The Macedonian Sun & (Original) Flag

[Karposh]

Originally Posted by Chicho Makedonski

The middle of the Macedonian sun symbol is very important. It is the centre of a opium poppy flower and it is part of the Macedonian symbol as Macedonia produces the highest quantity of opium in the world, therefore showing that poppy flowers were common throughout Macedonia, and Macedonians used it to signify their strong connection to Macedonia’s nature.

Sounds like the Ancient Macedonians knew good shit when they saw it. I've never tripped out on opium before but perhaps that explains the blue poppy.

Originally Posted by Chicho Makedonski

I believe Greeks used the 16 pointed star in order to honour the mythical Greek god of the sun - Helios.

Their explanation on Wikipedia refers to the rays of the sun as representing the gods of Olympus. The Greek god Apollo also has a representation of the Macedonian sun on his head but with many more rays.

Originally Posted by Chicho Makedonski

This is not the Macedonian sun and it was never considered as a national symbol of the Greeks, but it’s rays are identical to the Macedonian symbol except without the poppy in the middle. This is why I believe the poppy is important to show the difference between the two close looking symbols, albeit with different meanings, as the rays on the Macedonian sun represent the Macedonian tribes of Ancient Macedonia which was the cultural symbol of the Macedonians.

So the "poppy" is the defining factor in all of this. Interesting...Stick with it if you like but it's still just your theory.

Originally Posted by Chicho Makedonski

Macedonians at times didn’t have a poppy in the middle to just showcase the sun by itself, but in other illustrations the poppy is evident.

The poppy again...What if it's bolivatch (chamomile). it is abundant in Macedonia as well and everyone knows of its medicinal properties.

[Chicho Makedonski]

Originally Posted by Karposh

Sounds like the Ancient Macedonians knew good shit when they saw it. I've never tripped out on opium before but perhaps that explains the blue poppy.


Their explanation on Wikipedia refers to the rays of the sun as representing the gods of Olympus. The Greek god Apollo also has a representation of the Macedonian sun on his head but with many more rays.


So the "poppy" is the defining factor in all of this. Interesting...Stick with it if you like but it's still just your theory.


The poppy again...What if it's bolivatch (chamomile). it is abundant in Macedonia as well and everyone knows of its medicinal properties.

It cannot be the gods of Olympus because the symbol started off with 6 rays and gradually grew to 16. The god of the sun - Helios is more practical but even then it was clearly only a religious symbol for them and not a cultural/highly important one, since they didn’t use it much. The Macedonians didn’t use the sun symbol to honour Helios, but to showcase the amount of tribes that were part of Ancient Macedonia.

I’m intrigued to know the difference between the 16 pointed sun ‘sydney’ shared to us on the link and the Macedonian sun. The only difference I find is that on some illustrations the poppy is present at the core of the Macedonian sun. So please tell me another differentiating factor between the two close symbols (in looks, not meaning), since you seem to be against the flower in the middle.

It’s not chamomile as it doesnt resemble it. I’ve already explained it’s the centre of an opium poppy flower due to the large quantity of opium Macedonia produces, poppy’s were obviously common in Macedonia and the Macedonians clearly regarded them as important and a symbol of Macedonia’s nature.

[Karposh]

I really didn't set out to antagonise you Chich but your tone suggests that perhaps I have. Whatever. You are defending a couple of positions here like they were foregone and indisputable conclusions made by world-renowned academics. They're not. They're just your own (and maybe your mates') fringe theories and ideas.

Clearly, my sarcasm is lost on you in much of what I had to say earlier and you seem to be arguing with me as though I'm defending some Greek point of view on the Macedonian sun or that I have my own personal theory on what type of flower the rosette might actually be.

I know the poppy has a place in Macedonian folklore. It's even depicted on our shitty coat of arms..I get it. But you are delusional if you think the decorative turquoise blue rosette, that was seen for the first time on a burial casket in Kutlesh, was anything more than decorative when they discovered it all those years ago or that it definitely has to be a poppy. Can you not see that? Maybe you can convince me if you can show me a blue poppy in existence anywhere in nature. Or, better still, show me another example, other than the burial casket from the main burial chamber from Kutlesh, which has a similar rosette. Every other depiction of the Macedonian sun that I have seen besides the Kutlesh one do not have the flower (sorry, the poppy) in the middle. From ancient Macedonian coins to shields, it's always a solid disc. Are these maybe Greek in origin as they do not have the flower in the middle to distinguish them as Macedonian (according to your theory)?

Incidentally, the other burial casket, from the adjoining burial chamber in Kutlesh, also bore the Macedonian sun. However, no flower and...only 12 rays. This kind of goes against what your saying, don't you think. Was it 12 tribes or 16?

[Rogi]

I'd always understood it to be a geranium, the locally found 'здравец' , long said to bring good health.

[Momce Makedonce]

I never really knew what the blue in the middle of the Macedonian sun was either, I assumed it was some sort of decoration. Then I watched a video from Mario's History Talks where he talks about the blue centre and Macedonian's high opium levels.

He talks about it around 2:26 in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBsLBsOuPWU

The centre of the poppy flower shown in the video definitely resembles the blue centre of the Macedonian Sun. Is it coincidence? Who knows but there doesn't seem to really be any other explanation apart from it being decorative, so I would say it's a pretty decent case to be made that it is a poppy flower.

[Chicho Makedonski]

Originally Posted by Karposh

I really didn't set out to antagonise you Chich but your tone suggests that perhaps I have. Whatever. You are defending a couple of positions here like they were foregone and indisputable conclusions made by world-renowned academics. They're not. They're just your own (and maybe your mates') fringe theories and ideas.

Clearly, my sarcasm is lost on you in much of what I had to say earlier and you seem to be arguing with me as though I'm defending some Greek point of view on the Macedonian sun or that I have my own personal theory on what type of flower the rosette might actually be.

I know the poppy has a place in Macedonian folklore. It's even depicted on our shitty coat of arms..I get it. But you are delusional if you think the decorative turquoise blue rosette, that was seen for the first time on a burial casket in Kutlesh, was anything more than decorative when they discovered it all those years ago or that it definitely has to be a poppy. Can you not see that? Maybe you can convince me if you can show me a blue poppy in existence anywhere in nature. Or, better still, show me another example, other than the burial casket from the main burial chamber from Kutlesh, which has a similar rosette. Every other depiction of the Macedonian sun that I have seen besides the Kutlesh one do not have the flower (sorry, the poppy) in the middle. From ancient Macedonian coins to shields, it's always a solid disc. Are these maybe Greek in origin as they do not have the flower in the middle to distinguish them as Macedonian (according to your theory)?

Incidentally, the other burial casket, from the adjoining burial chamber in Kutlesh, also bore the Macedonian sun. However, no flower and...only 12 rays. This kind of goes against what your saying, don't you think. Was it 12 tribes or 16?

Decorative or not, the point is the poppy was clearly seen as important to the Macedonians to put it at the centre of the symbol on Philip II’s casket.

The flower in the middle resembles the centre of an opium poppy flower. There’s opium poppy flowers that have a blue/aqua stem with a blue/aqua head.

By meaning, the Macedonian sun differed from the 16 pointed star found in the supposed ‘Mycenaean-era tomb’ and any other sun with rays the Greeks rarely used. But by looks, the 16 pointed sun found in the supposed ‘Mycenaean-era tomb’ looks virtually the same as the Macedonian sun, which is why i am saying its important to know the meaning/difference between the two close symbols.

Personally I’m against the idea to abandon the poppy flower in the middle considering it was placed on one of Macedonia’s finest kings casket. But when I see the Macedonian sun without the flower that’s fine also as it’s dedicated to the Macedonian tribes. Just personally I’d rather it with the poppy flower.

I know it was mostly just a solid circle at the centre of the Macedonian sun, as it’s purpose is to resemble a sun with its rays depicting how many tribes were part of Ancient Macedonia.

The other burial chamber was possibly dedicated to someone who died when Ancient Macedonia only had 12 tribes as opposed to the completed 16.

So with your logic (being against the poppy flower and 16 rays representing the tribes) what explanation do you have for the changes in rays overtime? Clearly it meant something to change the amount of rays as Ancient Macedonia grew.

While for the Greeks they just used the sun to most likely honour Helios and the rays clearly didn’t represent anything because there’s illustrations of Helios with over 20 rays and also just 6 behind his head, when all Helios is, is a mythical god that’s not real. The sun rays were used like a decorative crown and the amount of rays didn’t matter. There’s also Ancient Greek art which shows different amount of poorly painted suns similar to the Macedonian sun with rays from 6 to over 20 with no recorded growth of anything (tribes, city state alliances etc). This shows the rays didn’t represent anything for them and were just used for decoration.

[sydney]

The unfortunate fact for Macedonians is that a unified viewpoint on our history is still developing, and therefore we have all these theories as to why things are the way they are.

Chicho, considering the above, can you please provide some links referencing the poppy was a royal symbol and that the sun’s rays were representative of Macedonian tribes? I’ve never heard of either of these before.

[Karposh]

Hi MM, I think Mario seems like a nice enough and like-able sort of guy with a humble head on his shoulders that doesn't get ahead of himself too much. I've actually watched quite a few of his videos and I tend to agree with much of what he has to say.

With regard to the poppy being the root word of "Makedonija", it's just a personal theory of his, as he points out from the start and, like I mentioned to Chich, there is nothing wrong with proposing ideas and theories. That's all fine. I just find it problematic when people forget that they are just theories and often arrogantly hold onto them as though they were facts. I don't think Mario is so arrogant as to claim that his stated theory is the truth but is simply offering another possible position. The rosette/zravets/or, poppy in this case, that was uncovered in Kutlesh is, as far as I know, the only representation of this sunburst/rosette combination. I have yet to see a similar combination. Every other depiction of the Macedonian sun that I have seen does not have this so-called poppy on them. I also made the point regarding the other burial casket from Kutlesh which doesn't have this zdravets/poppy/daisy (or whatever it might be) on the sunburst. So, it can't have been that important.

Mario has also made a video regarding the number of rays on the Macedonian sun and their supposed meaning. I'm not sure if Chich got the idea from Mario's theory regarding this as well, but he seems to attribute the number of rays as representing the number of Macedonian tribes. This theory falls over again when with the second burial casket from Kutlesh, which contradicts this theory as well.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people having a stab at trying to understand the things we don't really have any idea about. You don't have to be a world renowned academic, as I sarcastically mentioned in one of my previous posts, to have an opinion but, at the same time, these must be taken with a grain of salt and a dash of humility. In his video, Mario says that the word Makedonija is a combination of Mak -The Poppy and Dno - Bottom (or land/soil) which, when put together - Mak'dno means "land of the poppy". Interesting theory but there's also other theories that suggest Makedonija simply means "motherland" from Majka and Dno. Interestingly, the ancient Greek god of the seas, Poseidon, has been etymologised by some Macedonians to mean "Poseduvach na Dnoto" i.e. "Keeper of the Ocean Floor". I love this theory. It even sounds plausible in Macedonian etymology. As does the word Odyssey (Odi Si in Macedonian means "To Go Away"), the title of Homer's epic poem about a someone's journey home.

Anyway, that's all I think I have to say on the matter regarding the little blue flower on the Macedonian sun and I still maintain that it doesn't belong there. The only way I could possibly change my mind would be if I see enough credible evidence to suggests that it signified or meant anything more to the Ancient Macedonians than a simple decorative motif, not disimilar to the fleur de lis , another common Macedonian decorative relief which can also be seen on the same burial casket from Kutlesh.

[Karposh]

The plot thickens on the poppy it would seem...

Not to seem pig-headed, I did some of my own research on the this plant and it looks as though there is some evidence to suggest that it can be linked to the burial casket from Kutlesh. From Wikipedia:

Poppies have long been used as a symbol of sleep, peace, and death: Sleep because the opium extracted from them is a sedative, and death because of the common blood-red color of the red poppy in particular. In Greek and Roman myths, poppies were used as offerings to the dead. Poppies used as emblems on tombstones symbolize eternal sleep. This symbolism was evoked in the children's novel The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, in which a magical poppy field threatened to make the protagonists sleep forever. A second interpretation of poppies in Classical mythology is that the bright scarlet color signifies a promise of resurrection after death.

Reading this, I am open-minded enough to the idea that it might in fact be a poppy as the symbolism of this plant was clearly associated with death and eternal sleep. That probably explains why you don't see it on coins and shields but, so far, only on burial caskets. I still wouldn't stick it on the Macedonian flag though since, clearly, the poppy was symbolic with death more than it was with being Macedonian. It was the sun that represented the Macedonian identity not the poppy.

This is becoming really interesting because, if it is a poppy, then you have a very symbolic depiction of death, darkness and eternal sleep, symbolised by the poppy, superimposed on the symbol of life, the sun.

BTW, I was stunned to see a blue poppy (Himalayan Blue Poppy) in the images at the end of the Wikipwedia article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy

[Momce Makedonce]

Originally Posted by Karposh

Hi MM, I think Mario seems like a nice enough and like-able sort of guy with a humble head on his shoulders that doesn't get ahead of himself too much. I've actually watched quite a few of his videos and I tend to agree with much of what he has to say.

With regard to the poppy being the root word of "Makedonija", it's just a personal theory of his, as he points out from the start and, like I mentioned to Chich, there is nothing wrong with proposing ideas and theories. That's all fine. I just find it problematic when people forget that they are just theories and often arrogantly hold onto them as though they were facts. I don't think Mario is so arrogant as to claim that his stated theory is the truth but is simply offering another possible position. The rosette/zravets/or, poppy in this case, that was uncovered in Kutlesh is, as far as I know, the only representation of this sunburst/rosette combination. I have yet to see a similar combination. Every other depiction of the Macedonian sun that I have seen does not have this so-called poppy on them. I also made the point regarding the other burial casket from Kutlesh which doesn't have this zdravets/poppy/daisy (or whatever it might be) on the sunburst. So, it can't have been that important.

Mario has also made a video regarding the number of rays on the Macedonian sun and their supposed meaning. I'm not sure if Chich got the idea from Mario's theory regarding this as well, but he seems to attribute the number of rays as representing the number of Macedonian tribes. This theory falls over again when with the second burial casket from Kutlesh, which contradicts this theory as well.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people having a stab at trying to understand the things we don't really have any idea about. You don't have to be a world renowned academic, as I sarcastically mentioned in one of my previous posts, to have an opinion but, at the same time, these must be taken with a grain of salt and a dash of humility. In his video, Mario says that the word Makedonija is a combination of Mak -The Poppy and Dno - Bottom (or land/soil) which, when put together - Mak'dno means "land of the poppy". Interesting theory but there's also other theories that suggest Makedonija simply means "motherland" from Majka and Dno. Interestingly, the ancient Greek god of the seas, Poseidon, has been etymologised by some Macedonians to mean "Poseduvach na Dnoto" i.e. "Keeper of the Ocean Floor". I love this theory. It even sounds plausible in Macedonian etymology. As does the word Odyssey (Odi Si in Macedonian means "To Go Away"), the title of Homer's epic poem about a someone's journey home.

Anyway, that's all I think I have to say on the matter regarding the little blue flower on the Macedonian sun and I still maintain that it doesn't belong there. The only way I could possibly change my mind would be if I see enough credible evidence to suggests that it signified or meant anything more to the Ancient Macedonians than a simple decorative motif, not disimilar to the fleur de lis , another common Macedonian decorative relief which can also be seen on the same burial casket from Kutlesh.

Hey Karposh, I only linked that video for the part where he compares the centre of the Macedonian sun with the poppy centre and how similar they look. I know that his theory on the root of the name Macedonia is his personal one and that there is several others out there. I agree that theories are not always set in stone and shouldn't be held as fact unless there is substantial evidence.

In terms of the Kutlesh discoveries is it possible the one burial that has the sun with less rays was from an earlier time period? I have heard that the rays on the Macedonian sun represent the number of Macedonian tribes multiple times both from Mario's History Talks but also other instances. I don't really know where it comes from and whether it's from some evidence or theory, I would have to let someone with more knowledge on the subject enlighten me.

I guess the question has to be asked if the blue in the centre of the sun isn't a poppy what exactly is it and why was it included? Why add a blue pattern into the centre of a symbol representing the sun? It could be simply decorative and not much else in it as you say, alternatively it could be there for a more meaningful reason. Quite an interesting mystery. The number of rays is another interesting area that I would love some more information about.

Do you just not like the way the Macedonian Sun looks with the blue in the middle or is it the fact it's not seen on every version of the Sun that has been found so you think it's unnecessary? I guess some people would definitely have a preference, I actually don't mind either version. I'm not familiar with the fleur di lis, was this also found in the Kutlesh burials?

I find this topic very interesting and wish we had more concrete information. If any member has some information on the above topics or the Macedonian sun in general don't hesitate to share.