The Macedonian Sun & (Original) Flag

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by sf.

I am aware of assertions that have been made. In this context, I can understand the reasons.

Can you please elaborate? What exactly is understandable about the decision not to cite Karev in the anthem?

[indigen]

Спасе Шуплиновски: “...Токму во тоа време [1992] од Австралија (Сиднеј) пристигна Ефтим Ефтимов кој донесе од него патентирано Филипово знаме (црвено со златно 16-крако сонце во средината со розета од здравец исто како на каселата на Филип Македонски во Кутлеш)., Членот на Уставната комисија м-р Пандил Костурски го однесе тоа знаме на седница на комисијата. "Еве, имаме знаме, што бараме друго!" - рече....”

A little further info on the topic of how the 16-ray Macedonian Sun Flag came into being. Eftim Etimov made several trips to Macedonia to promote the flag prior to its adoption and his efforts eventually bore fruit, in one way or another.

[sf.]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Why? Why can't a political party have the same symbols as the national symbols?

Have you ever looked at Australian and American party symbols and their corresponding state symbols?

The Liberal Party of Australia has the entire Australian flag in its logo. The Australian Labor Party has the Southern Cross. Do we now have to change the Australian flag?

Political parties tend incorporate the existing symbolism into their logos/party symbols. In the case of the Liberal party, the flag is incorporated in a stylised 'L' with the word 'LIBERAL' under it. The flag takes up less than a quarter of the whole logo. In the case of the major American parties, there are popular representations for each party, but their official logos are quite different from the state symbols.

The Lion in the VMRO logo is dominant, and presented as a variation of the traditional coat of arms. As a state coat of arms, there will be very minor differences between the two. In such a situation, there is a danger that the party could become synonymous with the state and its institutions, and could be seen as being given an unfair political advantage. This needs to be avoided in a healthy democratic system.
And if you want to find examples, look nowhere else but to the communist countries where the party and the state are indistinguishable.

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Yes, the lion pre-dates VMRO.
It is a national symbol that a political party has adopted.
It does not mean it now is automatically excluded from being a relevant symbol to Macedonians.

I didn't say that it should be excluded as irreleveant. People are free to take pride in the symbol and use it. Personally I love it. But I am saying that currently, it should not be used as an official coat of arms. I would prefer for VMRO to modify their symbol greatly, as a precondition for the lion's coat of arms usage.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Can you please elaborate? What exactly is understandable about the decision not to cite Karev in the anthem?

From Keith Brown, The Past in Question: Modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation (2003): The story about how the Karev descendants in Krushevo were staunch Bulgarian supporters during WW2. Given that the anthem was written in this period, it is possible that the ommission of the Karev name was deliberate. At some later post-war stage, the family's history was 'forgotten/forgiven' and the Karev name was used by the authorities in their official history. The other possibility is that with so many heroes of the Macedonian struggle, only several promininent names were selected, to fit within those two lines. I can't confirm either possibility as fact, but wouldn't be surprised by the truth in them.

I would also like to say that I find freifrau stupid. When s/he affords us some respect, I will pay it back.

[julie]

sf, I agree with you , i also find freifrau stupid and insulting bratko, what do you expect from neo fascists closet Greek racists though?

[sf.]

julie, the clown questioned the purpose of this site and proceeded to demean us. The purpose of the MTO is clear. We are not here to indulge outsiders and be patronised by them. We are here to empower ourselves, as a first step in the long struggle faced by our people ahead. If others don't like this, then to quote you: "neka puknat."

Cheers

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by sf.

From Keith Brown, The Past in Question: Modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation (2003): The story about how the Karev descendants in Krushevo were staunch Bulgarian supporters during WW2.

Which story? Does Keith Brown go into any further detail?

My family is well familiar with the Karevci in Krushevo, they are anything but sellouts. I have heard of accusations made by komunjari against Nikola's brother as an apparent 'bugarash', but I have not seen any confirmation of it. Several prominent Macedonians were sent to Idrizovo as apparent 'bugarashi' when all they sought was a united Macedonia.

[sf.]

I can't remember the exact details, since it's been about 3-4 years since I've read the book. But, the accusations did seem to be aimed against Nikola's son. I think Brown relied on local testimonies, but I can't recall whether he corroborated this with state documents. Again, we're not talking about our own attitudes but possible reasons why the name might have been deliberately omitted.

[freifrau]

Freifrau wrote:
I don't think that an ethnic symbol can be monopolized by a party.
Maybe the party should modify it a bit (adding some letters,or changing the shape..)

I believe tha strongest opposition would be from the Albanian minority who feels that is not represented by the Lion symbol.


Julie wrote:
Once again, you seem extremely pro -Albanian, and it has nothing to do with me being a nice and quiet Macedonian girl. I am a proud Macedonian. period.

…i also find freifrau stupid and insulting


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Do you have reading or understanding problems?
Maybe you should think to finish school.

[freifrau]

Originally Posted by sf.

julie, the clown questioned the purpose of this site and proceeded to demean us. The purpose of the MTO is clear. We are not here to indulge outsiders and be patronised by them. We are here to empower ourselves, as a first step in the long struggle faced by our people ahead. If others don't like this, then to quote you: "neka puknat."

Cheers

"Don't knock masturbation — it's sex with someone I love"

Woody Allen.


----
(I am pretty sure that you are completely unable to understand the really simple metaphorical meaning of my post)

[BigMak]

Originally Posted by freifrau

Freifrau wrote:
I don't think that an ethnic symbol can be monopolized by a party.
Maybe the party should modify it a bit (adding some letters,or changing the shape..)

I believe tha strongest opposition would be from the Albanian minority who feels that is not represented by the Lion symbol.


Julie wrote:
Once again, you seem extremely pro -Albanian, and it has nothing to do with me being a nice and quiet Macedonian girl. I am a proud Macedonian. period.

…i also find freifrau stupid and insulting


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Do you have reading or understanding problems?
Maybe you should think to finish school.

Personally I could not care less what a foreigner (albanians) think. It maybe a goo idea to get the Albanians into a state funded project to train them into respecting the Country they choose to call home.

One good way (Zatvor) and hard labor for a minimum of 10 years would be good. And if that doesn't work, a bulldozer and a mass grave could be a brilliant inexpensive option