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Old 05-06-2009, 02:19 PM   #21
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Daskale is that PDF in Greek? If it is not, i would like to read it to?
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Old 05-06-2009, 04:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarafot View Post
Daskale is that PDF in Greek? If it is not, i would like to read it to?
It is in Greek unfortunately.
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:11 AM   #23
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Here is page 99 of the same book, I hope you enjoy the read.



Translation into English, some words are missing a translation and are indicated with [not-translated-word]
Quote:
what Bulgarians who are not Bulgarian, but Slavs! I would like to ask you something. Before the several Slavs came to Macedonia, was the area uninhabited? Was it a deserted area that the Slavs discovered and then settled?
-No, I do not say that.
-At least, that is not what history tells us. If Macedonia was inhabited by populations, whoever they were, Greek, Chinese or other, these populations, when the Slavs came, either were lost, or their language mixed with the language of the Slavs because they had to communicate with these wild men who could not learn Greek. However, we know that these populations were not lost, there remains another explanation. The area is not Bulgarian, and neither is the language spoken Bulgarian. The Bulgarian exist only near the Bulgarian border, or just south of Sofia.
-I do not accept this theory. I would have to [praktikotera] things more realistically to accept it.
-I admit that what I have said are only theories and I leave them and come back to the [praktikotera] which you believe. You cannot deny that we have a big influence with the population that speaks Macedonian, the same way we have a big influence with those who speak Vlach(Aromanian)*. I did not count the drops of Slavic blood which runs through the veins of the Macedonian people, or mine, but I see one thing, one fact, that we have [trismegisti] influence over these populations.
-Over the villagers that speak Macedonian you have no influence. They have a Bulgarian consciousness.

*added by the translator, for those who do not know of the Vlach or Aromanian language. It is a Romance language similar to the Romanian language.
This is a very interesting text, both the Greek(Ion Dragoumis) Consul and the Bulgarian officer recognizes a Macedonian language, and this in 1907! Isn't History to kind sometimes..... :rmacedonia
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Old 06-12-2009, 05:20 AM   #24
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This is a very valuable contemporary source. Good work.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:29 AM   #25
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Here are both pages and their translation for an easier overview.

Page 98.


Page 99.


Translation of page 98 into English:
Quote:
-You cannot own every city that is inhabited by Greeks. If so Marseille would be yours, as well as Odessa
-The same observation more or less I make of you.
You want to make the area of Monastiri yours, because there are towns where the Macedonian language is spoken, which you call Bulgarian.
- Many towns! All the towns in the area speak Bulgarian!

-We and many remained! Do they wish to be Greeks or not;
And since they do want to be, I am not sure if language is enough proof of a peoples ethnicity.
First off, the language in question is not spoken by all, but only some Macedonian villagers. Those who speak it, do so only in their home not in public, where they speak Greek. And finally, this language is not Bulgarian, but a mix of Slavic and Greek. It is not Bulgarian, Bulgarian does not exist even in Bulgaria. The cities of Macedonia are clearly Greek, the people of the area are Greek, the history of the area is Greek, and the actual soil is Greek.

- I cannot understand, and I never will, this idea that you have that the Macedonians lost their language and picked up Bulgarian.
-I cannot see how the Bulgarians who are Hunno-Tartars lost their language and took
Translation of page 99 into English, some words are missing a translation and are indicated with [not-translated-word]
Quote:
the Bulgarian which is not Bulgarian, but Slavic! I would like to ask you something. Before the several Slavs came to Macedonia, was the area uninhabited? Was it a deserted area that the Slavs discovered and then settled?
-No, I do not say that.
-At least, that is not what history tells us. If Macedonia was inhabited by populations, whoever they were, Greek, Chinese or other, these populations, when the Slavs came, either were lost, or their language mixed with the language of the Slavs because they had to communicate with these wild men who could not learn Greek. However, we know that these populations were not lost, there remains another explanation. The area is not Bulgarian, and neither is the language spoken Bulgarian. The Bulgarian exist only near the Bulgarian border, or just south of Sofia.
-I do not accept this theory. I would have to [praktikotera] things more realistically to accept it.
-I admit that what I have said are only theories and I leave them and come back to the [praktikotera] which you believe. You cannot deny that we have a big influence with the population that speaks Macedonian, the same way we have a big influence with those who speak Vlach(Aromanian)*. I did not count the drops of Slavic blood which runs through the veins of the Macedonian people, or mine, but I see one thing, one fact, that we have [trismegisti] influence over these populations.
-Over the villagers that speak Macedonian you have no influence. They have a Bulgarian consciousness.

*added by the translator, for those who do not know of the Vlach or Aromanian language. It is a Romance language similar to the Romanian language.
Source: Ίων Δραγούμης, Μαρτύρων και ηρώων αίμα, εκδ. Μαλλιάρης-Παιδεία (φωτογραφική ανατύπωση της α' εκδ. 1907), page 98-99.
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:47 PM   #26
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This thread needs a bump, 1.5 years goes very fast.
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:43 PM   #27
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Great thread Daskalot. A few more solid contemporary sources like this one, and we can begin to make a strong case that contemporary Greeks who spent time in Macedonia distinguished the Macedonians as different from themselves, and different from the Bulgarians.
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Old 02-27-2011, 11:12 PM   #28
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Quote:
.....the actual soil is Greek.
I guess this sort of stupidity was rampant even back in 1907. I would love to know what sort of soil tests were carried out by Dragoumis for him to reach the conclusion that the 'actual soil is Greek'.
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:38 AM   #29
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He thinks everything is Greek, this post doesn't make sence. He recognizes a language which is a mixture of other languages, there's nothing to be happy at. And has anyone ever heard of such a scientist ? And actually the Greeks come from Ethiopia or India, why are they always talked of being "so civilized" ?

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Old 03-01-2011, 12:33 AM   #30
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The point of this thread, which has obviously gone way over your head, is the fact that the Macedonian language was recognised and acknowledged by people like Dragoumis. His 'finer detail' about what he thinks about the language is of little concern for us. The facts are simple, he saw people that identified their language as Macedonian, and he called it Macedonian himself.

This was in 1907. Pavlos Melas also recognised the same in 1904. It is now 2011, and some morons pretend that the Macedonians don't exist.

Your wholesale comment about Greeks emanating from Ethiopia and India is more a reflection of your own ignorance rather than reality. To be honest, I am not even sure where you plucked India from, and any Ethiopian 'component' would have been long outweighed by the Indo-European component of the Greek people during the last 3,000 years.
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