The Macedonian Sun & (Original) Flag

[Stevce]

Hi Chicho, I would guess that as Amyntas 1 was a vassal for Darius, that Macedonian culture spread though out the Hellenic world. As the sun symbol can be found on ancient Paaeonian coins it would have changed styles though out the ages becoming absorbed by other cultures each with its own version on the sun.

[sydney]

Originally Posted by Chicho Makedonski

The Macedonians have used the Macedonian sun throughout history even in churches built in the 1200’s, to the modern Macedonians using it in the 1700’s/1800’s as Macedonian sun has been cultural symbol of the ethnic Macedonians since ancient times through the Macedonian sun representing the Macedonian tribes of Ancient Macedonia, showcasing that it’s a Macedonian symbol.

I’m interested as to why the Macedonian sun also features in some Ancient Greek art. Does anyone know why this was the case when it was the cultural symbol of the Macedonians and not the Greeks? Was it possibly due to the Macedonian invasion of the Greek city states and the Greeks drawing Macedonians as aggressors featuring the Macedonian symbol in order to distinctively prove the aggressors were the Macedonians? Or it could even be the Macedonians themselves spreading their cultural symbol wherever they pleased to show the Macedonians have been many places.

I’m not sure and I want to know if anyone here has any information about it.

I’d say it’s naive to think the sunburst was only revered by one tribe/people. Archaeology will continue to throw up questions such as this recent work which found a Mycenaean-era seal stone and a bronze disk displaying the 16 pointed sun/star: https://www.archaeology.org/issues/3...-warrior-grave

I believe Carlin also references this “Griffin Warrior” in another thread.

Further to the above, this article mentions it is rare to find the 16 pointed sun from Mycenaean times: https://www.sciencealert.com/breatht...-with-gold/amp

What is more unusual is a 16-pointed star - a symbol quite common in Greece from the 6th century BCE onward, but much less common as far back as the artefacts in the graves. It made an appearance on a second, unspecified bronze-and-gold artefact in the tombs too, the archaeologists said.
"It's rare," Stocker said. "There aren't many 16-pointed stars in Mycenaean iconography. The fact that we have two objects with 16 points in two different media (agate and gold) is noteworthy."

Ancient Balkan religion and culture placed great importance on the sun, moon, water, vegetation, etc. Predecessors of the Macedonians, such as the Paeonians, were sun-worshippers. I’d imagine sun-worship was not the exclusive domain of the Balkans. It’s a topic that warrants further research.

As for the 16 pointed sun in a modern context, we’re the only ones that have used it symbolically - and culturally - to unite a people, regardless of where they are, on a path to identity and independence.

[Karposh]

From the Balkans to the upper-most reaches of northern Afghanistan, archaeologists have dug up depictions of similar and identical solar symbols as the 16, 12 and even 8-ray sun symbols we know today as being the exclusive hallmark of the Ancient Macedonian ethnic and cultural identity.

There’s no question that the symbol was often used in the ancient world by others but what is quite evident is that it was the Ancient Macedonians that adopted this very same symbol as the national trademark for their Ancient Macedonian ethnic identity, culture and militaristic superiority.

Besides depictions on various Ancient Greek artefacts that apparently date from before the time of Alexander and Philip, there are also depictions of this symbol on Ancient Persian religious reliefs. In fact, there is a bit of a debate currently going on as to whether the Ancient Macedonians adopted the symbol from the Persians or, indeed, was it vice-versa?

So, in the context of this debate, the ridiculousness of Greece trademarking the “Vergina Sun” as an official Greek symbol is absolutely pathetic. As are the people who agreed to it from the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). As if the sun is exclusively Greek.

Following is a depiction of the 16-ray Macedonian sun symbol on a silver plate that was excavated at a site in northern Afghanistan. It depicts the goddess Cybele on her chariot which is drawn by lions. However, I’m more inclined to believe that this is in fact Macedonian influence over the Bactrian people rather than the other way around. The Macedonian symbology is inescapable – the lions and the sun.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...PlateSharp.jpg

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Sun worship was pretty common globally.

[Chicho Makedonski]

Originally Posted by sydney

I’d say it’s naive to think the sunburst was only revered by one tribe/people. Archaeology will continue to throw up questions such as this recent work which found a Mycenaean-era seal stone and a bronze disk displaying the 16 pointed sun/star: https://www.archaeology.org/issues/3...-warrior-grave

I believe Carlin also references this “Griffin Warrior” in another thread.

Further to the above, this article mentions it is rare to find the 16 pointed sun from Mycenaean times: https://www.sciencealert.com/breatht...-with-gold/amp



Ancient Balkan religion and culture placed great importance on the sun, moon, water, vegetation, etc. Predecessors of the Macedonians, such as the Paeonians, were sun-worshippers. I’d imagine sun-worship was not the exclusive domain of the Balkans. It’s a topic that warrants further research.

As for the 16 pointed sun in a modern context, we’re the only ones that have used it symbolically - and culturally - to unite a people, regardless of where they are, on a path to identity and independence.

I tend to not believe in a lot of this archaeological research where they PREDICT the age of certain artefacts. It’s all based on predictions and thus cannot be trusted, especially with stuff from thousands of years ago. The archaeologists all do it for popularity, exposure and money. No one truely knows the age of certain artefacts.

The sun was never a national symbol to any of the ancient people’s apart from the Macedonians who virtually used it everywhere as it’s been the cultural symbol of the Macedonians since ancient times which represents the Macedonians tribes of Ancient Macedonia. The 16 pointed star found in the supposed ‘Mycenaean-era tomb’ does not represent the Macedonian sun but more so just the sun in the sky as it was never known to be a national symbol of the Greeks and also there is no poppy in the centre like the Macedonian symbol portrays.

Hypothetically, even if 16 pointed stars are found in Ancient Greek tombs before the formation of the Macedonian kingdom it doesn’t prove that the symbol was Greek because it was never used as a national symbol by the Greeks and it’s known that the Macedonians exclusively used it everywhere since ancient times as a national symbol with a poppy at the centre of which the so called ‘Mycenaean-era tomb’ doesn’t have. To the Greeks it was simply a sun which probably represented the god of the sun - Helios.

The eventual growth of the Macedonian sun from 6,8,12 to 16 rays represents the amount of tribes which made up Ancient Macedonia at different times and the poppy at the centre was used due to the large quantity of poppy’s in Macedonia which represent Macedonia’s nature. The Macedonian sun has nothing to do with Helios as there are no poppy’s found on Helios sculptures.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

I believe the sun was utilised as a symbol in the Americas

[Carlin]

Bronze shield in the name of King Pharnaces I of Pontus (lived 2nd century BC), the fifth king of the Kingdom of Pontus:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-_80.AC.60.jpg

The Kingdom of Pontus was centered in the historical region of Pontus and ruled by the Mithridatic dynasty of Persian origin, which may have been directly related to Darius the Great and the Achaemenid dynasty. It lasted until its conquest by the Roman Republic in roughly 63 AD. The region of Pontus was originally part of the Persian satrapy of Cappadocia (Katpatuka).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Pontus

[Carlin]

Unrelated - but many of the coins of Ptolemy III, the "pharaoh" of Egypt, bear the 'Christian' chi-rho XP symbol. Ptolemy III ruled from 246-222 BC, some 300 years before anything approaching the traditions of Christianity had been devised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho

[Karposh]

Originally Posted by Chicho Makedonski

...and also there is no poppy in the centre like the Macedonian symbol portrays.

...the Macedonians exclusively used it everywhere since ancient times as a national symbol with a poppy at the centre

...and the poppy at the centre was used due to the large quantity of poppy’s in Macedonia which represent Macedonia’s nature. The Macedonian sun has nothing to do with Helios as there are no poppy’s found on Helios sculptures.

The turquoise-blue "rosette" in the middle of the sun's disk that was discovered in Kutlesh back in the 70' has often been described as the "zdravets flower" by many Macedonians with many theories to go with it as to what it actually signifies or represents. I have to admit, the "poppy" is a new one for me. My personal opinion is that all of this is speculation and, rather than having any special national or cultural significance, it was purely used as a decorative motif...Nothing more. People need to realise that what is important is the sun symbol itself and not the flower in the middle. Many Macedonians, including myself until very recently, put too much emphasis on this flower/rosette. It's a nothing motif and I personally think it detracts from the symbol itself. But, unfortunately, it has been religiously guarded by many Macedonians in Australia and can be found on virtually every Macedonian flag in Australia. If the 16-ray Macedonian sun ever makes its way back on the flag of Macedonia again, I would hate to see this rosette stuck in the middle. The solid yellow disk is enough. There is absolutely no need to stick anything in the middle.

Originally Posted by Chicho Makedonski

The eventual growth of the Macedonian sun from 6,8,12 to 16 rays represents the amount of tribes which made up Ancient Macedonia at different times

Nothing wrong with proposing a theory my friend...It's better than the Greek's theory - the Gods of Olympus apparently. But, that's all they are, theories. No one knows why the Macedonians adopted this particular symbol to represent their national heritage but I'm glad they did because it is beautiful and there's no other flag like it in the world. The 16-ray Macedonian sun on a blood red background is, by far, the most beautiful flag in the world.

[Chicho Makedonski]

Originally Posted by Karposh

The turquoise-blue "rosette" in the middle of the sun's disk that was discovered in Kutlesh back in the 70' has often been described as the "zdravets flower" by many Macedonians with many theories to go with it as to what it actually signifies or represents. I have to admit, the "poppy" is a new one for me. My personal opinion is that all of this is speculation and, rather than having any special national or cultural significance, it was purely used as a decorative motif...Nothing more. People need to realise that what is important is the sun symbol itself and not the flower in the middle. Many Macedonians, including myself until very recently, put too much emphasis on this flower/rosette. It's a nothing motif and I personally think it detracts from the symbol itself. But, unfortunately, it has been religiously guarded by many Macedonians in Australia and can be found on virtually every Macedonian flag in Australia. If the 16-ray Macedonian sun ever makes its way back on the flag of Macedonia again, I would hate to see this rosette stuck in the middle. The solid yellow disk is enough. There is absolutely no need to stick anything in the middle.

Nothing wrong with proposing a theory my friend...It's better than the Greek's theory - the Gods of Olympus apparently. But, that's all they are, theories. No one knows why the Macedonians adopted this particular symbol to represent their national heritage but I'm glad they did because it is beautiful and there's no other flag like it in the world. The 16-ray Macedonian sun on a blood red background is, by far, the most beautiful flag in the world.

The middle of the Macedonian sun symbol is very important. It is the centre of a opium poppy flower and it is part of the Macedonian symbol as Macedonia produces the highest quantity of opium in the world, therefore showing that poppy flowers were common throughout Macedonia, and Macedonians used it to signify their strong connection to Macedonia’s nature.

I believe Greeks used the 16 pointed star in order to honour the mythical Greek god of the sun - Helios. This is not the Macedonian sun and it was never considered as a national symbol of the Greeks, but it’s rays are identical to the Macedonian symbol except without the poppy in the middle. This is why I believe the poppy is important to show the difference between the two close looking symbols, albeit with different meanings, as the rays on the Macedonian sun represent the Macedonian tribes of Ancient Macedonia which was the cultural symbol of the Macedonians.

Macedonians at times didn’t have a poppy in the middle to just showcase the sun by itself, but in other illustrations the poppy is evident.