Who were the Sons of Javan?

[Gocka]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

I've only given it a very cursory look. But I agree, it is astonishing...I really don't an answer for it other than I've just never gotten around to it.

Please, I beg of anyone who knows him on a personal level to smack him as hard as you can next time you see him.

This ought to be a sin if you ask me.

I was actually thinking about the same thing the other day (looking at Macedonia from a biblical perspective) after a lady at work told me she is familiar with the Macedonians from the bible. I knew there some passages about Paul and Macedonia but the Javan thing I know nothing about

[Constellation]

Originally Posted by DraganOfStip

The Ten Commandments were "written" by God.
However,God did not just take pen and paper and wrote what you read in today's Bible.The Bible was written by many people and there were also many texts that also aren't included in what we know as today's Bible (the Gnostic gospels etc.)
The Old Testament and the New Testament are only a small part of texts about Christianity,they're the texts that the church approves.

Dragan, precious one, I do not need a Bible lesson from you and your puerile polemics about hidden books, including gnosticism. This is DaVinci Code propaganda best left to the unlettered.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Constellation

This is DaVinci Code propaganda best left to the unlettered.

He's right Dragan.

[Bill77]

Constellation.......here is what I can come up with for now.


HELLENE

Firstly, lets begin with getting an understanding of the word " Hellene" a retrospective view on this word would shed some light in understanding the dilemma we have regarding the inaccuracy we face concerning history and the course it has taken. The understanding of the word "Hellene" is beneficial to the discussion regarding the subject descendants of Noah. It's part of the puzzle which you will see fall into place later in my post.

It's a misconception to associate the meaning between modern Greek and that what was meant in ancient times. There has been much discussion backed with ample of evidence in this forum regarding the contrast between the two. You would have to do the search yourself on this subject, as this post will be quite long and could get a bit tiresome as it is, without covering and repeating the great magnitude of evidence available.

Let's delve a little for the sake of getting a important taste of the meaning behind "Hellene"
Since biblical scriptures is the source we are referring to on this matter of "descendants of Javan" it's only fair we use the same information source to get our understanding on Hellene.

There are many instances in the Bible where "Hellene" (Greeks) ..is mentioned. The term "Hellene" (Greek) usually refers to a non-Christian and non-Jew of a Pagan belief, or a higher cultural distinction when ranged against a ‘barbarian’. It's not used in an ethnic sense.

Please check.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...=Romans+1%3A14


JAVAN

As you probably already know, "Javan" was also known by the Greek name as "Ion"
is thus the progenitor of the Ionians found in western Asia Minor (in modern Turkey)
Now what is important in history re "Ionia"? For it was here that Western philosophy and science were born. The Ionian Enlightenment ....... where civilisation broke the link between religion and science and established a new discipline for systematic attempts to understand and explain nature. The new discipline was called philosophy, literally "love of wisdom", and science was part of it. A place where local Ancient scholars kept religion out of science. It was believed that religion was not suitable as a tool to explain the natural world.
NOTE........ What I wrote above about the true meaning of Hellene.


KITTIM

Now the descendent of Javan "Kittim", which there seems to be a lot of speculation about. It's plausible many nations can rightfully claim to be descendants of "Kittim" ie: Macedonians, Greeks, Romans, ..... "Yet"......be unrelated, come from different racial stock, spoke different languages.

The archaeologist and classical scholar Emily Vermeule on the migrations out of Anatolia or Asia Minor.

A variety of movements spread from Anatolia across the Aegean islands … Crete perhaps received a group of Anatolian sailors, and Anatolians certainly settled the largely unexplored mounds of Macedonia and Thessaly. They were not all the same racial stock … nor did they speak precisely the same language or make the same objects (Greece in the Bronze Age, University of Chicago Press, 1964, p. 26).

When "Kittim" is mentioned in scriptures, it would be reference to tribes rather than a individual. The word "Descendants" would be figurative, rather than literal.... Meaning once inhabited the land (or born on the land) of Javan prior to making their move west, not necessarily came literally from a human (Javans) seed.
Just like In modern days, where some call a place of residence or place of birth "Fatherland".

So to recap....Javan (Land which bears the name of the first settler) the progenitor (born or inhabited the area) of the Ionians also known as Javanians or Kittims (A blend of Numerous tribes, different racial stock, who spoke different languages) found in western Asia Minor (Anatolia).

Its true the label Kittim or "Javanites" was also given to Macedonians

The medieval, rabbinic Book of Jasher further states: “And the children of Javan are the Javanim who dwell in the land of Makdonia”, i.e. the Macedonians, from whom arose Alexander the Great (10:13).

Same label was given to Romans

Romans near the river Tiber are thus said to be descendants of the Kittim. In Chapter 60 of Jasher, the island of Sardinia is also associated with the Kittim or Chittim. Further, in Jasher 61:23-25 it is said that while Zepho was king of the Kittim and after having defeated the ‘troops of Africa’, he led his people so that “they made war with Tubal and the islands, and they subdued them and when they returned from the battle they renewed his government for him, and they built for him a very large palace for his royal habitation and seat, and they made a large throne for him, and Zepho reigned over the whole land of Chittim and over the land of Italia fifty years”.

Again, KITTIM would have be given to any tribe irrespective of race or language spoken. But question is why put them under one umbrella when they come from different race and spoke different languages.......What's the reason?

The following facts concerning the Kittim are found in the Habakkuk Commentary: they are fleet and heroes in warfare (ii.12f.), feared by people whose cities they plunder (iii.1f., 4f.); they are cunning and deceitful (iii.5f.) and do not believe in the statutes of God (ii.14f.). They come from afar from the isles in the sea (or: the coastlands) (iii.10f.); they scorn the fortresses of the peoples (iv.5f.) and their rulers (moselim) come one after another to destroy the earth (or: the country) (iv.12f.). They gather wealth and loot as abundant as the fish of the sea (vi.1f.), and they sacrifice to their standards and worship their weapons (vi.3f.). They are cruel and merciless and “destroy many with the sword, youths, men and old men, women and small children and toward the fruit of the womb they have no compassion” (vi.10-12). And finally it is said the “Jerusalem’s last priests” with all their riches and spoils shall be delivered into the hands of the Kittim “because they are the ‘remnant of the peoples’” (ix.4-7, commentary on Hab. 2:7f.).

It is important to note the uses of the word Kittim in the War Scroll, where it occurs eighteen times in all. … It seems probable that the Kittim here is not an actual name of a particular people, but is a designation of all the peoples who are enemies of Israel, God’s chosen people. (Fortress Press, Philadelphia, USA, 1963; pp. 26-31; emphasis added).

Just like later on Where a "Hellene" is known as someone accepting the "The Ionian Enlightenment" who challenged (what they perceived) the flawed morality of the gods, where scientific outlook uprooted superstition and replaced it with natural explanations.
another words (had forsaken God)..........."KITTIM" also was a designation based on people opposed to God and or the views of his followers.

Interesting if you Notice what both Kittim and Hellene have in common? Both branched out (descended) from "Ionia"
You can see why today they would put one and one together, then inaccurately conclude and label them as the same, as in racial stock and language then bizarrely associate Modern Greeks who are opposite to the true historical meaning of a Hellene, by this I mean they claim to be followers of God and infact inheritors of the Byzantium empire, the birth place of Orthodox Christianity one of the largest practiced religion group in the modern world.

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Constellation

Dragan, precious one, I do not need a Bible lesson from you

I am not giving you a lesson,you said that you believe the Bible is the word of God and I just wrote that it can't be,since He didn't write it.
Don't twist my words.

and your puerile polemics about hidden books, including gnosticism. This is DaVinci Code propaganda best left to the unlettered.

Twisting my words again.
I'm not pushing DaVinci Code propaganda,I was just complementing my previous statement that God didn't wrote the Bible.
The Gnostic gospels,the gospel of Judas...are just a part of Christianity scripts that weren't included in the "official" Bible as we know it today.
The church wouldn't do that if the scripts were written by God himself,would it?
It would be a blasphemy at the highest level.
Here's something from www.biblica.com :

Many people contributed to the writing of the Bible. Actually, the Bible is a collection of writings from about forty contributors, thirty in the Old Testament and ten in the New Testament. For example, the Psalms are a collection of the works of several authors, of whom David, the "sweet singer of Israel", is the best known. But psalms were also written by Moses, by Asaph, by a man named Ethan, and by the sons of Korah.

Early Christianity wasn't just ONE teaching,ONE religion.There were many versions propagated by various people ("Life of Brian" by Monty Python,as anathemised by the church as it may be,presents a very accurate picture of the chaos in Christianity at the early stages,or at least many historians agree so),most had Holy Scripts that used to teach their version.In time some prevailed and some faded away,depending on the number of followers.The scripts of those that vanished were destroyed or banned by the churh.


You say people here have the tendency of misinterpreting your posts while you're doing the very same yourself.

[Constellation]

Originally Posted by DraganOfStip

I am not giving you a lesson,you said that you believe the Bible is the word of God and I just wrote that it can't be,since He didn't write it.

This is called a lesson.

I'm not pushing DaVinci Code propaganda,I was just complementing my previous statement that God didn't wrote the Bible.
The Gnostic gospels,the gospel of Judas...are just a part of Christianity scripts that weren't included in the "official" Bible as we know it today.
The church wouldn't do that if the scripts were written by God himself,would it?
It would be a blasphemy at the highest level.

This is also called a lesson. And, yes, essentially, pushing a gnostic interpretation of the history of the church. Also known as DaVinci Code propaganda.

Here's something from www.biblica.com :

Early Christianity wasn't just ONE teaching,ONE religion.There were many versions propagated by various people ("Life of Brian" by Monty Python,as anathemised by the church as it may be,presents a very accurate picture of the chaos in Christianity at the early stages,or at least many historians agree so),most had Holy Scripts that used to teach their version.In time some prevailed and some faded away,depending on the number of followers.The scripts of those that vanished were destroyed or banned by the churh.

This is also called a lesson. I would add that when people speak about "God writing the Bible", they do not mean that a complete collection of writings fell from the sky with God's fingerprints. The scriptural phrase is "God breathed", which means that when the writers of the Bible wrote books, the were guided by the Holy Spirit. Thus, God breathed the sacred writings via the pens of men. You do not have to believe this. All I ask is fair characterization.

You say people here have the tendency of misinterpreting your posts while you're doing the very same yourself.

Not accurate at all.

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Constellation

This is called a lesson.

This is also called a lesson.

Now,you're either just being ignorant or you need to update your definition of "a lesson".
No further comment.

Originally Posted by Constellation

And, yes, essentially, pushing a gnostic interpretation of the history of the church. Also known as DaVinci Code propaganda.

Once again,twisting my words.
Are you an inquisitor now as well?What are you going to do,burn me at the pyre?

Originally Posted by Constellation

This is also called a lesson.

No it is not,it is called "a historical fact".Early Christianity was not one teaching,and it is a fact,not a lesson.There are many evidences that prove this.

Originally Posted by Constellation

I would add that when people speak about "God writing the Bible", they do not mean that a complete collection of writings fell from the sky with God's fingerprints. The scriptural phrase is "God breathed", which means that when the writers of the Bible wrote books, the were guided by the Holy Spirit. Thus, God breathed the sacred writings via the pens of men. You do not have to believe this. All I ask is fair characterization.

Isn't this what YOU would call "a lesson"?
Whether or not the people that wrote it were "guided" by God (or the Holy Spirit as you say) is something I will not discuss here.I rest my case regarding this.

Originally Posted by Constellation

Not accurate at all.

Really?I think the very thing that you failed to see my point in this thread by default proves you do misinterpret posts.
I reply on one of your posts about the Bible being the word of God,and you label me as a gnostic propagator.
if that's not misinterpretation then I don't know what is.

[George S.]

constellation are you a doubting Thomas when it comes to the bible.History records that everything that the bible talks about is true.It is supposed to be the word of god.Are you doubting that????Then you are a non believer a heathen and you must be bought to account.You are lazy and not willing to learn one lesson of the bible???Dragan is trying to do you a favour the least you could give him is the curtesy.Also if you are not admitting to your sins then you really are a heathen and not a Christian.
I have noticed that on your threads you are going in circles from one subject to another religion seems one of them Why??Do you resent religion or what???

[Constellation]

Originally Posted by George S.

constellation are you a doubting Thomas when it comes to the bible.History records that everything that the bible talks about is true.It is supposed to be the word of god.Are you doubting that????Then you are a non believer a heathen and you must be bought to account.You are lazy and not willing to learn one lesson of the bible???Dragan is trying to do you a favour the least you could give him is the curtesy.Also if you are not admitting to your sins then you really are a heathen and not a Christian.
I have noticed that on your threads you are going in circles from one subject to another religion seems one of them Why??Do you resent religion or what???

George, I love you man, but you have some really serious problems. You really need professional help. I do not think it possible for a child to derive the conclusions you have derived by reading this thread.

Perhaps you should re-read this thread.

[George S.]

coellation you are a dope of the highest order you said to dibble os that you don't believe god wrote the bible. You just make up as you go.Thats why you can't have aserious discussion as you won't listen to one lesson of the bible.Dragan trying to help you give him the curtesy at least.You are putting your own interpretation that'shristianity your version is supposed to be better. all.THe vibes you are sending is you don't believe in traditional cnristianity.Your a sad case for the psychologist.