Macedonian Think tank!

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by freifrau

Bratot..what if it is officialy agreed the following:

Vardar Macedonia -> Macedonians ->Macedonian Language ???

As I explained already, any change in the name will erode Macedonian identity and Macedonia with it's changed name will cease as a national cradle of Macedonians.

Here are the main points of Greek agenda described by Andonis Samaras who was minister in the Greek Government 1989-1992, in the interview he made for Ekathimerini in mart 2008:

1. “FYROM essentially stopped being a “national cradle of Macedonians” and became a multi-ethnic state with two separate ethnic components.“

2.“What we question from abroad – the existence of an ethnic state of “Macedonians”“

3. “For Skopje today, the dilemma is whether it will break up or whether – as some are claiming – it will be transformed into a loose multi-ethnic federation!“


His conclussion and the purpose of the Greek agenda:
“In every case, the “Macedonian idea” will have been defeated once and for all.“

Samaras even went that far to admit the well planned VETO before it occured on the NATO summit in Bucurest as a necessarity to:

“ Such an outcome could prove beneficial to Greece, since when the Karamanlis government leaves Skopje out of NATO it will be Skopje’s responsibility. And we will gain time.“

Do I need to explain further why they need more time to gain?


The whole interview here:
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../03/2008_94483


I wont even get into discussion over this or other potential name change and I will suggest you not to indulge yourself into such possibility.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by freifrau

Bratot..what if it is officialy agreed the following:

Vardar Macedonia -> Macedonians ->Macedonian Language ???

What if a country presupposes it has sovereign rights and is:
Macedonia -> Macedonians ->Macedonian Language ?

FF, you sound like an EU politician.

[makedonche]

Originally Posted by freifrau

Bratot..what if it is officialy agreed the following:

Vardar Macedonia -> Macedonians ->Macedonian Language ???

FF
Oficially? who is the appointed official?
Okay lets play your game - if it's officially agreed by all of those people it will affect then by all means go right ahead! Firstly do me the courtesy of asking everyone who will be affected by this, if they agree to it!
You see I am one of those who will be affected and I don't consent to anybody changing my identity, therefore there is no need to ask anyone else because in order to change everyone's identity you will need everyone's individual consent! As long as there is one Macedonian who does not consent to this it will never be official or sanctioned!

[freifrau]

Originally Posted by makedonche

FF
Oficially? who is the appointed official?
Okay lets play your game - if it's officially agreed by all of those people it will affect then by all means go right ahead! Firstly do me the courtesy of asking everyone who will be affected by this, if they agree to it!
You see I am one of those who will be affected and I don't consent to anybody changing my identity, therefore there is no need to ask anyone else because in order to change everyone's identity you will need everyone's individual consent! As long as there is one Macedonian who does not consent to this it will never be official or sanctioned!

Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!
The issue wasnt solved for 20 years,i can't solve it passing from a forum
I just wonder if that could be accepted.
I mean,this seems to me some 90% close to the Macedonian prespective (i may be wrong or not..that's my view) ,as long as Macedonia holds on negotiating.

I mean,when a country is on negotiating table for 20 years,when all the elected governments do not draw from it,then for me sounds logical,that they want a profitable compromise.
The government and subsequently the majority of the people who continue voting for them.

If the prespective was "Macedonia-Macedonians-Macedonian language" with no compromise at all,they would have left the conversation immediately.
This is the message i get.
Cold hard facts..

Or am i wrong ?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by freifrau

Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!
The issue wasnt solved for 20 years,i can't solve it passing from a forum
I just wonder if that could be accepted.
I mean,this seems to me some 90% close to the Macedonian prespective (i may be wrong or not..that's my view) ,as long as Macedonia holds on negotiating.

I mean,when a country is on negotiating table for 20 years,when all the elected governments do not draw from it,then for me sounds logical,that they want a profitable compromise.
The government and subsequently the majority of the people who continue voting for them.

If the prespective was "Macedonia-Macedonians-Macedonian language" with no compromise at all,they would have left the conversation immediately.
This is the message i get.
Cold hard facts..

Or am i wrong ?

If you're looking for the acceptance of compromise you've stopped at the wrong forum, poster after poster has made that perfectly clear and this forum sits as a microcosm of the views of the wider Macedonian community...if the subject matter continues to perplex you I suggest that you don't share the empathy of the vast majority of members here and it might be best for you to move on...because I for one am getting pretty fuckin' tired of your bullshit.

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

What if a country presupposes it has sovereign rights and is:
Macedonia -> Macedonians ->Macedonian Language ?

FF, you sound like an EU politician.

Originally Posted by freifrau

Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!
The issue wasnt solved for 20 years,i can't solve it passing from a forum
I just wonder if that could be accepted.
I mean,this seems to me some 90% close to the Macedonian prespective (i may be wrong or not..that's my view) ,as long as Macedonia holds on negotiating.

I mean,when a country is on negotiating table for 20 years,when all the elected governments do not draw from it,then for me sounds logical,that they want a profitable compromise.
The government and subsequently the majority of the people who continue voting for them.

If the prespective was "Macedonia-Macedonians-Macedonian language" with no compromise at all,they would have left the conversation immediately.
This is the message i get.
Cold hard facts..

Or am i wrong ?

The people vote from a much wider spectrum of interests, it's not only the "name issue" a problem in Macedonia, but also the unemployment, economy in general, that's why you can not reduce everything in order to pull out such conclussion.
Therefore you are wrong.

Also it is worth to mention that the main reason why the current government won the elections is because they used the patriotic feeling of Macedonians in their wish not to change the name.
But politicians are only politicians, we don't trust them, since mostly they are just puppets of their EU bosses and they will rather ignore the people.
It's sad I know, but that is the reality in my country and I don't think we are the only such example, would you agree?

The Greek claim to support their fascistic policy was based on our name as a potential territorial claim to their part of Macedonia.
But as you mentioned, 20 years already passed and this claim was exposed as a lie since we are still Macedonia and our existance only helped in preserving stable Balkans.

Those 20 years according to your logic could mean also the very opposite meaning, why there isn't any solution yet and why EU and NATO went that far to blackmail us to change our name if we want to join them.

And if there is:

Macedonian language - > Macedonians -> than why not and Macedonia?

Don't forget that any pressure on us to change our name directly violates the basic Human Rights guaranteed by the UN.

[freifrau]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

If you're looking for the acceptance of compromise you've stopped at the wrong forum, poster after poster has made that perfectly clear and this forum sits as a microcosm of the views of the wider Macedonian community...if the subject matter continues to perplex you I suggest that you don't share the empathy of the vast majority of members here and it might be best for you to move on...because I for one am getting pretty fuckin' tired of your bullshit.

I am seeking for compromise???

I am telling the Macedonian governments the last 20 years are negotiating=seeking for compromise.
Do you doubt it?

I believe that there are members here who can look beyond their nose and have an open conversation..unfortunately you cannot...

[freifrau]

Originally Posted by Bratot

The people vote from a much wider spectrum of interests, it's not only the "name issue" a problem in Macedonia, but also the unemployment, economy in general, that's why you can not reduce everything in order to pull out such conclussion.

Yes ,in this case you are right..but this also means that the everyday problems may be more serious for the citizens of R.of Macedonia.

But politicians are only politicians, we don't trust them, since mostly they are just puppets of their EU bosses and they will rather ignore the people.
It's sad I know, but that is the reality in my country and I don't think we are the only such example, would you agree?

It is something in between i guess...they cannot totally ignore the public's opinion in a democracy,but they can manipulate it,overcome it or just draw the attention by presenting another issue.

And if there is:

Macedonian language - > Macedonians -> than why not and Macedonia?

Don't forget that any pressure on us to change our name directly violates the basic Human Rights guaranteed by the UN.

I have already stated my opinion that i fully agree on that.,..but outside there, politics rule.
Either someone accepts it ,or like some people above closes his eyes and yells like a brave internet warrior.
So either you accept the rules and you negotiate ,or you stop it and have the consequences.Bad or well.

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by freifrau

Yes ,in this case you are right..but this also means that the everyday problems may be more serious for the citizens of R.of Macedonia.

It's like you are also implying that if we change our name it will solve our everyday problems!?

Just stop measuring the logical necessity of the citizens with the imposed compromise on their identity.

So either you accept the rules and you negotiate ,or you stop it and have the consequences.Bad or well.

That's why we are calling to stop the negotiations and to cease the Interim Accord.

So we do agree on this and that's why we don't support any government.

Sometmes it's better to live with consequences than guilt.

[Rogi]

ff,

Two-thirds (2/3) of the United Nations Member States, recognise Macedonia under its' rightful name, they recognise the Macedonian people by their rightful name and they recognise the Macedonian language by its' rightful name.

The rest of the United Nations Member States are yet to develop diplomatic relations with the Republic of Macedonia, though none of them are expected to have any problems with Macedonia's name, people or language.

In fact, in all of the world, only one State has a problem with Macedonia's name, Macedonia's people and Macedonia's language; that State is Greece.

You are here promoting Machiavellian politics and the argument of force, as opposed to the force of argument. In a post WWII society, where the entire world adopted a Declaration on Human Rights, one must have faith in the notion of ethics and morality playing a role in the policy and politics of the international community, as opposed to the old zero-sum politics of the 19th century.

Whilst you are here declaring that power rules, whilst what is Right must suffer, we oppose your assessment and what is your reality and we cannot remain anything other than principled in our positions of support for a civilised world where justice and the internationally accepted principles and norms, prevail.

We are cognisant of the fact that Greece is playing a Machiavellian game, we are aware of the consequences of us remaining principled in positions, yet we will continue to persist and persevere. Why? Because we refused to be eradicated both physically (as was the case 60 years ago), or on paper (as are the attempt today) and we will not allow our very existence to be removed from history.

You talk of compromise, because you are unaffected by the matter, whereas what you see as a compromise on the part of the Macedonian people, is in effect an acceptance by the Macedonian people to be an accessory to what we can only see as the worst crime of humanity; the elimination of an entire nation, or ethnocide. You ask the Macedonians to assist in ridding the world of Macedonians, in name and in form, and you term it with the word 'compromise'.

There has already been a huge, excessive and dangerous compromise on the part of the Macedonian people already, the Macedonian Government has proposed a double-name formula. With that proposal, Macedonia would remain Macedonia, Macedonians, Macedonian for the entire world, whilst Greece would refer to Macedonia with another name. The compromise here is that the Macedonians have allowed and accepted to be continually and forever disrespected, in name and in form, by Greece. That in itself is something most reasonable and civilised people would find to be far too excessive, far too generous and down-right unacceptable. Could you imagine agreeing, and signing a document, allowing your neighbour to abuse you every time he see's you? That is the compromise Macedonia is willing to make, and that is already far too much.

Perhaps you might be able to share any 'compromise' on the part of Greece? Anything of substance? In fact, perhaps you could share the actual concerns that Greece has which are at all substantive and valid? I am yet to find any such grievance, nor is there any such grievance, nor, if there were, would that justify this policy and attempt to rid the world of its' Macedonians.

Imagine, all the Macedonains are asking of the world, nay pleading with the world, is to allow them to exist. Yet, inexplicably, Macedonia is being pressured to give up its' Right to exist and more voice is being given to Greece, the State which seeks to eliminate the Macedonians; changing their name is an extremely huge step in doing exactly that.

Finally, on your argument that the Macedonian people, living with difficult financial circumstances in the Republic of Macedonia, are prepared to give up their name and identity - please note that all polls to date have shown that well over 90% of all ethnic Macedonians absolutely oppose membership to the European Union and NATO, if the requirement is a change in Macedonia's name. That is a price all Macedonians deem to be far too dear and downright disrespectful.