Goce Delchev's legacy

[aleksandrov]

Delchev defines what he means by "moral" revolution in the quote itself as a "revolution of the mind, heart and soul [which might also be translated as spirit]". He is referring to both intellect and character.

[Pavel]

delchev often talked about the importance of the revolution (first the moral and then the physical practical) occurring inside Macedonia, among the people who actually live inside macedonia. this was in the context of trying to stop the interference of foreign governments and also of diaspora groups located in sofia, belgrade and athens. one of the premises was in other words that the you can't make a revolution from outside. true victory could only be attained by living among the people in macedonia because that would demonstrate that you are serious by the fact that you are prepared to share their difficulties and their plight etc.

some historians have pointed out how imro lost credibility in the eyes of the people after the ilinden uprising because many of imro's leaders did not remain in macedonia to face the horrific aftermath, but instead ran off to comfort in bulgaria etc.

as someone who lives in the diaspora among many others from the diaspora on this forum, i often find myself wondering whether or not we are sometimes too harsh on those in macedonia from our comparatively comfortable homes here in the "west".

how many of us who are urging macedonians in macedonia to be tougher and more vigilant and i have even seen some people here say things like for them to be prepared to fight a war; would be willing to live in macedonia so that they could show that they are prepared to live in their conditions and take whatever comes? how many of us here were willing to go fight 10 years ago?

how many of us are willing to take up delchev's advice on the internal (vnatreshna) revolution? is his point valid today?

[Risto the Great]

Pavle, his point is equally valid today as it was 100 years ago.
Nobody is asking Macedonian inside Macedonia to go to war. Pleading and encouraging them to embrace a revolution in mindset is all that is necessary. Surely we have enough examples now to make the case clear. All the EU member states are still defined by their previous identities, the small time lazy Greeks, the rich Germans etc. Nothing has changed other than the diminished sovereignty for all of the member countries. Why can't Macedonians assess all options with new eyes?

Only as recently as last week was the 2001 conflict openly described as "war" by international courts. I remember back in 2001. It was not "sold" as a war back then. It was a few naughty ethnic Albanians that needed to be sorted out. It is a difficult example to work with.

[Pavel]

"Why can't Macedonians assess all options with new eyes?" Risto, that is a very good question, I don't know the answer. however, delchev's point was that if somebody wants to contribute to the moral revolution of macedonians, so that they begin looking at options with new eyes, then they need to go and do it inside macedonia. it is from there that they will be taken seriously; it is by living in macedonia that they will truly understand the mindset of the average macedonian and be in a real position to influence it on a day to day basis. this was delchev's point and if it is valid today, then many of us who are concerned, might need to think about relocating....maybe....

i have to confess that i am not prepared to do that, but then i am more measured in my criticism of the macedonians in macedonia than others here. i save my real fire for the countries and institutions that are trying to destroy macedonia...grease, vulgaria, eu, un, usa etc. this does not mean that we shouldn't criticise poor decisions made by macedonians too; but like i said sometimes the ferocity of it makes me wonder about what delchev said. you know, if you really want to make a difference over there, then you need to be there....

i know Risto that you have not said anything about being ready to fight a war, but others here have...are they prepared to take delchev's advice?

[aleksandrov]

Originally Posted by Pavel

delchev often talked about the importance of the revolution (first the moral and then the physical practical) occurring inside Macedonia, among the people who actually live inside macedonia. this was in the context of trying to stop the interference of foreign governments and also of diaspora groups located in sofia, belgrade and athens. one of the premises was in other words that the you can't make a revolution from outside. true victory could only be attained by living among the people in macedonia because that would demonstrate that you are serious by the fact that you are prepared to share their difficulties and their plight etc.

some historians have pointed out how imro lost credibility in the eyes of the people after the ilinden uprising because many of imro's leaders did not remain in macedonia to face the horrific aftermath, but instead ran off to comfort in bulgaria etc.

as someone who lives in the diaspora among many others from the diaspora on this forum, i often find myself wondering whether or not we are sometimes too harsh on those in macedonia from our comparatively comfortable homes here in the "west".

how many of us who are urging macedonians in macedonia to be tougher and more vigilant and i have even seen some people here say things like for them to be prepared to fight a war; would be willing to live in macedonia so that they could show that they are prepared to live in their conditions and take whatever comes? how many of us here were willing to go fight 10 years ago?

how many of us are willing to take up delchev's advice on the internal (vnatreshna) revolution? is is his point valid today?

The focus on the INTERNAL revolution was a based on his belief that without self-reliance people will just swap one slavery for another. He makes this more clear in other quotes that I will post later, as well as one that I have already posted on page one of this thread:

"Grizhete se da ja iskorenite taa slabost [chekanata pomosh odnadvor] i od najzabludeniot strashlivec, pa namesto toa, neka se rodi nepobedlivata sila na samodejnosta i reshitelnosta i togash veruvajte, sekoj eden kje se bori dokraj so najgolema zhestokost...." Goce Delchev, 17 Oktomvri 1895

"Take care to root out that weakness [the expectation of foreign help] even from the most deluded coward, and instead of that, let there be born the unbeatable power of self-reliance and decisiveness, and then, rest assured, everyone will fight to the end most vehemently..."

He held and preached the same convictions when he was himself working for the cause from the Diaspora i.e. from Bulgaria.

I don't see much criticism of Macedonians in Macedonia who are trying to be self-reliant. Most criticisms are directed at those who continue to live as moral slaves, on the false promises and false hopes of foreign protection, assistance and blessings.

[Pavel]

"The focus on the INTERNAL revolution was a based on his belief that without self-reliance people will just swap one slavery for another."

"He held and preached the same convictions when he was himself working for the cause from the Diaspora i.e. from Bulgaria."

true, but this was not all he meant by internal. he also meant that you had to be "internal" (vnatre) in order to make a difference, because that's where the problem was and also because you had to be 'inside' to truly understand the conditions, so that then you would have a better idea of what to do. he often went to sofia precisely to criticise those diaspora groups and people who weren't "internal", part of the internal movement, because as such they would often criticise and make suggestions that were not informed, exactly because they didn't work and agitate "internally".

"i can see that all of you do not know the conditions in macedonia and that's why you should tell everyone, tell them all, not to interfere and leave the internal organisation to organise, to lead, to decide. we thought that from you, from the committee (in sofia) and the emigrants that we would receive brotherly aid. but understand, we are not looking for patrons, and even less, masters." feb 1896 delchev in a letter to general nikolaev.

we don't want, in other words, masters from outside, especially emigres in the diaspora, to tell us inside what to do.

i suppose one way of using this today would be for us in the diaspora to measure our comments towards macedonians in macedonia a little better than we sometimes do. keep up the constructive criticism, though perhaps place it in language that is more measured. that way people over there in macedonia are more likely to listen ( whether they are "moral slaves" or not and actually people everywhere are more likely to listen).

though the question still remains, do more of us need to go 'internal' to really understand and make a difference? delchev would probably say yes if he were alive....

[aleksandrov]

Pavel,

You seem to be confusing support for Macedonians within Macedonia who might want to lead a revolution with refraining from criticism of those who choose to remain slaves to foreign hegemony. Like I posted earlier:

"I don't see much criticism of Macedonians in Macedonia who are trying to be self-reliant. Most criticisms are directed at those who continue to live as moral slaves, on the false promises and false hopes of foreign protection, assistance and blessings."

And Delchev didn't go to Sofia specifically to criticize Diaspora groups. He studied in Bulgaria and used it as a base for his revolutionary activity for a while. I believe he was the Internal Revolutionary Organisation's representative in Sofia for some time. He also sought to organize assistance from the Macedonian Diaspora there, as can be gathered from the quote you've posted.

[julie]

Moralnata revolucija – revolucijata vo umot, srceto i dushata na eden ropski narod, e najgolemata zadacha." Goce Delchev vo okruzhno pismo od 8-14 Mart 1901. (Hristo Andonov Poljanski, Goce Delchev - Kon osumdesetgodishninata od zaginuvanjeto na Goce Delchev, Istarska Naklada, Pula 1985, p. 206)

"The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________

So how do we empower our people in RoM , this is something that Gotse Delchev strove for, how do we get rid of the enslaved mindset they are in, accepting mediocroty and trade offs when he clearly was against that!

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by aleksandrov

Pavel,

You seem to be confusing support for Macedonians within Macedonia who might want to lead a revolution with refraining from criticism of those who choose to remain slaves to foreign hegemony. Like I posted earlier:

"I don't see much criticism of Macedonians in Macedonia who are trying to be self-reliant. Most criticisms are directed at those who continue to live as moral slaves, on the false promises and false hopes of foreign protection, assistance and blessings."

And Delchev didn't go to Sofia specifically to criticize Diaspora groups. He studied in Bulgaria and used it as a base for his revolutionary activity for a while. I believe he was the Internal Revolutionary Organisation's representative in Sofia for some time. He also sought to organize assistance from the Macedonian Diaspora there, as can be gathered from the quote you've posted.

i am not confusing anything. i did not say anything about "refraining" from criticism i said : "keep up the constructive criticism, though perhaps place it in language that is more measured. that way people over there in macedonia are more likely to listen ( whether they are "moral slaves" or not and actually people everywhere are more likely to listen)."

also i said about delchev that "he often went to sofia precisely to criticise those diaspora groups and people who weren't "internal", part of the internal movement, because as such they would often criticise and make suggestions that were not informed, exactly because they didn't work and agitate "internally"."

he did go there on occasions to participate in such debates, the memoirs of the imro revolutionaries make that absolutely clear. i did not claim that was his only reason for going there. this was not his only reason; yes he also often went there to organise financial support and shipments of arms.

"i can see that all of you do not know the conditions in macedonia and that's why you should tell everyone, tell them all, not to interfere and leave the internal organisation to organise, to lead, to decide. we thought that from you, from the committee (in sofia) and the emigrants that we would receive brotherly aid. but understand, we are not looking for patrons, and even less, masters." feb 1896 delchev in a letter to general nikolaev.

delchev on the importance of working internally.

though the question still remains, do more of us need to go 'internal' to really understand and make a difference? delchev would probably say yes if he were alive...

[blackcactus]

Originally Posted by Pavel

i am not confusing anything. i did not say anything about "refraining" from criticism i said : "keep up the constructive criticism, though perhaps place it in language that is more measured. that way people over there in macedonia are more likely to listen ( whether they are "moral slaves" or not and actually people everywhere are more likely to listen)."

also i said about delchev that "he often went to sofia precisely to criticise those diaspora groups and people who weren't "internal", part of the internal movement, because as such they would often criticise and make suggestions that were not informed, exactly because they didn't work and agitate "internally"."

he did go there on occasions to participate in such debates, the memoirs of the imro revolutionaries make that absolutely clear. i did not claim that was his only reason for going there. this was not his only reason; yes he also often went there to organise financial support and shipments of arms.

"i can see that all of you do not know the conditions in macedonia and that's why you should tell everyone, tell them all, not to interfere and leave the internal organisation to organise, to lead, to decide. we thought that from you, from the committee (in sofia) and the emigrants that we would receive brotherly aid. but understand, we are not looking for patrons, and even less, masters." feb 1896 delchev in a letter to general nikolaev.

delchev on the importance of working internally.

though the question still remains, do more of us need to go 'internal' to really understand and make a difference? delchev would probably say yes if he were alive...

Pavel your point makes perfect sense

It would be potent for the leaders of our struggle to actually live in Macedonia, to really influence change, to understand the people better

As for 'External' Macedonians, I feel our language does need to be more measured as not to alienate 'Internal' Macedonians to the struggle, or we may end up eroding any unity we think we have to our own detriment

IMO Delchev's wisdom is still relevant today