Characteristics of East, West and South Slavic

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

From the perspective of someone far from being a linguist. The definite article is a bloody useful thing that removes ambiguity from sequences of words. And would imagine it was viewed as an useful evolution in the Macedonian language.

The definite article in all of its forms is definetly a useful feature in the Macedonian language, and quite distinctive too. Personally, I find that it confuses the hell out some Serbs and Croats I have spoken to in the past.

Originally Posted by Slovak

In OCS there exit words тъ, та, то which into English all three genders would simply be translated as "that". This words in it's three gender form evolved over time into the Macedonian and Bulgarian article. In other Slavic languages it remained a pronoun (in Slovak: ten, tá, to; in Serbian: taj, ta, to).

I am assuming that the 'тъ, та, то' in OCS was present at the beginning of the word, and then over time ended up being used at the end of the word, is that correct?

I have noticed that whether it is 'The child is here' or 'Child is here', the same is written in all of the Slavic languages except those that have the definite article on the noun.

The child is here. (English)
Deteto e tuka. (Macedonian) -- Dete e tuka = Child is here.
Dijete je ovdje. (Croat)
Otrok je tukaj. (Slovene)
Dieťa je tu. (Slovak)


Given that this feature is spread in Albania and Romania (although the Albanian and Romanian definite articles are more similar to each other than to that of Slavonic), the historical contacts between Macedonia-Epirus (and Albania) and Bulgaria-Romania (Thrace-Dacia), and the fact that Slavonic tongues were surely spoken to a large degree in these areas also, is there a possibility that the Albanians and Romanians have adopted this feature from Slavonic?

Also Slovak, let us hear your thoughts on this:

Originally Posted by Slovak

Slovak, do you agree or disagree with Mario Allinei's assertion that South Slavic shares features with both West and East Slavic, and therefore is oldest of the three? Please give us your reasons either way.

[Delodephius]

West and East also share features between each other that they don't share with the South. And each groups has its own unique features that it doesn't share with the other two. I can't agree with Alinei since I don't know his arguments, only his statement.

[Risto the Great]

The child is here. (English)
Deteto e tuka. (Macedonian) -- Dete e tuka = Child is here.
Dijete je ovdje. (Croat)
Otrok je tukaj. (Slovene)
Dieťa je tu. (Slovak)

With my Macedonian coloured glasses on, I say the Macedonian version offers the most complete description and is therefore superior.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The Macedonian version certainly provides a more complete description, and it can be further elaborated by using the other definite articles present only in the Macedonian dialects:

Deteto e tuka = The child is here.
Detevo e tuka = This (near) child is here.
Deteno e tuka = That (far) child is here.

[Delodephius]

Yes, but Macedonian lacks cases and hence it needs to use longer forms to express something it would take only one word in other Slavic languages to describe precisely. The very existence of articles is based on the lack of cases.
Hungarian or Finnish for instance have dozen more cases than Slavic languages and can describe the location of an object or person to it's exact position of another object or person (below, behind, on the surface, etc.) not just the distance (near, far, not present, etc.) with a single noun(!). But they don't have articles or even genders. You don't get something for nothing, you know what I'm saying.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Slovak

Yes, but Macedonian lacks cases and hence it needs to use longer forms to express something it would take only one word in other Slavic languages to describe precisely. The very existence of articles is based on the lack of cases.

That makes sense Slovak. The Macedonian dialects have not lost all of their cases have they? I though this was mainly restricted to the standardised literary language.

Can you show us an example of all the various cases in Serbian?

Are they the same, and as numerous, as in the Slovak language?

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.studyserbian.com/proba/Gr...eclensions.pdf


SINGULAR
Nominative: žena
Accusative: ženu
Genitive: žene
Dative/Locative: ženi
Instrumental: ženom
Vocative: ženo

PLURAL
Nominative: žene
Accusative: žene
Genitive: žena
Dative/Locative: ženama
Instrumental: ženama
Vocative: žene


More common among the older generations, cases in Macedonian can be found when one would say Odime vo Prilepa Grada as opposed to Odime vo Gradot Prilep, I believe that would be 'locative'. Another case which Macedonian would also have is 'vocative', where in Serbian it would be "pevaj, devojchice", whereas in Macedonian it is "Pej, devojchence".

There is also the Odime kaj Branka as opposed to Odime kaj Branko. Come to think of it, whether or not Kje is added I don't think that would change the meaning of that sentence, because Kje Odime kaj Branko and Odime kaj Branko basically means the same thing.

How about when Macedonians use words which are directed at a person being spoken to, such as Kralu and Krale instead of Kral, Mazhu instead of Mazh, Zheno instead of Zhena, Prijatele instead of Prijatel, Kralice or Kralico instead of Kralica, are these classified as cases, and if so, what kind? Accusative, Vocative?

Appreciate your help on this one.

[Sarafot]

Tray Slovenian

Kdo ali kaj-Žena
Koga ali česa-Žene
Komu ali čemu-Ženi
Koga ali kaj -Ženo
pri kom ali pri čem-pri Ženi
s kom ali s čim-z Ženo

Slovenian is hardest of all slavic,they also have duality-dvojina

Jaz -ti -on
Midva -vidva -onadva
Mi-vi.oni

So two women will be like this

Ženi
Žen
Ženi
Ženi
Ženah
Ženama

[Delodephius]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

How about when Macedonians use words which are directed at a person being spoken to, such as Kralu and Krale instead of Kral, Mazhu instead of Mazh, Zheno instead of Zhena, Prijatele instead of Prijatel, Kralice or Kralico instead of Kralica, are these classified as cases, and if so, what kind? Accusative, Vocative?

Appreciate your help on this one.

That would be Vocative, the addressing case.

Each case has a question attached to, though in English the question for each case might vary, in Slavic language they are pretty much of the same form:
Nominative (who?, what?)
Genitive (of/from who?, of/from what?)
Dative (to who?, to what?)
Accusative (of who?, what?)
Vocative (who!, what!)
Instrumental (with who?, with what?)
Locative (at/about who?, at/about what?)

In Russian, Locative is called the Prepositional case because it never stands alone without a preposition, which is true for all Slavic languages since prepositions determine the exact position of where an object is located. In some, like Serbian, the suffix for Locative is the same as for Dative, but the accent is different.

Let's try something different. Declension for Upper Sorbian:

nan - father

Sg.
N nan-ø (zero morpheme)
G nana
D nanej
A nana*
V nano!
L nanje
I nanom

*In all Slavic languages the Accusative case singular masculine is equal to Nominative if it's inanimate or Genitive if it is animate.

Du.
N,V nanaj
G,A nanow
D,L,I nanomaj

Pl.
N nanojo
G nanow
D nanam
A nanow
V nanojo!
L nanach
I nanami

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for that information Slovak, rarely can your knowledge on the Slavonic tongues and dialects be questioned!

So basing on what Sarafot and yourself have just posted with regard to the Slovene and Upper Sorbian languages, is it a fair to assume that only these two members of the Slavonic language group have the 'dual' declension? I knew that Slovenian had this feature present, are there any more apart from Upper Sorbian, some sub-dialects or regional?