Ilijada" na grckiot poet Homer kade sto Makedonija e
spomnata so imeto Ematija. Imeno Homer megju sojuznicite na Troja
osven toa sto gi spomnuva Pajoncite koi spored najnovite izvorni
podatoci i istrazuvanja se smeta deka bile edno od makedonskite
pleminja i imale makedonsko etnicko poteklo, toj ja spomnuva i
Ematija. Ova spomnuvanje na imeto Ematija e osobeno znacajno za
makedonskata anticka istorija ako se znae podatokot koj go soopstuva
Strabon i koj veli deka Makedonija se vikala Ematija, dodeka pak
imeto Makedonija go dobila spored vladeenjeto na mitskiot junak
Makedon. Od ova proizleguva deka Ematija bilo edno od starite iminja
so koe se narekuvala Makedonija.

Inaku imeto Ematija se izveduva od grckiot zbor "amatos" sto znaci
pesoces, pesocno, pesok, i so ova ime se odbelezuva t.e. istoto se
koristelo za oznacuvanje na istocniot krajbrezen del od Makedonija
koj bil pesokliv. Potvrda za ova ima i vo deloto na Ptolemaj (127-
145) pod naslov ,,Geographike hyphegesis" kade sto avtorot govorejki
za prvata makedonska drzava veli deka ova ime se upotrebuvalo za
oznacuvanje na celoto makedonsko krajbrezno podracje istocno od
Halkidik.

Vo naukata postojat razlicni tolkuvanja na imeto ,,Makedonija". Pa
taka nekoi istoricari imeto ,,makedonija i makedon" go povrzuvaat so
edna pridavka koja se srekava samo kaj Homer a toa e ,,makednos" sto
znaci visok. Spored drugi tolkuvanja ,,makednos" znaci planinci,
gorstaci, i se objasnuva so pretpostavkata deka Makedoncite dosle od
visoki mesta t.e. od Gorna vo Dolna Makedonija. No ova e malku
verojatno bidejki na terenot so arheoloskite iskopuvanja ne e
posvedocena vakva migracija od Gorna vo Dolna Makedonija. Nekoi
istoricari smetaat deka imeto na Makedoncite bilo Kaukonci no vo
grckiot jazik prevodot na ova ime znacelo Makedonci. No i ova e malku
verojatno.

Spored podatocite od najnovite istrazuvanja imeto ,,Makedonija"
najverojatno ima brigisko poteklo. Imeno Brigite bile najstariot
etnicki supstrakt koj ucestvuval vo etnogenezata na antickiot
Makedonski narod, t.e. istite pred nivnata migracija i naseluvanje vo
Mala Azija ja naseluvale teritorijata na Makedonija i istite vazat za
najstariot etnicki element koj ja naseluval Makedonija, a istite od
strana na najgolemiot broj istoricari se smetaat kako etnicko jadro
ili osnova od koja niz tekot na vremeto se izdiferenciral posebniot
anticki Makedonski narod. Imeno postojat se pogolem broj naucnici koi
smetaat deka imeto Makedonija ima brigisko poteklo i istoto na
starobrigiskiot ili protomakedonskiot jazik znacelo ,,zemja". Ottuka
e i povrzanosta na imeto Ematija sto znaci "pesokliva zemja" i imeto
Makedonija sto na brigiskiot jazik isto taka znacelo "zemja".

[Chakalarov]

Thanks, vicsinad. I too found this article online. However, it does a poor job of explaining its reasoning. If we are to accept Makedon meant "Highlander" in Greek, then are we to assume that Kaukonci meant something similar as well in ancient Macedonian? Furthermore, I wanted to see the etymology of Kaukon, which no one can provide. Hopefully someone on this forum knows this theory better than we do.

[George S.]

Chak its the first time I heard it that Macedonians are kaukonci.I did a search theres not much there.All I know is the name Macedonia is a very old name.Its a name born untoitself.it means mothers domain or mothers kingdom.The greeks have created a lot of fabarbarians.lsehoods they call myths.For example they wrote a book in 1988 4000 of greek history.When in fact they haven't been on the Balkans for that long.They came about 3000 years ago approximately.When they came to the greek peninsula there were other races there .Mycenian,minoan,doric,Pelazic,Macedonians.The greeks claim the two peoples are related.Evidence shows the opposite.Macedonians according to the greeks were called barbarians (backwards,primitive people) But on closer examination they found the Macedonians far more advanced than the greeks.We know over time the greeks Hellenised names places etc etc.

[vicsinad]

Chakalarov:

I did some more research. I don't know what to make of it all in terms of what you're looking for directly, but I posted some links with some information. Hopefully it leads you somewhere. Basically, if the term Kaukonci came up, and it was original, I put it here. Maybe the links will provide some other insight with regards to other ideas... I did my best!

http://www.mn.mk/komentari/6809-Rimj...akedonsko-more

Тргнувајќи од античките автори може да се каже дека првобитното име на Македонија било Ематија, а за Македонците името Кауконци кои се споменати во Илијадата како сојузници на Тројанците. Името Македонија за државата и Македонци за народот започнало да се употребува од VIII/VII век п.н.е. по формирањето на македонската држава од страна на владетелското семејство Аргеади во областа Орестида (чие пак, постаро име било Макета).

http://forum.kotle.ca/showthread.php?tid=230&pid=8834

http://forum.kajgana.com/threads/%D0...e.47371/page-4

Од причини што Македонија се уште не била,односно Македонците во тоа време немале единствена држава,не се споменати под нивното подоцнежно име.Некои размислувања на еминентни лингвисти сметаат дека името Македон претставува грчки превод на нивно постаро и првобитно име Кауконци.Доколку ваквото гледиште се смета за точно и исправно,во тој случај би значело дека најраното споменување на Македонците под името Кауконци би се толкувало во Илијада,како сојузници на тројанците задно со Пајонците.

I found this explanation of the term in Serbian, with an English translation about the name:

http://www.tvorac-grada.com/knjige/h...komentari.html

Кауконци — Херодот сматра потомке Нелеја, тзв. Нелиде, из Пила у Месенији Кауконцима. Иначе, то је нехеленски народ у Малој Азији, у покрајини Битинији, на граници Пафлагоније, на обали Црног мора. У Хелади су сматрани пелашким народом. Становали су на западној обали Пелопонеза, од Аркадије па даље. У историјској епоси налазе се само у Трифилији, јужном делу Елиде.

Kaukonci - Herodotus considered descendants Neleja, so. Nelida, from Pila in Messenia Kaukoncima. Otherwise, it is nehelenski people in Asia Minor, in the province of Bithynia, Paphlagonia bordering on the Black Sea coast. The Hellas are considered pelagic people. They lived on the west coast of the Peloponnese, from Arcadia onwards. In the historical epoch are only Trifiliji, south of Elida.

http://nadezna2.blogspot.com/2009/04...-antickte.html

Ако се земе дека “Кауконци” е всушност грчкиот превод за името на античките Македонци тогаш нивното прво спомнување е сепак кај Хомер во неговата Илијада. Кај Страбон и Плиниј постојат податоци дека првобитното име на Македонија e Emathia, а тој став го брани Плиниј кој тврди дека Ајга се наогала во Emathia, името со кое што грчките морепловци ја нарекувале земјата нaселена со македонските племиња (не грчки) и дека со тој назив била наречена цела приморска Mакедонија.

[George S.]

I couldn't read the fine print so what does kakonci mean???Note after the great flood from descended yevan so compared to kaukonci what is the meaning or connection?Kakonci is not mentioned in the bible.

[Chakalarov]

I recently started reading Risto Stefov's (and others') book entitled,

"Macedonia in Ancient Times"

A thoroughly interesting read, but I came across their etymology of "Makedon", and I wanted to see if anyone has any further information on their theory.

The first part of the first variant
is a complex word consisting of the words mak-mak which
in Macedonian means rich, blessed, happy well-situated
and the word ar-ar as in makar-makar, which means least,
right.
The second part of the first variant is the word
kednos-kednos which means attentive, honest and noble.
There is an analogous word to this in Hyperborean in
today’s Mačva, located on the plain between the rivers
Sava and Danube, which verifi es this.
According to the second variant, as described by
etymologist Mpampinioti (1998, 1043?), the word ‘makedon’
(Makedon) comes from the epithet ‘makednos-makednos’,
where the word maki, makros-maki means narrow, tall,
while ketωn-ketones-kedon, kedones originates from the
word hthon-ge, ‘hton-e’, which means earth, ground, soil, a
meaning that was given to the original toponym. Contrary
to this, Senc (1910, 503) says that
‘kednos’ means dear, attentive, honest, while edna,
adnos means ‘gift, dowry’. Therefore, roughly translated, the
word ‘makedon’ could mean ‘master, head of a household,
landlord, wealthy man’ because Makedonija (Macedonia)
was a country of landlords and wealthy men, as in mak meaning rich and edon – meaning country, respectively. (pg. 18).

There are no citations for the roots mak and edon. I have tried searching PIE lexicons but I have not found much. Does anyone have anything more to add to the discussion?