Priscus at the court of Attila the Huns

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  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    Priscus at the court of Attila the Huns

    Priscus was a late Roman diplomat, sophist and historian living in the Roman Empire during the 5th century. He accompanied Maximinus, the ambassador of Theodosius II to the court of Attila the Huns.

    Priscus, born at Panium in Thrace, probably quite early in the fifth century, wrote a history in eight books, but of that total, only fragments survive. The fragment presented here details a visit in 448 by Priscus himself to the court of Attila and offers a picture of the Huns that differs markedly from other sources; it is therefore valuable for a number of different reasons. Fragment 8(in the numeration of Müller, Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum, IV) is a long fragment, only partly translated by Bury;





    Priscus Fragment 8; At the court of Attila

    We set out with the barbarians, and arrived at Sardica(Sofia, Bulgaria), which is thirteen days for a fast traveller from Constantinople. Halting there we considered it advisable to invite Edecon and the barbarians with him to dinner. The inhabitants of the place sold us sheep and oxen, which we slaughtered, and we prepared a meal. In the course of the feast, as the barbarians lauded Attila and we lauded the Emperor, Bigilas remarked that it was not fair to compare a man and a god, meaning Attila by the man and Theodosius by the god. The Huns grew excited and hot at this remark. But we turned the conversation in another direction, and soothed their wounded feelings; and after dinner, when we separated, Maximin presented Edecon and Orestes with silk garments and Indian gems....

    When we arrived at Naissus(Nis, Serbia) we found the city deserted, as though it had been sacked; only a few sick persons lay in the churches. We halted at a short distance from the river, in an open space, for all the ground adjacent to the bank was full of the bones of men slain in war. On the morrow we came to the station of Agintheus, the commander-in-chief of the Illyrian armies(magister militum per Illyricum), who was posted not far from Naissus, to announce to him the Imperial commands, and to receive five of those seventeen deserters, about whom Attila had written to the Emperor. We had an interview with him, and having treated the deserters with kindness, he committed them to us. The next day we proceeded from the district of Naissus towards the Danube; we entered a covered valley with many bends and windings and circuitous paths. We thought we were travelling due west, but when the day dawned the sun rose in front; and some of us unacquainted with the topography cried out that the sun was going the wrong way, and portending unusual events. The fact was that that part of the road faced the east, owing to the irregularity of the ground. Having passed these rough places we arrived at a plain which was also well wooded.

    At the river we were received by barbarian ferrymen, who rowed us across the river in boats made by themselves out of single trees hewn and hollowed. These preparations had not been made for our sake, but to convey across a company of Huns; for Attila pretended that he wished to hunt in Roman territory, but his intent was really hostile, because all the deserters had not been given up to him.

    Having crossed the Danube, and proceeded with the barbarians about seventy stadia, we were compelled to wait in a certain plain, that Edecon and his party might go on in front and inform Attila of our arrival. As we were dining in the evening we heard the sound of horses approaching, and two Scythians arrived with directions that we were to set out to Attila. We asked them first to partake of our meal, and they dismounted and made good cheer.

    On the next day, under their guidance, we arrived at the tents of Attila, which were numerous, about three o'clock, and when we wished to pitch our tent on a hill the barbarians who met us prevented us, because the tent of Attila was on low ground, so we halted where the Scythians desired....

    (Then a message is received from Attila, who was aware of the nature of their embassy, saying that if they had nothing further to communicate to him he would not receive them, so they reluctantly prepared to return.)

    When the baggage had been packed on the beasts of burden, and we were perforce preparing to start in the night time, messengers came from Attila bidding us wait on account of the late hour. Then men arrived with an ox and river fish, sent to us by Attila, and when we had dined we retired to sleep. When it was day we expected a gentle and courteous message from the barbarian, but he again bade us depart if we had no further mandates beyond what he already knew. We made no reply, and prepared to set out, though Bigilas insisted that we should feign to have some other communication to make. When I saw that Maximin was very dejected, I went to Scottas (one of the Hun nobles, brother of Onegesius), taking with me Rusticius, who understood the Hun language. He had come with us to Scythia, not as a member of the embassy, but on business with Constantius, an Italian whom Aetius had sent to Attila to be that monarch's private secretary.

    I informed Scottas, Rusticius acting as interpreter, that Maximin would give him many presents if he would procure him an interview with Attila; and, moreover, that the embassy would not only conduce to the public interests of the two powers, but to the private interest of Onegesius, for the Emperor desired that he should be sent as an ambassador to Byzantium, to arrange the disputes of the Huns and Romans, and that there he would receive splendid gifts. As Onegesius was not present, it was for Scottas, I said, to help us, or rather help his brother, and at the same time prove that the report was true which ascribed to him an influence with Attila equal to that possessed by his brother. Scottas mounted his horse and rode to Attila's tent, while I returned to Maximin and found him in a state of perplexity and anxiety, lying on the grass with Bigilas.

    I described my interview with Scottas, and bade him make preparations for an audience of Attila. They both jumped up, approving of what I had done, and recalled the men who had started with the beasts of burden. As we were considering what to say to Attila, and how to present the Emperor's gifts, Scottas came to fetch us, and we entered Attila's tent, which was surrounded by a multitude of barbarians. We found Attila sitting on a wooden chair. We stood at a little distance and Maximin advanced and saluted the barbarian, to whom he gave the Emperor's letter, saying that the Emperor prayed for the safety of him and his. The king replied, "It shall be unto the Romans as they wish it to be unto me," and immediately addressed Bigilas, calling him a shameless beast, and asking him why he ventured to come when all the deserters had not been given up. . . .

    After the departure of Bigilas, who returned to the Empire (nominally to find the deserters whose restoration Attila demanded, but really to get the money for his fellow-conspirator Edecon), we remained one day in that place and then set out with Attila for the northern parts of the country.

    We accompanied the barbarian for a time, but when we reached a certain point took another route by the command of the Scythians who conducted us, as Attila was proceeding to a village where he intended to marry the daughter of Eskam, though he had many other wives, for the Scythians practise polygamy.

    We proceeded along a level road in a plain and met with navigable rivers of which the greatest, next to the Danube, are the Drecon, Tigas, and Tiphesas which we crossed in the Monoxyles, boats made of one piece, used by the dwellers on the banks: the smaller rivers we traversed on rafts which the barbarians carry about with them on carts, for the purpose of crossing morasses. In the villages we were supplied with food--millet instead of corn, and mead, as the natives call it, instead of wine. The attendants who followed us received millet, and a drink made of barley, which the barbarians call kam.

    Late in the evening, having travelled a long distance, we pitched our tents on the banks of a fresh-water lake, used for water by the inhabitants of the neighbouring village. But a wind and storm, accompanied by thunder and lightning and heavy rain, arose, and almost threw down our tents; all our utensils were rolled into the waters of the lake. Terrified by the mishap and the atmospherical disturbance, we left the place and lost one another in the dark and the rain, each following the road that seemed most easy. But we all reached the village by different ways, and raised an alarm to obtain what we lacked. The Scythians of the village sprang out of their huts at the noise, and, lighting the reeds which they use for kindling fires, asked what we wanted. Our conductors replied that the storm had alarmed us; so they invited us to their huts and provided warmth for us by lighting large fires of reeds.

    The lady who governed the village- -she had been one of Bleda's wives--sent us provisions and good-looking girls to console us(this is a Scythian compliment). We treated the young women to a share in the eatables. but declined to take any further advantage of their presence.

    We remained in the huts till day dawned and then went to look for our lost utensils, which we found partly in the place where we had pitched the tent, partly on the bank of the lake, and partly in the water. We spent that day in the village drying our things; for the storm had ceased and the sun was bright. Having looked after our horses and cattle, we directed our steps to the princess, to whom we paid our respects and presented gifts in return for her courtesy. The gifts consisted of things which are esteemed by the barbarians as not produced in the country--three silver phials, red skins, Indian pepper, palm fruit, and other delicacies.

    Having advanced a distance of seven days farther, we halted at a village; for as the rest of the route was the same for us and Attila, it behoved us to wait, so that he might go in front. Here we met with some of the "western Romans," who had also come on an embassy to Attila--the count Romulus, Promotus governor of Noricum, and Romanus a military captain. With them was Constantius whom Aetius had sent to Attila to be his secretary, and Tatulus, the father of Orestes; these two were not connected with the embassy, but were friends of the ambassadors. Constantius had known them of old in the Italies, and Orestes had married the daughter of Romulus.

    The object of the embassy, was to soften the soul of Attila, who demanded the surrender of one Silvanus, a dealer in silver plate in Rome, because he had received golden vessels from a certain Constantius. This Constantius, a native of Gaul, had preceded his namesake in the office of secretary to Attila. When Sirmium in Pannonia was besieged by the Scythians, the bishop of the place consigned the vessels to his(Constantius') care, that if the city were taken and he survived they might be used to ransom him; and in case he were slain, to ransom the citizens who were led into captivity. But when the city was enslaved, Constantius violated his engagement, and, as he happened to be at Rome on business, pawned the vessels to Silvanus for a sum of money, on condition that if he gave back the money within a prescribed period the dishes should be returned, but otherwise should become the property of Silvanus.

    Constantius, suspected of treachery, was crucified by Attila and Bleda; and afterwards, when the affair of the vessels became known to Attila, he demanded the surrender of Silvanus on the ground that he had stolen his property. Accordingly Aetius and the Emperor of the Western Romans sent to explain that Silvanus was the creditor of Constantius, the vessels having been pawned and not stolen, and that he had sold them to priests and others for sacred purposes. If, however, Attila refused to desist from his demand, he, the Emperor, would send him the value of the vessels, but would not surrender the innocent Silvanus.

    Having waited for some time until Attila advanced in front of us, we proceeded, and having crossed some rivers we arrived at a large village, where Attila's house was said to be more splendid than his residences in other places. It was made of polished boards, and surrounded with a wooden enclosure, designed, not for protection, but for appearance. The house of Onegesius was second to the king's in splendour, and was also encircled with a wooden enclosure, but it was not adorned with towers like that of the king. Not far from the enclosure was a large bath which Onegesius--who was the second in power among the Scythians-- built, having transported the stones from Pannonia; for the barbarians in this district had no stones or trees, but used imported material. The builder of the bath was a captive from Sirmium, who expected to win his freedom as payment for making the bath. But he was disappointed, and greater trouble befell him than mere captivity among the Scythians, for Onegesius appointed him bathman, and he used to minister to him and his family when they bathed.

    When Attila entered the village he was met by girls advancing in rows, under thin white canopies of linen, which were held up by the outside women who stood under them, and were so large that seven or more girls walked beneath each. There were many lines of damsels thus canopied, and they sang Scythian songs. When he came near the house of Onegesius, which lay on his way, the wife of Onegesius issued from the door, with a number of servants, bearing meat and wine, and saluted him and begged him to partake of her hospitality. This is the highest honour that can be shown among the Scythians. To gratify the wife of his friend, he ate, just as he sat on his horse, his attendants raising the tray to his saddlebow; and having tasted the wine, he went on to the palace, which was higher than the other houses and built on an elevated site. But we remained in the house of Onegesius, at his invitation, for he had returned from his expedition with Attila's son. His wife and kinsfolk entertained us to dinner, for he had no leisure himself, as he had to relate to Attila the result of his expedition and explain the accident which had happened to the young prince, who had slipped and broken his right arm.

    After dinner we left the house of Onegesius, and took up our quarters nearer the palace, so that Maximin might be at a convenient distance for visiting Attila or holding intercourse with his court.

    The next morning, at dawn of day, Maximin sent me to Onegesius, with presents offered by himself as well as those which the Emperor had sent, and I was to find out whether he would have an interview with Maximin and at what time. When I arrived at the house, along with the attendants who carried the gifts, I found the doors closed, and had to wait until some one should come out and announce our arrival.

    As I waited and walked up and down in front of the enclosure which surrounded the house, a man, whom from his Scythian dress I took for a barbarian, came up and addressed me in Greek, with the word Xaire, "Hail!" I was surprised at a Scythian speaking Greek. For the subjects of the Huns, swept together from various lands, speak, besides their own barbarous tongues, either Hunnic or Gothic, or--as many as have commercial dealings with the western Romans--Latin; but none of them easily speak Greek, except captives from the Thracian or Illyrian sea-coast; and these last are easily known to any stranger by their torn garments and the squalor of their heads, as men who have met with a reverse. This man, on the contrary, resembled a well-to-do Scythian, being well dressed, and having his hair cut in a circle after Scythian fashion. Having returned his salutation, I asked him who he was and whence he had come into a foreign land and adopted Scythian life. When he asked me why I wanted to know, I told him that his Hellenic speech had prompted my curiosity. Then he smiled and said that he was born a Greek and had gone as a merchant to Viminacium, on the Danube, where he had stayed a long time, and married a very rich wife. But the city fell a prey to the barbarians, and he was stript of his prosperity, and on account of his riches was allotted to Onegesius in the division of the spoil, as it was the custom among the Scythians for the chiefs to reserve for themselves the rich prisoners. Having fought bravely against the Romans and the Acatiri, he had paid the spoils he won to his master, and so obtained freedom. He then married a barbarian wife and had children, and had the privilege of eating at the table of Onegesius.

    He considered his new life among the Scythians better than his old life among the Romans, and the reasons he gave were as follows: "After war the Scythians live in inactivity, enjoying what they have got, and not at all, or very little, harassed. The Romans, on the other hand, are in the first place very liable to perish in war, as they have to rest their hopes of safety on others, and are not allowed, on account of their tyrants to use arms. And those who use them are injured by the cowardice of their generals who cannot support the conduct of war. But the condition of the subjects in time of peace is far more grievous than the evils of war, for the exaction of the taxes is very severe and unprincipled men inflict injuries on others, because the laws are practically not valid against all classes. A transgressor who belongs to the wealthy classes is not punished for his injustice, while a poor man, who does not understand business, undergoes the legal penalty, that is if he does not depart this life before the trial, so long is the course of lawsuits protracted, and so much money is expended on them. The climax of the misery is to have to pay in order to obtain justice. For no one will give a court to the injured man unless he pay a sum of money to the judge and the judge's clerks."

    In reply to this attack on the Empire, I asked him to be good enough to listen with patience to the other side of the question. "The creators of the Roman republic," I said, "who were wise and good men, in order to prevent things from being done at haphazard made one class of men guardians of the laws, and appointed another class to the profession of arms, who were to have no other object than to be always ready for battle, and to go forth to war without dread, as though to their ordinary exercise having by practice exhausted all their fear beforehand. Others again were assigned to attend to the cultivation of the ground, to support both themselves and those who fight in their defence, by contributing the military corn-supply....

    To those who protect the interests of the litigants a sum of money is paid by the latter, just as a payment is made by the farmers to the soldiers. Is it not fair to support him who assists and requite him for his kindness? The support of the horse benefits the horseman....

    Those who spend money on a suit and lose it in the end cannot fairly put it down to anything but the injustice of their case. And as to the long time spent on lawsuits, that is due to concern for justice, that judges may not fail in passing correct judgments, by having to give sentence offhand; it is better that they should reflect, and conclude the case more tardily, than that by judging in a hurry they should both injure man and transgress against the Deity, the institutor of justice....

    The Romans treat their servants better than the king of the Scythians treats his subjects. They deal with them as fathers or teachers, admonishing them to abstain from evil and follow the lines of conduct whey they have esteemed honourable; they reprove them for their errors like their own children. They are not allowed, like the Scythians, to inflict death on them. They have numerous ways of conferring freedom; they can manumit not only during life, but also by their wills, and the testamentary wishes of a Roman in regard to his property are law."

    My interlocutor shed tears, and confessed that the laws and constitution of the Romans were fair, but deplored that the governors, not possessing the spirit of former generations, were ruining the State.

    As we were engaged in this discussion a servant came out and opened the door of the enclosure. I hurried up, and inquired how Onegesius was engaged, for I desired to give him a message from the Roman ambassador. He replied that I should meet him if I waited a little, as he was about to go forth. And after a short time I saw him coming out, and addressed him, saying, "The Roman ambassador salutes you, and I have come with gifts from him, and with the gold which the Emperor sent you. The ambassador is anxious to meet you, and begs you to appoint a time and place." Onegesius bade his servants receive the gold and the gifts, and told me to announce to Maximin that he would go to him immediately.

    I delivered the message, and Onegesius appeared in the tent without delay. He expressed his thanks to Maximin and the Emperor for the presents, and asked why he sent for him. Maximin said that the time had come for Onegesius to have greater renown among men, if he would go to the Emperor and by his wisdom arrange the objects of dispute between the Romans and Huns, and establish concord between them; thereby he will procure many advantages for his own family, as he all his children will always be friends of the Emperor and the Imperial family. Onegesius inquired what measures would gratify the Emperor and how he could arrange the disputes. Maximin replied: "If you cross into the lands of the Roman Empire you will lay the Emperor under an obligation, and you will arrange the matters at issue by investigating their causes and deciding them on the basis of the peace."

    Onegesius said he would inform the Emperor and his ministers of Attila's wishes, but the Romans need not think they could ever prevail with him to betray his master or neglect his Scythian training and his wives and children, or to prefer wealth among the Romans to bondage with Attila. He added that he would be of more service to the Romans by remaining in his own land and softening the anger of his master, if he were indignant for aught with the Romans, than by visiting them and subjecting himself to blame if he made arrangements that Attila did not approve of. He then retired, having consented that I should act as an intermediary in conveying messages from Maximin to himself, for it would not have been consistent with Maximin's dignity as ambassador to visit him constantly.

    The next day I entered the enclosure of Attila's palace, bearing gifts to his wife, whose name was Kreka. She had three sons, of whom the eldest governed the Acatiri and the other nations who dwell in Pontic Scythia. Within the enclosure were numerous buildings, some of carved boards beautifully fitted together, others of straight, fastened on round wooden blocks which rose to a moderate height from the ground. Attila's wife lived here, and, having been admitted by the barbarians at the door, I found her reclining on a soft couch. The floor of the room was covered with woollen mats for walking on. A number of servants stood round her, and maids sitting on the floor in front of her embroidered with colours linen cloths intended to be placed over the Scythian dress for ornament.

    Having approached, saluted, and presented the gifts, I went out and walked to another house, where Attila was, and waited for Onegesius, who, as I knew, was with Attila. I stood in the middle of a great crowd, the guards of Attila and his attendants knew me, and so no one hindered me. I saw a number of people advancing, and a great commotion and noise, Attila's egress being expected. And he came forth from the house with a dignified gait, looking round on this side and on that. He was accompanied by Onegesius, and stood in front of the house; and many persons who had lawsuits with one another came up and received his judgment. Then he returned into the house, and received ambassadors of barbarous peoples.

    As I was waiting for Onegesius, I was accosted by Romulus and Promotus and Romanus, the ambassadors who had come from Italy about the golden vessels; they were accompanied by Rusticius and by Constantiolus, a man from the Pannonian territory, which was subject to Attila. They asked me whether we had been dismissed or are constrained to remain, and I replied that it was just to learn this from Onegesius that I was waiting outside the palace. When I inquired in my turn whether Attila had vouchsafed them a kind reply, they told me that his decision could not be moved, and that he threatened war unless either Silvanus or the drinking-vessels were given up....

    As we were talking about the state of the world, Onegesius came out; we went up to him and asked him about our concerns. Having first spoken with some barbarians, he bade me inquire of Maximin what consular the Romans are sending as an ambassador to Attila. When I came to our tent I delivered the message to Maximin, and deliberated with him what answer we should make to the question of the barbarian.

    Returning to Onegesius, I said that the Romans desired him to come to them and adjust the matters of dispute, otherwise the Emperor will send whatever ambassador he chooses. He then bade me fetch Maximin, whom he conducted to the presence of Attila. Soon after Maximin came out, and told me that the barbarian wished Nomus or Anatolius or Senator to be the ambassador, and that he would not receive any other than one of these three; when he (Maximin) replied that it was not meet to mention men by name and so render them suspected in the eyes of the Emperor, Attila said that if they do not choose to comply with his wishes the differences will be adjusted by arms.

    When we returned to our tent the father of Orestes came with an invitation from Attila for both of us to a banquet at three o'clock. When the hour arrived we went to the palace, along with the embassy from the western Romans, and stood on the threshold of the hall in the presence of Attila. The cup-bearers gave us a cup, according to the national custom, that we might pray before we sat down. Having tasted the cup, we proceeded to take our seats; all the chairs were ranged along the walls of the room on either side. Attila sat in the middle on a couch; a second couch was set behind him, and from it steps led up to his bed, which was covered with linen sheets and wrought coverlets for ornament, such as Greeks and Romans use to deck bridal beds. The places on the right of Attila were held chief in honour, those on the left, where we sat, were only second.

    Berichus, a noble among the Scythians, sat on our side, but had the precedence of us. Onegesius sat on a chair on the right of Attila's couch, and over against Onegesius on a chair sat two of Attila's sons; his eldest son sat on his couch, not near him, but at the extreme end, with his eyes fixed on the ground, in shy respect for his father. When all were arranged, a cup-bearer came and handed Attila a wooden cup of wine. He took it, and saluted the first in precedence, who, honoured by the salutation, stood up and might not sit down until the king, having tasted or drained the wine, returned the cup to the attendant. All the guests then honoured Attila in the same way, saluting him, and then tasting the cups; but he did not stand up. Each of us had a special cupbearer, who would come forward in order to present the wine, when the cup-bearer of Attila retired.

    When the second in precedence and those next to him had been honoured in like manner, Attila toasted us in the same way according to the order of the seats. When this ceremony was over the cup-bearers retired, and tables, large enough for three or four, or even more, to sit at, were placed next the table of Attila, so that each could take of the food on the dishes without leaving his seat. The attendant of Attila first entered with a dish full of meat, and behind him came the other attendants with bread and viands, which they laid on the tables.

    A luxurious meal, served on silver plate, had been made ready for us and the barbarian guests, but Attila ate nothing but meat on a wooden trencher. In everything else, too, he showed himself temperate; his cup was of wood, while to the guests were given goblets of gold and silver. His dress, too, was quite simple, affecting only to be clean. The sword he carried at his side, the latchets of his Scythian shoes, the bridle of his horse were not adorned, like those of the other Scythians, with gold or gems or anything costly.

    When the viands of the first course had been consumed we all stood up, and did not resume our seats until each one, in the order before observed, drank to the health of Attila in the goblet of wine presented to him. We then sat down, and a second dish was placed on each table with eatables of another kind. After this course the same ceremony was observed as after the first. When evening fell torches were lit, and two barbarians coming forward in front of Attila sang songs they had composed, celebrating his victories and deeds of valour in war.

    And of the guests, as they looked at the singers, some were pleased with the verses, others reminded of wars were excited in their souls, while yet others, whose bodies were feeble with age and their spirits compelled to rest, shed tears.

    After the songs a Scythian, whose mind was deranged, appeared, and by uttering outlandish and senseless words forced the company to laugh. After him Zerkon, the Moorish dwarf, entered. He had been sent by Attila as a gift to Aetius, and Edecon had persuaded him to come to Attila in order to recover his wife, whom he had left behind him in Scythia; the lady was a Scythian whom he had obtained in marriage through the influence of his patron Bleda. He did not succeed in recovering her, for Attila was angry with him for returning. On the occasion of the banquet he made his appearance, and threw all except Attila into fits of unquenchable laughter by his appearance, his dress, his voice, and his words, which were a confused jumble of Latin, Hunnic, and Gothic.

    Attila, however, remained immovable and of unchanging countenance nor by word or act did he betray anything approaching to a smile of merriment except at the entry of Ernas, his youngest son, whom he pulled by the cheek, and gazed on with a calm look of satisfaction. I was surprised that he made so much of this son, and neglected his other children but a barbarian who sat beside me and knew Latin, bidding me not reveal what he told, gave me to understand that prophets had forewarned Attila that his race would fall, but would be restored by this boy. When the night had advanced we retired from the banquet, not wishing to assist further at the potations.


    Translated by J.B. Bury




    Last edited by Onur; 10-29-2010, 05:16 PM.
  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    #2
    Few facts about the Huns according to Priscus`s own observations;


    • Attila`s lands were called as Scythia and the people was Scythians according to the Romans. Already, in all Byzantine, western Roman and all other European records considered them as Scythians `till late 19th century but somehow(political reasons) after 19th century, all the Huns and then Turks became nothing but mongols and Scythians became indo-European people only, totally distinct from the Huns or Turks according to the European scholars.

      According to this newly invented theory, there was only Scythians around 2-1th BC and somehow Turks(mongols) came from Mars and assimilated everyone in 2-3rd century in Eurasia. Ofc there is no proof for this but that`s what they say anyway.



    • The spoken languages in Attila`s empire was Hunnic and Gothic. Common agreement between all scholars is; what Priscus calls as Hunnic language was some kind of Turkic. An old form of Turkic and Hungarian language, close to today`s Volga Bulgar`s chuvash, Tatar dialects and Hungarian dialect of today`s Szekely people of Romania.

      2nd language was Gothic because several Germanic tribes like Ostrogoths, Gepids etc were allies of the Huns. Before the Huns came to western Europe, Germanic tribes was always under pressure of Romans but then they united with the Huns with the exception of few tribes and only then they had upper hand vs. the Romans. Already western Roman Empire collapsed few years after Attila`s death. Other interesting thing is, before 19th century, Goths considered as the allies of Huns against Romans in the historical records but somehow after 19th century, Goths considered as vassals of Huns, a subject to send away to fight vs Romans. So when the Huns started to become mongols in the eyes of 19th century scholars, then Germanic tribes became slaves of the mongolic Huns, not allies.



    • It`s interesting that no one mentioned about Slavic tribes in the historical records about the Huns, despite the fact that these people were also part of the Huns. OR Slavic tribes was considered as Goths or maybe Huns(Scythians) at those times, not as a separate tribe???
    Last edited by Onur; 10-30-2010, 08:11 AM.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #3
      The Slavic name was not yet in use by the locals of that region, or it hadn't yet come to be recorded by writers in the Roman Empire. However, given the area that Attila ruled there is no doubt that the linguistic ancestors of the people who came to identify (and be identified) as Slavs were present among and within the Scythians, Goths and finally the Huns. Check the below:

      FROM MY MAKNEWS THREAD - SELDOMBALANCE I found this absolutely important when I placed it on maknews, and its just as important here. The following are extracts that touch upon as to why experts are divided in their theories, Also, the extracts touch upon language evolution. Mario Alinei Darwinism, traditional

      Not only, but when earlier historians, living in the centuries preceding the supposed arrival of the Slavs, write that the population of the Carpatian Basin offered a drink called medos (Proto-Slavic medŭ ‘drink produced with honey”) the Byzantine ambassadors directed to the court of Attila (king of the Huns), and that a part of the funeral rituals for Attila’s death was called strava (medieval name of a Slavic funeral ritual), only a biased reader can find evidence in this for the “first infiltrations” of Slavs in the Carpatian area, especially as they seem to have left not trace of their coming! (Neustupný-Neustupný 1963, 196).
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Onur
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2010
        • 2389

        #4
        An interesting documentary about the Huns and other European Germanic tribes by Discovery Channel;




        Secrets of the Dark Ages, Barbarians; History`s Hells Angels

        YouTube - History's Hells Angels (Part 1)

        YouTube - History's Hell Angels (Part 2)

        YouTube - History's Hell Angels (Part 3)

        YouTube - History's Hell Angels (Part 4)

        YouTube - History's Hell Angels (Part 5)



        The most interesting find in the documentary is, the Romans tried to erase everything about the so-called Barbarians from the history of the world, even if they became christian(the case with Theodoric the Great in 5th century, ruler of the Ostrogoths, Italy, and the Visigoths)

        Comment

        • Ottoman
          Banned
          • Nov 2010
          • 203

          #5
          Originally posted by Onur View Post
          Attila`s lands were called as Scythia and the people was Scythians according to the Romans. Already, in all Byzantine, western Roman and all other European records considered them as Scythians `till late 19th century but somehow(political reasons) after 19th century, all the Huns and then Turks became nothing but mongols and Scythians became indo-European people only, totally distinct from the Huns or Turks according to the European scholars.
          You know that the Mongols of the 12th century were actually Turkic tribes? present day Mongols are not descendants of the 12th century Mongols.

          Everyone knows that the Huns were Turkic, there is no need to hide this, Attila was Turkic and the greatest threat to the Roman Empire.
          Last edited by Ottoman; 11-30-2010, 04:25 PM.

          Comment

          • indigen
            Senior Member
            • May 2009
            • 1558

            #6
            "He was short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head: his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with gray: and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion showing the evidences of his origin..." - Jordanes, Getica

            Look up on Google "Jordanes Attila flat nose and a swarthy complexion" and you shall be presented with a number of webpages with the quote!



            Secondly, YOU DO HAVE IN BULGARIA SKELETAL REMAINS FROM GRAVES belonging to original/early (Balkan) Bulgarian state period and THEY DO SHOW A SIGNIFICANT MONGOLOID ELEMENT - 30% + (as mentioned by Oxford historian Stefan Nikolov, amongst others).

            Comment

            • indigen
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 1558

              #7
              Jordanes' description of the Huns, Brothers of the Bulgars:

              "...a stunted, foul and puny tribe, scarcely human, and having no language
              save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech. Such was the
              descent of the Huns...

              ...This cruel tribe, as Priscus the historian relates, settled on the
              farther bank of the Maeotic swamp. They were fond of hunting and had
              no skill in any other art. After they had grown to a nation, they disturbed
              the peace of neighboring races by theft and rapine...

              ...Now in my opinion the evil spirits, from whom the Huns are descended...

              ...As many as they captured, when they thus entered Scythia for the first
              time, they sacrificed to Victory. The remainder they conquered and made
              subject to themselves. (126) Like a whirlwind of nations they swept across
              the great swamp and at once fell upon the Alpidzuri, Alcildzuri, Itimari,
              Tuncarsi and Boisci, who bordered on that part of Scythia. The Alani also,
              who were their equals in battle, but unlike them in civilization, manners
              and appearance, they exhausted by their incessant attacks and subdued. (127)
              For by the terror of their features they inspired great fear in those whom
              perhaps they did not really surpass in war...

              THEIR FEATURES WERE:

              "...They made their foes flee in horror because THEIR SWARTHY ASPECT WAS
              FEARFUL, and they had, if I may call it so, a sort of shapeless lump, not a
              head, with pin-holes rather than eyes. Their hardihood is evident in their
              wild appearance, and they are beings who are cruel to their children on the
              very day they are born. For they cut the cheeks of the males with a sword,
              so that before they receive the nourishment of milk they must learn to
              endure wounds. (128) Hence they grow old beardless and their young men are
              without comeliness, because a face furrowed by the sword spoils by its scars
              the natural beauty of a beard. They are short in stature, quick in bodily
              movement, alert horsemen, broad shouldered, ready in the use of bow and
              arrow, and have firm-set necks which are ever erect in pride. Though they
              live in the form of men, they have the cruelty of wild beasts...."

              ----------------------------

              Oxford Bulgar Historian Stefan Nikolov:
              "...And the Avars WERE "Mongoloide" for sure, believe me...."

              Bozhidar Dimitrov:
              "...Bulgarians belong to the same ethnolingual group as the Huns, the Avars,
              the Pechenegs and the Cumans, i.e., the peoples, parts of which are to flow
              into the Bulgarian nation between the 7th and 14th centuries...."


              Dimiter Markovski:
              "Khan Asparouh's Bulgaro-Turks"


              "The year 681 accepted as Year One of Bulgaria's history."

              "...Banner of the Proto-Bulgarian troops consisted of horse's tail
              attached to a spear..."


              Jordanes description of Attila the Hun: "flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing evidence of his origin"

              Comment

              • Ottoman
                Banned
                • Nov 2010
                • 203

                #8
                You do know that there is a big difference between Bulgars and Bulgarians right? Bulgars were medieval Turkic peoples, while Bulgarians are now Slavs.

                The Huns came from Central Asia to Europe, in Europe they got mixed with the population there so they were of different origins, but the first Huns who came to Europe were Turkic just like Attila himself.

                There is no surviving first-person account of Attila's appearance. There is, however, a possible second-hand source, provided by Jordanes, who cites a description given by Priscus. It suggests a person of Asian features.

                Short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head; his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with grey; and he had a flat nose and tanned skin, showing evidence of his origin.
                Last edited by Ottoman; 12-01-2010, 02:59 AM.

                Comment

                • Onur
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2010
                  • 2389

                  #9
                  Originally posted by indigen View Post
                  "He was short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head: his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with gray: and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion showing the evidences of his origin..." - Jordanes, Getica
                  Jordanes wrote those about 100 years after Attilas death. He was a Visigoth and Visigoths was one of the Germanic tribes who didn't join the Huns but allied with Romans instead and because of this, Visigoths have been crushed by the Huns. So, Jordanes`s descriptions is highly biased and probably mostly fantasy unlike Priscus`s objective descriptions.

                  On the other hand, Priscus lived at the same time with Attila and he saw him personally.




                  "...Banner of the Proto-Bulgarian troops consisted of horse's tail
                  attached to a spear..."
                  That was also the symbol of the most steppe warriors in medieval age. Huns and early Hungarians used this too. Sometimes there was a horse skull attached to the spear.

                  You can see it on the dvd cover of the documentary i linked above here;

                  Last edited by Onur; 12-01-2010, 03:56 AM.

                  Comment

                  • indigen
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 1558

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Onur View Post
                    Jordanes wrote those about 100 years after Attilas death. He was a Visigoth and Visigoths was one of the Germanic tribes who didn't join the Huns but allied with Romans instead and because of this, Visigoths have been crushed by the Huns. So, Jordanes`s descriptions is highly biased and probably mostly fantasy unlike Priscus`s objective descriptions.

                    On the other hand, Priscus lived at the same time with Attila and he saw him personally.

                    That was also the symbol of the most steppe warriors in medieval age. Huns and early Hungarians used this too. Sometimes there was a horse skull attached to the spear.

                    You can see it on the dvd cover of the documentary i linked above here;

                    You seem to have an easy way to dismiss everything and anything that does not fit your view or perception with any old excuse, IMO! :-))) Thus there is not much point in arguing with you, mate.

                    How much Macedonian blood and heritage do you think we can apportion to modern day Turks of Turkey? :-)

                    Comment

                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      #11
                      Originally posted by indigen View Post
                      How much Macedonian blood and heritage do you think we can apportion to modern day Turks of Turkey? :-)
                      Heritage yes, but blood, i don't know and i already don't care about this blood connection stuff like i indicated several times b4. Thats not my concern either but it`s apparently yours since you are the one who keep writing things like Turko-Mongol, Bulgaro-Tatar, Turko-Bulgar etc. in your messages.

                      So, i wish you very best of luck in your quest of guessing the nationality of blood in people`s veins since you`ll need that for sure.

                      Comment

                      • indigen
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2009
                        • 1558

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Onur View Post
                        Heritage yes, but blood, i don't know and i already don't care about this blood connection stuff like i indicated several times b4.

                        So, i wish you very best of luck in your quest of guessing the nationality of blood in people`s veins since you`ll need that for sure.
                        Why not blood, Onur? Genetic studies, if if recollect rightly, identifies that Balkan (Macedonian Peninsula), especially Macedonians, and Anatolian populations do share a lot of DNA markers and tend to cluster together closely. Phrygians (Brigi), Paeonian, Thracians and other populations resided on both sides and Macedonians ruled the area for centuries. Then there is the case/possibility of lots of Macedonian muslim converts moving to Turkey at various times during Ottoman rule and most definitely masses of them post 1912-13 period. Lets leave it at that for a starting point.

                        Thats not my concern either but it`s apparently yours since you are the one who keep writing things like Turko-Mongol, Bulgaro-Tatar, Turko-Bulgar etc. in your messages.
                        Just because, for whatever reasons, you wish to deny that the original Turko-Mongol race was Asian, akin to Mongolians of today, does not mean we have to buy into your ambit theories (not officially sanctioned even in Turkey) and stop using the facts against Bulgar/Bulgaroman anti-Macedonian propaganda. The fact that the Turko-Mongol Bulgars ("Proto-Bulgars") are of Mongol(oid) (Asian) stock is a very strong ideological weapon to use against anti-Macedonian Bulgar/oman propaganda and your objections will not be countenanced at all because it will mean to disarm ourselves in the face of a fierce enemy of our very existence.
                        Last edited by indigen; 12-05-2010, 12:23 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Ottoman
                          Banned
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 203

                          #13
                          Todays Mongols in Mongolia are called Khalkha-Mongols, they have no connection with Turks and cant speak Turkic language.

                          The country Mongolia is named after the Mongols of the 12th century, these Mongols were mostly Turkic tribes.

                          Comment

                          • Onur
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 2389

                            #14
                            Originally posted by indigen View Post
                            Why not blood, Onur? Genetic studies, if if recollect rightly, identifies that Balkan (Macedonian Peninsula), especially Macedonians, and Anatolian populations do share a lot of DNA markers and tend to cluster together closely. Phrygians (Brigi), Paeonian, Thracians and other populations resided on both sides and Macedonians ruled the area for centuries. Then there is the case/possibility of lots of Macedonian muslim converts moving to Turkey at various times during Ottoman rule and most definitely masses of them post 1912-13 period. Lets leave it at that for a starting point.
                            I didn't say "not Blood". I said i don't know and it`s practically impossible to find out to what extent.

                            Yes, people moved between Anatolia and Balkans, i already know this since my family was one of them. I can ask same question to you then. Can you say how much Turkish blood your people have? Probably you will say zero since you think that all Turks are mongolic people and if you don't look like present day mongolians, then you are no Turk by blood, sigh... So, this "blood connection" argument with you becomes pointless.




                            Just because, for whatever reasons, you wish to deny that the original Turko-Mongol race was Asian, akin to Mongolians of today, does not mean we have to buy into your ambit theories (not officially sanctioned even in Turkey) and stop using the facts against Bulgar/Bulgaroman anti-Macedonian propaganda. The fact that the Turko-Mongol Bulgars ("Proto-Bulgars") are of Mongol(oid) (Asian) stock is a very strong ideological weapon to use against anti-Macedonian Bulgar/oman propaganda and your objections will not be countenanced at all because it will mean to disarm ourselves in the face of a fierce enemy of our very existence.
                            I don't deny that we were Asians. Yes we came from central Asia but i refuse that all the Turks was mongolic people. You should stop thinking that everyone who came from Asia was only mongols. This ideology of yours is plain stupid. Estonians, Hungarians are Asian latecomers like us too and most of Germanic people(Germans, Austrians, Dutch, Saxons etc.) migrated from Eurasia too in the era of Great migration. About 200-600 years b4 Hungarians, Turks came to Europe. So, why don't you apply same ideology for the Germanic people who came from northern side of Blacksea? According to you, they should be mongolic people too since they migrated from Asia again.

                            Dont you know that the white race are believed to be came from Caucasus? and thats why we call white people as Caucasian today. Indigen, you should consider(or learn) the fact that the mongolic people was a very small minority in central and Eurasia among some Germanic, Slavic and Turkic people about 1000+ years ago. These three tribes was already descendants of the tribal union called Scythians. Central Asia became mongoloid only after the Genghis Khan era and it`s not fully mongolic today either. For example, mongoloids among the people of Turkic states today are not more than 30-35%.

                            P. S: I think i`ve never said that here b4 but I believe the ancient Macedonians might be related with Scythians of Euroasia too. They maybe migrated to Balkans from the north of Blacksea like the other Scythian groups after them. So, maybe the ancient Macedonians was the first Scythian group to be called as "barbarians" by the Greeks and Romans. This is my own theory tough, not something i`ve read b4 and i don't think it`s something impossible since i don't think ancient Macedonians was mediterranean people like the Greeks and others. I believe, what Alexander did was something too ambitious for the mellow and sedentary people of mediterranean like the ancient Greeks. It was something can be done by Scythians like the Attila did the same 600 years after Alexander.
                            Last edited by Onur; 12-06-2010, 11:16 AM.

                            Comment

                            • Sovius
                              Member
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 241

                              #15
                              Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people

                              Christine Keyser, Caroline Bouakaze, Eric Crubézy, Valery G. Nikolaev, Daniel Montagnon, Tatiana Reis and Bertrand Ludes

                              Abstract

                              To help unravel some of the early Eurasian steppe migration movements, we determined the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the fourth century AD. In order to go further in the search of the geographic origin and physical traits of these south Siberian specimens, we also typed phenotype-informative single nucleotide polymorphisms. Our autosomal, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA analyses reveal that whereas few specimens seem to be related matrilineally or patrilineally, nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans. Our results also confirm that at the Bronze and Iron Ages, south Siberia was a region of overwhelmingly predominant European settlement, suggesting an eastward migration of Kurgan people across the Russo-Kazakh steppe. Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people and that they might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization. To the best of our knowledge, no equivalent molecular analysis has been undertaken so far.

                              http://www.springerlink.com/content/...f7fc84a62&pi=0
                              We now know exactly who the Scythians were and where they came from. Even during the Renaissance Period, the Cossacks still wore their hair rounded on their heads like horse tails. The figure that came to be known in the Western European historical narrative as Atilla the Hun was a Cossack. He rode his horse like a Cossack and kicked the living crap out of people like a Cossack. He was given a Cossack burial and his people held a big funeral feast known as a strava for him when he kicked the bucket.

                              People defined by R1a1 Y-DNA originally came from somewhere in and around Macedonia and other regions in Southeastern Europe where many people continue to be defined by R1a Y-DNA.

                              Assumptions and augmentations are the foundation of fiction, not historical scholarship. There appear to be at least two layers to all this Germanic revisionism that seem to keep “traditionalists” thinking along the path of a closed loop that never leads anyone anywhere.

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